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Thread: Is it possible to have too much bokeh?

  1. #21

    Default Re: Is it possible to have too much bokeh?

    The two images above in 2 posts do not show the quality/character of bokeh at all but rather just images with very shallow depth of field. Very common confusion – Shallow DOF vs Bokeh, one is the 'method' of producing the latter.
    Last edited by rendition; 3rd December 2009 at 08:18 PM.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Is it possible to have too much bokeh?

    Quote Originally Posted by rendition View Post
    The two images above in 2 posts do not show the quality/character of bokeh at all but rather just images with very shallow depth of field. Very common confusion Shallow DOF vs Bokeh, one is the 'method' of producing the latter.
    Doesn't shallow depth of field produce background blur or bokeh?
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  3. #23

    Default Re: Is it possible to have too much bokeh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony Lee View Post
    Doesn't shallow depth of field produce background blur or bokeh?
    Often confused, but not the same. Bokeh is the quality of the background blur, NOT quantity.

    http://www.digicamhelp.com/taking-ph...hniques/bokeh/

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bokeh

  4. #24

    Default Re: Is it possible to have too much bokeh?

    Doesn't shallow depth of field produce background blur or bokeh?
    Shallow DOF does result in background blur but bokeh has little to do with the amount of blur. But rather, everything to do with the quality of the blur like those shiny little circles of light/highlights created in a blurred area outside the DOF. The shots posted show very shallow DOF, so shallow that the quality of bokeh can't really be 'seen'...

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Is it possible to have too much bokeh?

    Quote Originally Posted by rendition View Post
    Shallow DOF does result in background blur but bokeh has little to do with the amount of blur. But rather, everything to do with the quality of the blur like those shiny little circles of light/highlights created in a blurred area outside the DOF. The shots posted show very shallow DOF, so shallow that the quality of bokeh can't really be 'seen'...
    That was shot with a 135 on a cropped sensor. If I were to use a 50 to do a similar shot, the background would have been different. Different lens, especially of different focal length produce different type of "bokeh". In fact, I was testing this very old lens for its background blur quality. The object was 2 metres infront, the background was a car park with cars not more than 6 metres away. It was shot at f4 in broad daylight. IMO, this S$ 300 lens produces excellent bokeh than some of the more expensive modern lenses.
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  6. #26

    Default Re: Is it possible to have too much bokeh?

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/doo3/

    cost aside, just enjoy the pictures as an art.
    check out the sets taken by the various lens.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Is it possible to have too much bokeh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edwin Francis View Post
    Often confused, but not the same. Bokeh is the quality of the background blur, NOT quantity.

    http://www.digicamhelp.com/taking-ph...hniques/bokeh/

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bokeh
    Still very subjective. There is actually no such thing as a good bad thing. How blur is blur or sharp is your blur, the so to speak gurus of blur will try and teach you. They say 'bokeh' derives from blur but is not blur but how good is your blur.
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  8. #28

    Default Re: Is it possible to have too much bokeh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony Lee View Post
    Still very subjective. There is actually no such thing as a good bad thing. How blur is blur or sharp is your blur, the so to speak gurus of blur will try and teach you. They say 'bokeh' derives from blur but is not blur but how good is your blur.
    Yes, the bokeh or quality of the blurred areas is subjective. Not everyone will agree that Lens A has better bokeh than Lens B.
    What I was pointing out was merely the definition of the word, which is not subjective but subject to much confusion -- that was in response to your question "Doesn't shallow depth of field produce background blur or bokeh?"
    Shallow depth of field does not produce bokeh, but it can display or reveal the bokeh of the lens. I know some will call this nitpicking, but it is important to make the distinction so that everyone in the discussion is on the same page.

    P.S. the proper definition of 'bokeh' would mean the the title of this thread doesn't make sense
    Last edited by Edwin Francis; 3rd December 2009 at 10:33 PM.

  9. #29

    Default Re: Is it possible to have too much bokeh?

    Yes, the bokeh or quality of the blurred areas is subjective. Not everyone will agree that Lens A has better bokeh than Lens B.
    What I was pointing out was merely the definition of the word, which is not subjective but subject to much confusion -- that was in response to your question "Doesn't shallow depth of field produce background blur or bokeh?"
    Shallow depth of field does not produce bokeh, but it can display or reveal the bokeh of the lens. I know some will call this nitpicking, but it is important to make the distinction so that everyone in the discussion is on the same page.
    +1. Precisely my point.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Is it possible to have too much bokeh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edwin Francis View Post
    Yes, the bokeh or quality of the blurred areas is subjective. Not everyone will agree that Lens A has better bokeh than Lens B.
    What I was pointing out was merely the definition of the word, which is not subjective but subject to much confusion -- that was in response to your question "Doesn't shallow depth of field produce background blur or bokeh?"
    Shallow depth of field does not produce bokeh, but it can display or reveal the bokeh of the lens. I know some will call this nitpicking, but it is important to make the distinction so that everyone in the discussion is on the same page.

    P.S. the proper definition of 'bokeh' would mean the the title of this thread doesn't make sense
    Bokeh is the result of shallow depth of field, or lens fault that causes artifats and out of focus area, without it, there will be no bokeh. I posted a photo and got criticised without first being asked what lens I used and under what circumstances I made that shot. I worry more about taking good photos than such things like "bokeh" because I know when I have out of focus areas, the "quality and nature" of this out of focus area will depend on the lens I use. Creating "bokeh" I like through more practices on a wide range of lenses and under different circumstances is better than understanding the defination of a "silly" word.
    Home is where the heart is.

