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Thread: wedding shots with flash?

  1. #21
    Senior Member Anson's Avatar
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    Default Re: wedding shots with flash?

    Quote Originally Posted by surrephoto View Post
    Shooting an AD without flash is possible if you know what you're doing. But for many cases we need to use flash to assure a large depth-of-field for groupshots etc.
    Bro, that why you are using a prime with ISO to isolate the subject. But I doubt many pro paid-photographer (if there isn't a second PG) would bravely say that they are not using his/her flash in all their traditional Chinese AD wedding dinner shots. Especially if he/her need to take table-shots (please correct me if I am wrong).

    If the PG were to chose to shoot at wide open, even with a 24mm @F1.4 in a FF you would have the two row of guest. Due to the size & dim-lighting condition of most restaurant in Singapore. Unless he is really to shoot in high ISO and do alot of PP later.

  2. #22

    Default Re: wedding shots with flash?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anson View Post
    Bro, that why you are using a prime with ISO to isolate the subject. But I doubt many pro paid-photographer (if there isn't a second PG) would bravely say that they are not using his/her flash in all their traditional Chinese AD wedding dinner shots. Especially if he/her need to take table-shots (please correct me if I am wrong).

    If the PG were to chose to shoot at wide open, even with a 24mm @F1.4 in a FF you would have the two row of guest. Due to the size & dim-lighting condition of most restaurant in Singapore. Unless he is really to shoot in high ISO and do alot of PP later.
    With regards to traditional table shots, flash is a must even for myself... but once I worked with a well-regarded photographer on clubsnap who uses D700 and he told me that he bumps ISO to shoot table-shots without flash.

    I was indeed taken aback.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Anson's Avatar
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    Default Re: wedding shots with flash?

    Quote Originally Posted by surrephoto View Post
    With regards to traditional table shots, flash is a must even for myself... but once I worked with a well-regarded photographer on clubsnap who uses D700 and he told me that he bumps ISO to shoot table-shots without flash.

    I was indeed taken aback.
    Given the dim lighting conditions, possible that he is shooting more than ISO 3200. of course after PP it's possible but I would think alot of details had been lost.

    Any bros out there do take traditional wedding table shots without flash? Care to share your thoughts with us?

  4. #24

    Default Re: wedding shots with flash?

    Quote Originally Posted by surrephoto View Post
    Shooting an AD without flash is possible if you know what you're doing. But for many cases we need to use flash to assure a large depth-of-field for groupshots etc.

    Making sure your light is well spread out is very important as well. As bro hanqiang has spoke about ceiling bounce, i will add on that ceiling bounce can also be combined with a decent catch-light/bounce card especially for groupshots. Good example of a diffuser that does such would be the press-lite vertex and the demb flip-it.

    As clients are mostly not tech-savvy, they expect the scene to look similar between real-life and photos; Ceiling bounce recreates this effect by simulating ceiling light, and a bounce card can help to add fill and flavour.

    Other situations such as tea ceremony will require a mainly ceiling bounce light to prevent the closer subject from being over-exposed. Lightsphere/whail-tail would be the worse choice for scenes with uneven lines of subjects.

    I'm someone who favors flashless photography even at dinners because these reasons;

    1. White-balance trauma even when using gels in varying hotel lighting.
    2. Danger of flash refreshing too slowly especially for march-ins.
    3. Un-natural front-lit look when using flash as the primary light.

    A good example of me shooting with my 85 f1.2 wide-open with AI servo for a march-in;





    Recently, I and a friend had to shoot a wedding dinner together and was extremely irritated by a videographer and his video-light (I'm a regular wedding videographer and generally see no reason to use video-light in most situations, i'm sure some vgs out there will disagree with me).

    He used a white LED light in a tungsten dinner environment and caused our white balance to be heavily thrown off...

    I'm also surprised by why the videographer is disturbed by flash from the photographer.
    nice clean shoot of the above.
    due to the poor iso performance on my D90, i been reading up on the advantage of FX. ok, OT abit. coming back to this point.

    i do agree, coming back to the promise of IQ to be delivered to clients, clean sharp shot pics, flash indeed helped alot.

    as a second PG, but been a first timer, my gut and inexperience really taught mi plenty of an AD scenario. As for the VG, whom I never worked with, because of me, I guessed he had to edit his video quite a bit due to my flash..

  5. #25

    Default Re: wedding shots with flash?

    High ISO can be use if your exposure is correct.

