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Thread: Is it possible to have too much bokeh?

  1. #41
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    Default Re: Is it possible to have too much bokeh?

    Quote Originally Posted by rendition View Post
    From Wiki, these is a picture that showcases the quality of the bokeh produced in the photo.



    ...and here's a link of a wedding photographer talking bout bokeh and DOF maybe his explanation would be clearer. But... just to be clear, am merely talking about quality of bokeh here and absolutely nothing to do with giving critique on how the photos posted on this thread. Bokeh, just bokeh.
    Bokeh definitely relates to background blur. Many website forum analysts always state "bokeh = (background blur)". I don't see the difference with this photo you posted and mine except that yours has very harsh background blur. Every lens with set aperture has certain DOF. Anything outside this DOF will be OOF and the "blur" depends on distances between object and background. Such blur effects are all background blur. Period. Why confuse?
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  2. #42
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    Default Re: Is it possible to have too much bokeh?

    Quote Originally Posted by soons View Post
    Maybe I would classify this kind of OOF that is bad quality.

    Source: http://sportsphotoguy.com/first-look...8-at-x-pro-dx/
    I will rather have it clear than OOF like this.
    This looks over-sharpened and gives the bokeh a very harsh yuckky feel to it.
    Panasonic FZ28 Shooter
    flickr

  3. #43
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    Default Re: Is it possible to have too much bokeh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony Lee View Post
    What do you think of this?

    Anthony, I think this is very nice. Maybe i'm bias because it's from a Pentax M135/2.8 lens. The colors are very rich though.
    Panasonic FZ28 Shooter
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  4. #44

    Default Re: Is it possible to have too much bokeh?

    Hi Everyone

    When I do a shoot, how'd I know the amount of OOF I want? I cannot really see it from the camera's LCD screen.

  5. #45

    Default Re: Is it possible to have too much bokeh?

    Quote Originally Posted by kinky1971 View Post
    When I do a shoot, how'd I know the amount of OOF I want? I cannot really see it from the camera's LCD screen.
    How are you not able to see the results on the preview screen? it should be visually obvious.

    you may attempt to perform "aperture bracketing" by snapping the same pic with different aperture values and decide which is best later.

  6. #46
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    Default Re: Is it possible to have too much bokeh?

    Quote Originally Posted by kinky1971 View Post
    Hi Everyone

    When I do a shoot, how'd I know the amount of OOF I want? I cannot really see it from the camera's LCD screen.
    From my experience, understanding your lens and how it behaves at every aperture is critical in getting the best out of the lens. Usually, the wider apertures will have narrower DOFs, and depending on your choice of subjects and composition, you shud be able to discern the use of one aperture over the other. The more you use the lens, the more you will understand its behaviour. There is no short cut. Hope this helps.
    Last edited by Anthony Lee; 4th December 2009 at 01:45 PM.
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  7. #47

    Default Re: Is it possible to have too much bokeh?

    for me it depends on the situation.

    if its travel protraits, I will like to include the beautiful background

    if its at a location where the background has lots of ugly clutter, then I will like to have lots of bokeh

  8. #48

    Default Re: Is it possible to have too much bokeh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Due biglietti View Post
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/doo3/

    cost aside, just enjoy the pictures as an art.
    check out the sets taken by the various lens.
    i was about to share his flickr.
    i love his photos, and checking his flickr daily too.

    he is probably very rich.

  9. #49

    Default Re: Is it possible to have too much bokeh?

    Hi rendition,

    Wikipedia....

    photography, bokeh is the blur,[1][2] or the aesthetic quality of the blur,[3][4][5] in out-of-focus areas of an image, or "the way the lens renders out-of-focus points of light."[6] Differences in lens aberrations and aperture shape cause some lens designs to blur the image in a way that is pleasing to the eye, while others produce blurring that is unpleasant or distracting— "good" or "bad" bokeh, respectively.[1] Bokeh occurs for parts of the scene that lie outside the depth of field. Photographers sometimes deliberately use a shallow focus technique to create images with prominent out-of-focus regions.

    Bokeh is often most visible around small background highlights, such as specular reflections and light sources, which is why it often associated with such areas.[1] However, bokeh is not limited to highlights, as blur occurs in all out-of-focus regions of the image.