  11. #31

    Default Re: Is it possible to have too much bokeh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony Lee View Post
    Bokeh is the result of shallow depth of field, or lens fault that causes artifats and out of focus area, without it, there will be no bokeh. I posted a photo and got criticised without first being asked what lens I used and under what circumstances I made that shot. I worry more about taking good photos than such things like "bokeh" because I know when I have out of focus areas, the "quality and nature" of this out of focus area will depend on the lens I use. Creating "bokeh" I like through more practices on a wide range of lenses and under different circumstances is better than understanding the defination of a "silly" word.
    You're right -- understanding the precise definition of the word (silly or not) will not enable you to take better photos. It will however contribute to clarity in the discussion.
    Perhaps its just a choice of words, but you seem to have taken offence at Rendition's comments -- I don't think his intention was to criticise, but merely to point out that it's difficult to judge bokeh, the quality of the OOF areas, in your and Bluesteel's shots because they were so far OOF and lacking in details and contrast. Either highlights or some details would help, as displayed in the earlier example by Soons (not very nice bokeh, as he says). I don't see the point of bringing up what other lenses you could have used -- it is irrelevant and no one is impugning your photographic skills.
    BTW, your statement that bokeh is the result of shallow depth of field is incorrect. Bokeh is the result of lens design and construction, pure and simple. What is necessary to observe bokeh is OOF areas, highlights and high contrast areas working best. Yes, we often use shallow DOF to achieve the effect, but it is not the CAUSE.
    Cases in point - http://www.flickr.com/photos/thomasa...-extreme_bokeh
    and the colourful lights in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bokeh
    DOF refers to the areas which are in acceptable focus. Nothing in these images is in focus, yet both display bokeh.

  12. #32
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    Default Re: Is it possible to have too much bokeh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edwin Francis View Post
    You're right -- understanding the precise definition of the word (silly or not) will not enable you to take better photos. It will however contribute to clarity in the discussion.
    Perhaps its just a choice of words, but you seem to have taken offence at Rendition's comments -- I don't think his intention was to criticise, but merely to point out that it's difficult to judge bokeh, the quality of the OOF areas, in your and Bluesteel's shots because they were so far OOF and lacking in details and contrast. Either highlights or some details would help, as displayed in the earlier example by Soons (not very nice bokeh, as he says). I don't see the point of bringing up what other lenses you could have used -- it is irrelevant and no one is impugning your photographic skills.
    BTW, your statement that bokeh is the result of shallow depth of field is incorrect. Bokeh is the result of lens design and construction, pure and simple. What is necessary to observe bokeh is OOF areas, highlights and high contrast areas working best. Yes, we often use shallow DOF to achieve the effect, but it is not the CAUSE.
    Cases in point - http://www.flickr.com/photos/thomasa...-extreme_bokeh
    and the colourful lights in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bokeh
    DOF refers to the areas which are in acceptable focus. Nothing in these images is in focus, yet both display bokeh.
    If there is no OOF there is no bokeh, pure and simple. Most technical defination simply confuse more than explains. Use photos to illustrate not twisting words. If my photo does not illustrate any bokeh, post one that does and illustrate. That's how confused people like me learns.
    Home is where the heart is.

  13. #33

    Default Re: Is it possible to have too much bokeh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony Lee View Post
    If there is no OOF there is no bokeh, pure and simple. Most technical defination simply confuse more than explains. Use photos to illustrate not twisting words. If my photo does not illustrate any bokeh, post one that does and illustrate. That's how confused people like me learns.
    It is a common problem for people new in photography to get confuse with bokeh and Background blur.

    It took me a while to differentiate also.

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Is it possible to have too much bokeh?

    Quote Originally Posted by soons View Post
    It is a common problem for people new in photography to get confuse with bokeh and Background blur.

    It took me a while to differentiate also.

    In this state of confusion even for me...so my question to my big brothers here is please post a sample of a bokeh and a sample of OOF.

    Otherwise the two mean the same to me as far as my photos goes...


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  15. #35

    Default Re: Is it possible to have too much bokeh?

    From Wiki, these is a picture that showcases the quality of the bokeh produced in the photo.



    ...and here's a link of a wedding photographer talking bout bokeh and DOF – maybe his explanation would be clearer. But... just to be clear, am merely talking about quality of bokeh here and absolutely nothing to do with giving critique on how the photos posted on this thread. Bokeh, just bokeh.
    Last edited by rendition; 4th December 2009 at 10:28 AM.

  16. #36

    Default Re: Is it possible to have too much bokeh?

    In this state of confusion even for me...so my question to my big brothers here is please post a sample of a bokeh and a sample of OOF.

    Otherwise the two mean the same to me as far as my photos goes...
    Haha, i was about to ask that question too
    5D3|1740L|70200F4L|40

  17. #37

    Default Re: Is it possible to have too much bokeh?

    Quote Originally Posted by mimik07 View Post
    Haha, i was about to ask that question too
    Refer to the picture I posted 1 page earlier. Do you think the blur is pleasing?

  18. #38

    Default Re: Is it possible to have too much bokeh?

    Refer to the picture I posted 1 page earlier. Do you think the blur is pleasing?
    Not really. It's kinda distracting as a matter of fact.
    5D3|1740L|70200F4L|40

  19. #39

    Default Re: Is it possible to have too much bokeh?

    so having read so much, can i say that the aperture affects the DoF while the Bokeh really depends on the lens itself?
    5D3|1740L|70200F4L|40

  20. #40

    Default Re: Is it possible to have too much bokeh?

    haha, i dun see what's the confusion abt bokeh is the quality of the blur, not the amount of blur .

    a shallow DOF gives large amount of blur but the blur may not be beautiful , ie the bokeh is not beautiful. Bokeh is therefore how beautiful is the blur .

    hope i dun make things more blur

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