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Thread: Salon Style Photography - What's Your Take?

  1. #41

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    i think what kenghor said makes sense.

    but it's not my style of photography.

    to teL : sorry for the really rude PM a few weeks back. but i hope you understand, it's just a matter of different styles.

    as for somebody who mentioned what arps fprs frps whatever.. i mean i know it's good to have some titles to your name but it isn't necessary to flaunt it all around.

    the world has evolved, photography has evolved, many styles of evolved too.

    my idea of photography is art
    it's not weird art, it's CREATIVE ART. FEEL ART. MOOD ART. PERFORMING ART. VISUAL ART. (or visual CRAP for that matter)

    i don't like posed shots and all.. i walk around the streets, thoughts always fill my mind even though i don't have a camera in my hands.. it's like i see a few old men in my field of view but at 3 different locations doing different things.. there's a connection.. some sort of a connection.. it's like if you believe in fate, destiny, whatever, THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN AT THAT TIME THAT DAY THAT DATE.

    and the question comes

    how do you put the 3 of them into a picture ?

    (i admit i'm not anywhere near that level yet, but i'm still trying hard enough.)


    if you ask me, that's much better than kenghor's definition of salon photography
    this is creative, unposed, fly-by-the-wire, on-the-wire, whatever-the-heck, photography

    screw rules of thirds
    screw "basic" composition
    i ain't trained in photography, i don't know what's basic

    i guess the end point is

    if you like the photograph
    so be it
    if you like your photography
    so be it
    if you don't like somebody else's style
    so be it
    because photography is just a word

    it's meaning is the more important and personal one.

  2. #42

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    salon style photography does produce beautiful images, i have to admit. technical and artistic merit can be measured to some extent, hence the scientific grading system of LRPS, ARPS, FRPS etc. whether the photo evokes an emotional response from the viewer is altogether another matter. for example, the photograph "paint it red" (hope you won't mind if i cited it as an example). beautiful, no doubt. i will admire it for its artistic and technical excellence, but i won't feel any emotion like laughter, anger, sadness etc. as far as i can observe, "emotional engagement" is not one of the key criteria for judging the merits of a photograph for salon acceptance, yet it is often one of the most important and powerful ingredients of a memorable photograph. having said that, i have seen excellent salon photographs that are emotionally engaging as well. make your viewer feel something, then you would have achieved a good photo.
    Last edited by zaren; 19th February 2004 at 09:46 PM.
    you can buy better gear but you can't buy a better eye

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT ONG
    I found it very confusing this thread supposed to satisfy your curiously, has became a challenge to all those out there who think they are good to prove themselves ?

    IMHO, the title is a measurement of where your standard stands and an achievement. We cannot treated it as 'rubbish' as some has cited. If I remembered correctly, the ARPS is equivalent to a degree and if you got a degree in photography, you can directly applied for the title without submission of works.

    In anyway, this is interesting to see how wide discussion salon photography can be and we should respect it in such form. There are ups and downs in a person life, so is in the field of salon photography. Why narrow down our mind thinking it is not good ?
    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT ONG
    I found it very confusing this thread supposed to satisfy your curiously, has became a challenge to all those out there who think they are good to prove themselves ?

    IMHO, the title is a measurement of where your standard stands and an achievement. We cannot treated it as 'rubbish' as some has cited. If I remembered correctly, the ARPS is equivalent to a degree and if you got a degree in photography, you can directly applied for the title without submission of works.

    In anyway, this is interesting to see how wide discussion salon photography can be and we should respect it in such form. There are ups and downs in a person life, so is in the field of salon photography. Why narrow down our mind thinking it is not good ?
    Knight Ong: Yes, it is true that I started this thread with the intention of satisfying my curiousity, and not with the intent to start a flame-war. As you have seen in this thread though, this has degenerated to more of mud-slinging and degradatory remarks from no less than the moderators/oldbies themselves ("rubbish", "cliched", "contrived", "fake", "devoid of emotions", "pretentious") who have prejudices and probably personal agendas of their own, rather than keep an open mind about what can be learnt or gleaned from the different genres of photography. In any case, if they think that they are at the peak of perfection in their craft and art, who am I to criticise as just a mere, mortal, "commoner" here?

    As for the challenge, I am now curious to see how many would actually take it up: to let their work/art speak for themselves rather than "blow a lot of hot air" (Azure: I don't think that is restricted to only photographers with titles and qualifications... I see a lot of such similar behaviour from those photographers who don't have them here too ).

    In any case, I joined ClubSnap initially because I thought that I may have something that I could share with and contribute to the photographic community here. Before, I learned a lot by joining photoSIG and receiving a wide range of international critiques (some brutally frank) and at the same time by contributing back. I was hoping that I could extend what I have learnt to my very own local community.

    And as far, I have hoped and tried to dispel any misconceptions which members might have with regards to salon photography which I think is a good starting point for many here. Unfortunately, I don't think the majority here is ready to accept that, coming no less from the extreme and sarcastic responses I have gotten from some of the presumably moderate moderators here. In any case, if that is the stand of this forum, so be it. There's nothing for me to gain anyway by promoting something which only a minority is willing to accept.

