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Thread: Changi Road Closure

  1. #21
    Senior Member Kit's Avatar
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    The call to close the road is required as the situation dictates. It is ridiculous to say it shouldn't be in place in favour of a few individuals and because there are other ways of destruction. No single measure can protect everything, that's common sense but that doesn't mean we shouldn't start mending a hole in the million.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Kit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackal
    Like I said ... go hire some bodyguards .... don't you think its a loop hole in the security of your home ? lots of psycho killers on the prowl....

    hmm ok So whereabout do you suggest all the aviation photographers who come from all over the world could be the best location for aviation photography ? I would love for you to tell the thousands what you just said. Not such a big deal right ?
    You're getting emotional. Stop seeing things from the photographer's point of view and you'll be more rational towards this issue. And btw, you've watched too much channel 8 drama.

    What I would tell photographers all over the world? I'll tell them they'll be landing on an airport with security measures in place to ensure their safety. To me, that is a big deal.
    Last edited by Kit; 9th February 2004 at 01:56 AM.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kit
    The call to close the road is required as the situation dictates. It is ridiculous to say it shouldn't be in place in favour of a few individuals and because there are other ways of destruction. No single measure can protect everything, that's common sense but that doesn't mean we shouldn't start mending a hole in the million.
    Well kit lets look at it from 3rd person perspective... you mend 1 today, 999,999 to go.... there is a 999,999:1 ratio that terrorist can attack. That is why the mandatory security measures like metal detectors scanning of goods etc. these are the basics off all prevention and is proving hard for smugglers. Of coz they would have to seek other alternatives but than they risk getting caught in the process.

    So say today you close the road ... terrorist could hire a boat and fire just north or south of singapore. And so you have police boats patrolling hat area, the terrorist could snip a hole in the fence and place a bomb on an aircraft in the standing bay which no one guards.

    These are just a few of the 999,999 possible senario that can happen and if we were to cover all 999,999 possible aspect, I'm afraid drastic measures will have to be taken like shutting down all airports and airlines in the world. thats definitely 1 loop hole closed.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kit
    You're getting emotional. Stop seeing things from the photographer's point of view and you'll be more rational towards this issue. And btw, you've watched too much channel 8 drama.

    What I would tell photographers all over the world? I'll tell them they'll be landing on an airport with security measures in place to ensure their safety. To me, that is a big deal.
    Pardon me but I watch tv once a month. To you its not a big deal because I don't think you understand the nature of this whole issue. But thats ok since your knowledge in aviation isn't that profound compared to others.

    I don't get emotional. I get realistic.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Kit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackal
    Well kit lets look at it from 3rd person perspective... you mend 1 today, 999,999 to go.... there is a 999,999:1 ratio that terrorist can attack. That is why the mandatory security measures like metal detectors scanning of goods etc. these are the basics off all prevention and is proving hard for smugglers. Of coz they would have to seek other alternatives but than they risk getting caught in the process.

    So say today you close the road ... terrorist could hire a boat and fire just north or south of singapore. And so you have police boats patrolling hat area, the terrorist could snip a hole in the fence and place a bomb on an aircraft in the standing bay which no one guards.

    These are just a few of the 999,999 possible senario that can happen and if we were to cover all 999,999 possible aspect, I'm afraid drastic measures will have to be taken like shutting down all airports and airlines in the world. thats definitely 1 loop hole closed.
    There are 1,000,000 holes. If you don't mend any, there will be 1,000,000. If you start mending, there will surly be less than 1,000,000. Which one would you choose? To start mending or not? I would that think the answer is a no brainer.

    Photographers loose a spot in the interest of airport security. So what?

  6. #26
    Senior Member Kit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackal
    Pardon me but I watch tv once a month. To you its not a big deal because I don't think you understand the nature of this whole issue. But thats ok since your knowledge in aviation isn't that profound compared to others.

    I don't get emotional. I get realistic.
    What's so realistic about crying over a spot for photography in the interest of security?