    The two images above in 2 posts do not show the quality/character of bokeh at all but rather just images with very shallow depth of field. Very common confusion – Shallow DOF vs Bokeh, one is the 'method' of producing the latter.

    Bokeh is not just confine to specular reflections and light sources that produce those OOF donut shape lights , though often use by some to show what a bokeh is.....bokeh is there in your OOF area as long as you use a lens.

    The qualify of a Bokeh is dependent on the inherent design of the lens, every lens produce Blur/Bokeh be it good or bad ..... any argument on that?

    The DEGREE of this quality of the Blur/Bokeh to a certain extend are controllable:

    1.The distance of the OOF backdrop ( semi controllable )

    2.The distance of subject matter from the lens.( semi controllable)

    3.The aperture (DOF) ( Controllable)

    Since we are discussing the degree , how blur is the blur. As some deem that it is neccessary to have certain lens at wide open to do this good blur. I posted an example that it is not just the aperture alone , the design and fov also plays a part. In the case was a Tamron 180mm Macro lens withe a narrow 3 degree FOV at F/6.3, and the backdrop was a bush barely 3 feet away that produce that bokeh, it was just as an example to show that it is not just how wide an aperture one needs to have, other factors contribute to good creamy bokeh as well.

    How one's application of Bokeh is subjective. In that shot I wanted to totally isolate the butterfly , so the degree of the Bokeh is totally intended ( though not the Blur-est Blur), as my subject matter was the butterfly and not the Bokeh, the bokeh was deem to be of a nice shade and texture to complement the the main subject..... in the gerne of macro photography.

    As all lens has a "bokeh" and this OOF ""Blur"" is only visible beyond the DOF, you would not have bokeh unless it is out of focus which is controllable by the aperture. Agree?

    It beats me on how people classify this blur produce on a lens with inherent "' Bokeh "" when in Shallow DOF as not a Bokeh but a result of Shallow DOF....!!!???

    Perhaps some shots of How and what this class of "" Shallow DOF"" is differentiated from the ""True Bokeh"" would be much better and enlightening to "" Bokeh Sotong "" like me and a few others!

    To me even if it is taken with Shallow DOF , it is still a bokeh or if you like a magnification of the bokeh or blur .

    Cheers!
    Last edited by Bluesteel; 4th December 2009 at 04:53 PM.

  10. #50

    Default Re: Is it possible to have too much bokeh?

    I dont think there is something call too much bokeh. It really depends on the style and emphasis of the object you want to bring out. Bokeh for scenery? Bokeh for protrait? Lens with good bokeh is good, but often people using kit lens will have problem getting a nice bokeh. A good example of bad bokeh which i dislike is the photo posted with the little girl. =)

  11. #51

    Default Re: Is it possible to have too much bokeh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony Lee View Post
    From my experience, understanding your lens and how it behaves at every aperture is critical in getting the best out of the lens. Usually, the wider apertures will have narrower DOFs, and depending on your choice of subjects and composition, you shud be able to discern the use of one aperture over the other. The more you use the lens, the more you will understand its behaviour. There is no short cut. Hope this helps.
    That's what I figured. It's a pain in the ass though.

  12. #52

    Default Re: Is it possible to have too much bokeh?

    Hi all,

    Some claim that Bokeh is the quality of the blur and not how blur is the blur. While others claim , blur due to Shallow DOF is not Bokeh but DOF blur .

    I am so Blur or ""Bokeh"" that I have taken this shot 5 minutes ago to ask the all the "" Bokeh expert"" here . To those who can differentiate the blur due to shallow DOF is not Bokeh and those who understand True Bokeh must be from a single point light-source that produce donut shape or have some degree of perceived shades .



    Is this consider as Bokeh in your definition of the word?

    If yes, care to tell us what DOF or aperture it was recorded ?

    If not, could you enlighten all of us here as to why ?





    Last edited by Bluesteel; 4th December 2009 at 09:07 PM.

  13. #53

    Default Re: Is it possible to have too much bokeh?

    [QUOTE=Bluesteel;5661287]Hi all,
    Some claim that Bokeh is the quality of the blur and not how blur is the blur. While others claim , blur due to Shallow DOF is not Bokeh but DOF blur .
    /QUOTE]

    It's not a claim made by anyone here -- it's how the word is defined.