  6. #26

    Default Re: wedding shots with flash?

    hi

    if we focus on just wedding dinner march in, there are a few other considerations whether to use or not use flash

    1) Availability of restaurant spot-light. Most high end hotels (4-stars and above) have special lights that can beam on the couple and chase them as they march in. Hence both yourself and VG dun need to throw in more light. Use restaurant light where possible for that nice special glamour look

    2) VG light. VG light can be useful. Having that light is better than nothing. This is because our dslr camera flash goes in every direction while VG's light is more directed. Again VG light looks more glamorous than your DSLR flash.

    It would be ideal if u can deliver shots of all combinations of light in that march-in (with/without flash and using restaurant/vg light). It can be done. And train yourself to switch settings fast.

    Other than that, rehearse with your couple on how to march in properly. This is more impt than all the light stuff.
    Last edited by earthling82; 21st December 2009 at 03:54 PM.

  7. #27

    Default Re: wedding shots with flash?

    i know guys (or a whole company of them) who depend on high ISO. (rather they shoot exclusively on high ISO 3200)

    its possible to shoot without flash (even for table shots) for ISO3200. but that will have some shadow on the faces. sometimes the table under the lamp or chandelier den the guest will have extra "eye bag". not impossible to remove, but easier to correct with fill in flash.

    and with fill in flash + high ISO, there is no longer a need to meticulously/deliberately compose the table shot w/o the table with the white table cloth. coz fill in flash wont be strong enough to blow the white there.

  8. #28

    Default Re: wedding shots with flash?

    Quote Originally Posted by earthling82 View Post
    hi

    if we focus on just wedding dinner march in, there are a few other considerations whether to use or not use flash

    1) Availability of restaurant spot-light. Most high end hotels (4-stars and above) have special lights that can beam on the couple and chase them as they march in. Hence both yourself and VG dun need to throw in more light. Use restaurant light where possible for that nice special glamour look

    2) VG light. VG light can be useful. Having that light is better than nothing. This is because our dslr camera flash goes in every direction while VG's light is more directed. Again VG light looks more glamorous than your DSLR flash.

    It would be ideal if u can deliver shots of all combinations of light in that march-in (with/without flash and using restaurant/vg light). It can be done. And train yourself to switch settings fast.

    Other than that, rehearse with your couple on how to march in properly. This is more impt than all the light stuff.
    can be tricky in some ballrooms that sucks.

    eg: lagging light operator. march in till half den turn on spot light.
    eg: screwed up lights. 10spotlights line the path from the ceiling. straight down from the ceiling. makes the couple "phase-in, phase-out"

    so my experience is, unless you know the ballroom well, know where the lights are, told the spotlight operator not to lag, its easier to depend on using you flash as key light and ambient as fill.

  9. #29

    Default Re: wedding shots with flash?

    Quote Originally Posted by akagi07 View Post
    nice clean shoot of the above.
    due to the poor iso performance on my D90, i been reading up on the advantage of FX. ok, OT abit. coming back to this point.

    i do agree, coming back to the promise of IQ to be delivered to clients, clean sharp shot pics, flash indeed helped alot.

    as a second PG, but been a first timer, my gut and inexperience really taught mi plenty of an AD scenario. As for the VG, whom I never worked with, because of me, I guessed he had to edit his video quite a bit due to my flash..
    in regards to VG, will they be irritated by my flash? will it make their lives difficult?

    I really have no idea, as i have zero experience in editing. I do turn off my AF confirm sound and the IR AF beam when theres a VG around.. so their video wont have red flashes on people faces or irritating "DEDED!!!" when interviewing people.

  10. #30
    Member Cartman2000's Avatar
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    Default Re: wedding shots with flash?

    Quote Originally Posted by earthling82 View Post
    hi

    if we focus on just wedding dinner march in, there are a few other considerations whether to use or not use flash

    1) Availability of restaurant spot-light. Most high end hotels (4-stars and above) have special lights that can beam on the couple and chase them as they march in. Hence both yourself and VG dun need to throw in more light. Use restaurant light where possible for that nice special glamour look

    2) VG light. VG light can be useful. Having that light is better than nothing. This is because our dslr camera flash goes in every direction while VG's light is more directed. Again VG light looks more glamorous than your DSLR flash.

    It would be ideal if u can deliver shots of all combinations of light in that march-in (with/without flash and using restaurant/vg light). It can be done. And train yourself to switch settings fast.

    Other than that, rehearse with your couple on how to march in properly. This is more impt than all the light stuff.
    I beg to differ. On the contrary, VG light screws up the white balance of the picture especially if the VG uses a white/halogen light. Leaves horrid blue colour casts.

    On a sidenote, I've been to the Fullerton, Grand Hyatt and Four Seasons Hotel for recent weddings and I haven't seen any special spotlights that would enable me to go flashless unless I'm using a fast(larger than f2) lens.
    Last edited by Cartman2000; 21st December 2009 at 04:30 PM.