    Don't know about you but to me, being realistic is to approach any potential security breaches no matter how minor it is. You don't need a whole lot of aviation knowledge to approach this issue, just a bit of common sense. An average of 6 flights in and out of Singapore annually is enough to tell me that I would prefer a safe airport than having some photographers capturing the plane I'm in.
    Last edited by Kit; 9th February 2004 at 02:09 AM.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kit
    There are 1,000,000 holes. If you don't mend any, there will be 1,000,000. If you start mending, there will surly be less than 1,000,000. Which one would you choose? To start mending or not? I would that think the answer is a no brainer.

    Photographers loose a spot in the interest of airport security. So what?
    Do you see the military place their troops at the borders of singapore and its missles armed and ready, its planes on patrol full strength and the navy's entire arsenal around our border?
    Reason why i ask this is because you are talking about risk. We could be attacked any moment now and it would take us 4 hrs to mobilise.

    Do we have to be invaded before we learn to place our Armed Forces on the front lines 24 hrs a day forever ? Obviously the risk were assessed and deemed not necessary. possible but not necessary. Its called Intelligence

  8. #28
    Senior Member Kit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackal
    Do you see the military place their troops at the borders of singapore and its missles armed and ready, its planes on patrol full strength and the navy's entire arsenal around our border?
    Reason why i ask this is because you are talking about risk. We could be attacked any moment now and it would take us 4 hrs to mobilise.

    Do we have to be invaded before we learn to place our Armed Forces on the front lines 24 hrs a day forever ? Obviously the risk were assessed and deemed not necessary. possible but not necessary. Its called Intelligence
    So how did you manage to come to a conclusion that the decision to close the road wasn't based on intelligence and risk assessment?

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kit
    What's so realistic about crying over a spot for photography in the interest of security?

    Don't know about you but to me, being realistic is to approach any potential security breaches no matter how minor it is. You don't need a whole lot of aviation knowledge to approach this issue, just a bit of common sense. An average of 6 flights in and out of Singapore annually is enough to tell me that I would prefer a safe airport than having some photographers capturing the plane I'm in.
    I shed my tears for you kit. Obviously all that examples didn't went through. You obviously think I'm psychotic enough to compromise the safety of civilians for my sole photography interest sake because if I did, I'll say forget the fence ! let us roam freely around !

    But thats ok. You know maybe I should write to CAAS and let them know of your "views" and we'll see the response. I hope you don't live your life in fear. I'm off to bed. sweet dreams

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kit
    So how did you manage to come to a conclusion that the decision to close the road wasn't based on intelligence and risk assessment?
    Because my friend unlike you, I have assess and security clearance to CAT 1 Intelligence/Documents. In other words, TOP SECRET classification. Not that I proudly let the whole world know whats going on and compromise intelligence of this country but these issues like changi road closure and face identification, thumb print recognization aren't new to me. Sometimes what you see on newspaper aren't what it looks like. My 2 cents worth.

  11. #31
    Senior Member Kit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackal
    I shed my tears for you kit. Obviously all that examples didn't went through. You obviously think I'm psychotic enough to compromise the safety of civilians for my sole photography interest sake because if I did, I'll say forget the fence ! let us roam freely around !

    But thats ok. You know maybe I should write to CAAS and let them know of your "views" and we'll see the response. I hope you don't live your life in fear. I'm off to bed. sweet dreams
    You like to cry a lot don't you?

    As for living my life in fear....... with safety measures in place, I believe I have one less reason to live in fear. Write in if you want to. I'm sure they wouldn't change anything after reading my views expecially since my views were in line with their endeavours.

    The examples you quoted were potential hazards but you're suggesting that we should leave the matter alone because there are other bigger problems around. That's hardly problem solving in case you have't noticed.

  12. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kit
    You like to cry a lot don't you?

    As for living my life in fear....... with safety measures in place, I believe I have one less reason to live in fear. Write in if you want to. I'm sure they wouldn't change anything after reading my views expecially since my views were in line with their endeavours.

    The examples you quoted were potential hazards but you're suggesting that we should leave the matter alone because there are other bigger problems around. That's hardly problem solving in case you have't noticed.
    Alright man your so cool. Obviously you had to resort teasing.

    Well your right about the crying part. I do cry once a year on my late sister's anniversary. Say whatever you wish.... Like I mention to each his/her own. If I don't stop now it never will. Goodnight.....