    Taken from the Oxford American Dictionary:

    bokeh |bōˈkā|
    noun Photography
    the visual quality of the out-of-focus areas of a photographic image, especially as rendered by a particular lens : a quick, visual survey of the foreground and background bokeh of a variety of lenses.
    ORIGIN from Japanese.

    If you accept that bokeh = quality of OOF areas,
    then 'better bokeh' = better quality of OOF areas
    but 'more bokeh' = more quality of OOF areas -- 'more quality' is grammatically incorrect, and even if you accept it, it would still mean 'better quality of OOF areas', and NOT 'more Out of Focus'

    Your shot looked like your aperture is maxed out. Is it a Zeiss by any chance? -- I only ask because my CZ 50/1.7 has the same slightly-off circular (rugby-ball shaped?) highlights when wide open.

  14. #54

    Default Re: Is it possible to have too much bokeh?

    Hi Edwin,

    I fully understand what the definition is , the quality of this blur ......, But I have doubt some do, and hence the claim and reference to site that state Bokeh and DOF Blur are of different thing. Try as I may I could not peg down this subtle differentiation from what I can understand, in that definition you quoted.

    The lens use is immaterial as some mentioned in one of the post . So My question on the image is :

    Is this shot consider a Bokeh or a shadow DOF Blur.


    Cheers!

    PS: It is not a Zeiss it is a Canon.
    Last edited by Bluesteel; 4th December 2009 at 10:44 PM.

  15. #55

    Default Re: Is it possible to have too much bokeh?

    I think one of the reasons the definition of bokeh is mixed up is that we often see only 'good bokeh' shots, never a comparison with a similar 'bad bokeh' version.

    There's a comparison between the Canon 50/1.4 and 50/1.8 at http://photo.net/equipment/canon/ef50/
    Bokeh comparisons towards the bottom.

    Even then, if you don't look closely, you might not see the difference (or you might not care!). So I took some shots earlier to show the difference (turns out my lenses are all pretty decent bokeh wise, so I had to 'simulate' a mirror lens! )

    Good Bokeh


    Bad Bokeh



    You might not see a great difference till we get to the crops...

    (cont'd)

  16. #56

    Default Re: Is it possible to have too much bokeh?

    The crops:

    Good Bokeh Crop 1


    Bad Bokeh Crop 1


    Good Bokeh Crop 2


    Bad Bokeh Crop 2


    It was a dull day, but you can see the difference esp in the flat windows. But also look at the OOF leaves -- there are disturbing, unpleasant patterns in the bad bokeh samples. It would be even more obvious if it was sunny.

    What is good bokeh and what is bad? It's subjective -- but the 'good examples' were taken with a Canon 85/1.8, which is generally considered at least decent bokeh-wise. For the 'bad' shots, I used the same lens, but simulated a catadioptric lens, which are generally regarded as pretty shitty for bokeh.

  17. #57
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    Default Re: Is it possible to have too much bokeh?

    bokeh |bōˈkā|
    noun Photography
    the visual quality of the out-of-focus areas of a photographic image, especially as rendered by a particular lens : a quick, visual survey of the foreground and background bokeh of a variety of lenses.
    ORIGIN from Japanese

    So 'bokeh' is a noun which stands for 'visual quality of the out-of-focus of a photographic image.......'. Therefore, any out-of-focus area of a photographic image can be termed 'bokeh', whether good or bad.

    Then, my question will be, why both 'bluesteel' post and mine were not classified as examples of photographic images with bokehs? And, what has the defination of the word bokeh help in the explanation of the difference between 'shallow DOF' and bokeh?

    By the way, this photo was shot indoor wide open with my CZ T* Plannar 50 f1.7.

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  18. #58
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    Default Re: Is it possible to have too much bokeh?

    Chill up everyone.....it is just bokeh....no too much or too little.....


  19. #59

    Default Re: Is it possible to have too much bokeh?

    Chill up everyone.....it is just bokeh....no too much or too little.....
    Hah. I have raised my white flag...

  20. #60
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    Default Re: Is it possible to have too much bokeh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leong23 View Post
    Chill up everyone.....it is just bokeh....no too much or too little.....

    Nice photo and great 'bokeh'.

    Cheers!
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