  11. #31

    Default Re: wedding shots with flash?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cartman2000 View Post
    I beg to differ. On the contrary, VG light screws up the white balance of the picture especially if the VG uses a white/halogen light. Leaves horrid blue colour casts.

    On a sidenote, I've been to the Fullerton, Grand Hyatt and Four Seasons Hotel for recent weddings and I haven't seen any special spotlights that would enable me to go flashless unless I'm using a fast(larger than f2) lens.
    This is a common issue it seems... to be honest the cure would simply be a CTO gel over the halogen light.

    Funny thing was that once a videographer said "I don't like my subjects orangey" when he used a halogen light in a tungsten environment. He seems to have no knowledge about WB whatsoever.

  12. #32
    Senior Member hanqiang1011's Avatar
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    Default Re: wedding shots with flash?

    Quote Originally Posted by surrephoto View Post
    With regards to traditional table shots, flash is a must even for myself... but once I worked with a well-regarded photographer on clubsnap who uses D700 and he told me that he bumps ISO to shoot table-shots without flash.

    I was indeed taken aback.
    Just make sure the shots were not yellowish or bluish due to color balance of the ambience lighting Playing around with WB, or safe AWB in RAW. But on the safe side, take both - with flash or without - if you have time.

    Talking about flash, I saw another group of photographer in the same wedding using Metz flash, the AF 58-1 I think for Canon. Was impressed by the secondary fill in light. Then saw the Nissin i866 (S$410) as well. How many using this both?

    Was quite surprised why Canon didnt have the fill in flash in 580EX II?

  13. #33

    Default Re: wedding shots with flash?

    Quote Originally Posted by surrephoto View Post
    This is a common issue it seems... to be honest the cure would simply be a CTO gel over the halogen light.

    Funny thing was that once a videographer said "I don't like my subjects orangey" when he used a halogen light in a tungsten environment. He seems to have no knowledge about WB whatsoever.
    this is a common issue. but you cant have control over the VG all the time. simple fix is to overpower the VG light with your flash

  14. #34
    Member azman's Avatar
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    Default Re: wedding shots with flash?

    Quote Originally Posted by IsenGrim View Post
    this is a common issue. but you cant have control over the VG all the time. simple fix is to overpower the VG light with your flash

    I think a way to move forward is to have both the VG and PG sit down and discuss some time before the event starts and come to an understanding. After all, both parties are hired by the same employer to capture the wedding in the best possible way.

    Why not work together instead of competing against each other ?

    Just my two cents
    .
    .
    Be humble, we'll be more open to learning.

  15. #35

    Default Re: wedding shots with flash?

    Quote Originally Posted by azman View Post
    I think a way to move forward is to have both the VG and PG sit down and discuss some time before the event starts and come to an understanding. After all, both parties are hired by the same employer to capture the wedding in the best possible way.

    Why not work together instead of competing against each other ?

    Just my two cents
    .
    .
    The problem lies in the fact that most photographers do not understand videography, and many videographers do not understand photography.

    I once had a photojournalistic wedding photographer telling me that my videography style was over-commanding, intrusive and not market sustainable. Imho, this fast and quick photojournalistic may not understand that videos involve a process. A photo is a frozen moment.

    Some examples;

    Wedding videographer A knows heck about measuring white balance and uses full AWB...
    Wedding videographer B uses a grey card...
    Wedding photographer C is shocked to know that videographers don't have RAW...
    Wedding photographer D is disgusted by the white halogen light in a tungsten dinner setting because he knows not even RAW can salvage the shot.

    If knowleadge isn't available, not a big amount of communication is possible. And yet, couples are paying big bucks for some of these guys.
    Last edited by surrephoto; 23rd December 2009 at 04:25 PM.

  16. #36
    Member azman's Avatar
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    Default Re: wedding shots with flash?

    .
    I agree with you Surrephoto. If one speaks Chicken and the other speaks Duck, we may have a problem...initially. But if both parties are willing to try and understand the other, I believe it's a step in the right direction.

    However, both the PGs and VGs must know their own stuff first. If not, we will be in greater trouble

    One of my clients held a meeting with the all the PGs, VGs, DJs, EmCees a few days before his wedding and during that meeting we managed to tie down many things like timings, cues, entry points, direction and speed marches etc. Inevitably, there were some hic-ups during the actual event but I think there could have been more if we did not have the meeting.

    Again, just my two cents
    .
    .
    Last edited by azman; 23rd December 2009 at 05:24 PM.
    Be humble, we'll be more open to learning.

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