    Thank you Clubsnap administrators and moderators. The experience here has been very "educational".

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by sequitur
    but it's not my style of photography.

    to teL : sorry for the really rude PM a few weeks back. but i hope you understand, it's just a matter of different styles.

    it's not weird art, it's CREATIVE ART. FEEL ART. MOOD ART. PERFORMING ART. VISUAL ART. (or visual CRAP for that matter)

    because photography is just a word
    Sounds very Matrix-ish.... "It is just a word"!

    In any case, I applaud you for apologising on the rudeness of your PM here. And I understand... Good luck in the pursuit of your personal style, for better or for worse. And oh by the way, I'd be interested to hear any song composition of yours: have you got any downloadable MP3s on your site??

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azure
    Addition (19/2/04) -
    Titles are meaningless to me. Multiple degrees - I've been there, done them, so? I choose to respect REAL ability, not titles. If a title-holder has little or none, then... nothing left to say. Period.
    Sour grapes? More likely the other way around.
    Would be interested to hear what multiple degrees you have actually. Without a certain amount of REAL ability, do you think anyone would have gotten any titles/qualifications in the first place? Unless, the title/qualification is conferred by some ulu institution I suppose. I am not saying that distinctions/qualifications mean EVERYTHING, but it just doesn't give you the justification to say that such holders have no real ability. And sour grapes the other way round?????

    By the way, I took a look at your portfolio. To be 100% frank, I can't say that I am particularly impressed. Maybe that was why you got the response that you did from your particular encounter with the particular past-president of the PSS you mentioned. It would be interesting to see what results and comments you might get if you submitted them for distinction qualification (for a start, try for the LPSS, or even the APSS or ASCPS. I am not even talking of those from the RPS! But of course, there's no stopping you if you really wanted to...)

  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by teL
    In any case, I joined ClubSnap initially because I thought that I may have something that I could share with and contribute to the photographic community here. Before, I learned a lot by joining photoSIG and receiving a wide range of international critiques (some brutally frank) and at the same time by contributing back. I was hoping that I could extend what I have learnt to my very own local community.

    Thank you Clubsnap administrators and moderators. The experience here has been very "educational".
    I believed that many of us joined Clubsnap would have somethings to share and eventually contribute to the community. Some may have questions to ask and further improve their skills through comments and suggestion by counterparts, in anyway it is good. The community here suppose to be likes our nation culture, regardless of race, lang and age etc etc etc ... come to a common goal etc etc etc ....

    But on the other hand, this community is not meant to start 'war' or whatsoever that it is meant not to be. Unforturnately it still happens here and there, we needs to have an understanding that it take ethnic to be polite to each others in this community. Keep this to minimum whichever is possible and someone will have to keep ways and let go. What is there to argue so much when 100yrs later all of us will be 6 feet underground.

    Whatever it is, learn some and share some experiences here ... hope for the good and keep your finger cross. As you aged and become more mature, you tends to take things easy and let go ..... enjoys life and keep smiling
    AMPA * WPPI * J team

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Avatar
    /moderator mode OFF

    ... the latter seems to be landing, or rather, crashing with loads of designations which only purpose is from what I can see so far, to disgrace those without it.
    ...
    Yup, reality sucks, but the pure order of expression in one’s work supersedes any form of injudicious prestige. As “vinegary” as this may sound, I believe some prefer to remain a photographer true to his/her art than to instill oneself with ornamentations of self-esteem.

    A 2-stop worth of light from yours truly.

    /moderator mode ON
    If I understand you correctly, I agree.

    there any many valid viewpoints and that because a person doesn't have a long string of qualifications after his name, his views should not be looked down upon.

    The contested view in question is "degrees are meaningless... the true test is actual ability" seems pretty uncontroversial to me.

    To take a simple example, I don't think Streetshooter has a ARPS LRPS RPS etc etc, yet his Street Photographs are far more compelling with 'soul', 'wit', 'humour' which engages the viewer emotionally and intellectually. A salonist doing street photography on the other hand may emphasise 'symmetry', 'colour harmony' etc which makes pretty but sterile pictures without soul.

  8. #48
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    Erwinx, "spot on exposure"

  9. #49
    Moderator chngpe01's Avatar
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    Sigh.......

    So far the only contribution to this forum I see is the flaunting of titles both photographic and academic, and not forgeting ancestral lines ,

  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by chngpe01
    Sigh.......

    So far the only contribution to this forum I see is the flaunting of titles both photographic and academic, and not forgeting ancestral lines ,
    i am no doctor and my father ain't no photographer.
    no wonder i have been shooting crap.



  11. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by snipe
    i am no doctor and my father ain't no photographer.
    no wonder i have been shooting crap.


    Oh... I won't know if you shoot crap or not. Perhaps you might like to apply for a LRPS/LPSS to find out maybe? Then perhaps you can gauge where your standards are.

    Even if I am not a doctor and my father is not a photographer, it doesn't really matter to you does it? It happens that we are by profession. No big deal.

    Anyway, I think this is getting out of the context of discussion. I've got other things in life that I want to do. Thank you for the feedback.

  12. #52

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    uh
    stop the APRS LPRRS LPPL ASPR ASAP PRAS SAPR WHATEVER now pls

    as in
    everybody
    teL included

    i seriously don't really like having my photographs or my name captioned by all these stuff
    even if i have a phd in whatever

    and also
    photography is subjective
    somebody quoted me
    "your art, my belly (something can't rem)" but more or less along that line

    streetshooter can submit his stuff to APRS LPPL LPSSRR SSPEER RRWP also but maybe he won't even get in coz the panel of judges or whatever don't like these styles of soul-shooting or something and they like salon or posed or "basic" photos with "proper" composition instead

    so
    challenge here challenge there also no use


    anyway
    photography is just a word

    it's nothing matrix
    it IS just a word
    unless you can tell me it's two or more words

  13. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by erwinx
    To take a simple example, I don't think Streetshooter has a ARPS LRPS RPS etc etc, yet his Street Photographs are far more compelling with 'soul', 'wit', 'humour' which engages the viewer emotionally and intellectually. A salonist doing street photography on the other hand may emphasise 'symmetry', 'colour harmony' etc which makes pretty but sterile pictures without soul.
    I think you over-generalise salonist here.... Maybe the salonist in your preconceived opinion. Anyway, I'm sure Streetshooter would get his ability recognised if he did in fact apply for any of the distinctions (if the panel thinks they are compelling enough). And the panel are not just made up of 'salonist photographers'.


    Quote Originally Posted by erwinx
    there any many valid viewpoints and that because a person doesn't have a long string of qualifications after his name, his views should not be looked down upon.
    I agree with you on this. But the converse is equally true.. although I don't think that is the feeling I get from certain moderators here.

  14. #54

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    Agreed with sequitur, it is getting OT from it original form ....
    AMPA * WPPI * J team

  15. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by sequitur
    uh
    streetshooter can submit his stuff to APRS LPPL LPSSRR SSPEER RRWP also but maybe he won't even get in coz the panel of judges or whatever don't like these styles of soul-shooting or something and they like salon or posed or "basic" photos with "proper" composition instead
    And how would you know he wouldn't? For all you know, his panel be so well-liked by the judges there that it might get selected to be kept as a permanent collection there. We wouldn't find out if we don't try.

  16. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by chngpe01
    Sigh.......

    So far the only contribution to this forum I see is the flaunting of titles both photographic and academic, and not forgeting ancestral lines ,
    You might as well add "personal attack" to your list of contributions.

  17. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT ONG
    Agreed with sequitur, it is getting OT from it original form ....
    Agreed and thanks for maintaining a voice/tone of reason.

  18. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by teL
    Oh... I won't know if you shoot crap or not. Perhaps you might like to apply for a LRPS/LPSS to find out maybe? Then perhaps you can gauge where your standards are.
    nah. i dun need others to justify my existence, nor let them impose their standards on me. i also dun need to throw my titles and qualifications all over the place.

    arrhh!!! i talk crap as well...

    btw, you are welcome.

  19. #59

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    This discussion has gone into an arguement and it will never stops as people are bringing in other factors.

    A lot of Salon bashers has a misconception of what Salon is. They think that Salon is the Singapore style salon that u see from the pictures produced from the clubs outing with a ray of light and smoke etc... These basher are no different from the salonist which they have so fiercely critised. Both parties are equally narrow minded drawing their own bounderies and definition of what Salon is.

    Then one should not bring the personal factors of Salonist critising non salonist work. This has much to do with one's character rather than Salon itself.

    As for the titles, yes it is a good test to see the standard of your work, provided you don't cheat. Join a club and dumbly shoot their set-up pictures may earn you a title easily. But you only prove that u know how to operate and trip the shuttle as you're shooting through someone's vision rather than your very own. You're just cheating yourself. Go and find your own pictures.

    As to the issue of a streetshooter getting a picture and a ARPS not able to: Again, this is a misconception and a narrow view. Get the streetshooter to apply some Salonist style and we will have another master like Steve McCurry.

  20. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by teL
    And how would you know he wouldn't? For all you know, his panel be so well-liked by the judges there that it might get selected to be kept as a permanent collection there. We wouldn't find out if we don't try.

    i was just stating an example
    that it's all a matter of luck

    just like o levels, a levels, all that crap, who marks your exam papers, you and your friend same answer but one gets 10 marks and you only get 5...

    it's all subjective
    it's all "TIAN SHI DI LI REN HE".. fate destiny whatever


    and seriously you're becoming a bit defensive/offensive/whatever.. you're like challenging people to participate in these whatever titles stuff..

    i mean
    having all these titles don't make you a better photographer
    having all these titles don't mean you are a good photographer
    so what're all these titles ? nothing much really


    seriously sometimes the way you post messages, it gives people the feeling that like because you're ARPS and your dad is somebody, so what you say is politically correct.. not attacking you or what, just being honest.

    anyway this thread is really really WAY WAY WAY OT

    and i suggest the mods close it


    sorry if i offended anyone
    hope this ends in peace.

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