  13. #33
    Senior Member Kit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackal
    Because my friend unlike you, I have assess and security clearance to CAT 1 Intelligence/Documents. In other words, TOP SECRET classification. Not that I proudly let the whole world know whats going on and compromise intelligence of this country but these issues like changi road closure and face identification, thumb print recognization aren't new to me. Sometimes what you see on newspaper aren't what it looks like. My 2 cents worth.
    Wow!! Impressive!!! I don't need to know about top secret classifications. All I need to know is that I have a safe airport to use.

    So what I saw in the newspaper is not meant to be eh? Does that means they're not going to close the road? Or do they have some better reasons to have security measures in place? Funny now you should say that....... remember you yourself claimed that the information you've got on the launchers was from the newspaper? So which is which?

    This whole thread started with you complaining about not being able to photograph airplanes and you simply brushed it aside later on. So what's your other problem with added security other than now you can photograph planes from where you used to be?

    Btw, a so called "CAT 1 personal" had left his traces all over the net. Good on you.

  14. #34

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    What is CAT 1 personnel? How many CATs are there?

  15. #35
    Senior Member Kit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackal
    Alright man your so cool. Obviously you had to resort teasing.

    Well your right about the crying part. I do cry once a year on my late sister's anniversary. Say whatever you wish.... Like I mention to each his/her own. If I don't stop now it never will. Goodnight.....
    I'm sorry if I caused any distress to you.

    It wouldn't take a extra ordinary person to figure out that the perimeter of the airport has to be secured given the current situation. To suggest that we shouldn't do anything just because there are other ways of breaching security is.......... (well, I trust you're capable of filling in the blanks). Perhaps you have some "confidential" information that shows why the road shouldn't be closed but judging from what is happening and some common sense, it shouldn't be that difficult to see what the authorities are doing would it?

  16. #36
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    Hi;

    I understand that you feel pretty strongly about this road closure but as it is, you need to understand if it's warrented.

    You may think the measures in place will restrict your civil liberty, but honestly, how often does one use that road? Do you use that road all the time?

    You may deem it paranoia but rest assured that the threats are real and at the same time, while the terrorrist may not need to succeed everytime, the local law enforcement and homeland security agencies need to get it right all the time. Not a single attack can be allowed to take place.

    And even if a shoulder launcher doesn't pack enough power (it does actually) you need to understand any form of a successful attack will cause fear. It's not death and destruction that does the most damage. It's the fear and paralysis that occurs in the aftermath.

    Maybe it's easy for someone to take a blase attitude towards this, but if you put yourself in the shoes of people in charge of Changi Airport, would you leave the road open and say, "don't worry, i'm sure nothing will happen..."

    This is not meant to be taken personally but if you do read the papers, local and overseas, you will understand and appreciate the stakes at hand. The economy is barely reovering. A successful incident will undo all the hardwork everyone has put in.

    Think about it.

    By the way, since you mentioned this

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackal
    Because my friend unlike you, I have assess and security clearance to CAT 1 Intelligence/Documents. In other words, TOP SECRET classification. Not that I proudly let the whole world know whats going on and compromise intelligence of this country but these issues like changi road closure and face identification, thumb print recognization aren't new to me. Sometimes what you see on newspaper aren't what it looks like. My 2 cents worth.
    I am quite sure if you have such knowledge, then you should honestly know better. And since you are confident enough to mention this publicly, i hope you can he held accountable if your postings/comments and views are reviewed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jackal
    Like I said ... go hire some bodyguards .... don't you think its a loop hole in the security of your home ? lots of psycho killers on the prowl....
    And how do you quantify that? You know thats not the case and you are using an absolutely un-related analogy to try to state your case.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jackal
    Amongst the favourite spot for aviation photographers like me. But authorities closed it thinking someone with shoulder launched missle could shoot planes down from there. Thats dumb ! How in the world do you carry such a weapon into singapore ?!
    Just because you don't know how to doesn't mean it cannot be done. Do you rather be safe, or sorry? And if an actual incident happened, there will be someone who goes, "why wasn't the road closed in the first place?"

    Do you think you would step forth and tell everyone that it was deemed an inconvenience and unnecessary in the first place?


    Quote Originally Posted by Jackal
    If the threat is so great, why isn't airports all around the world enforcing a ground zero about 20 km around the airport ? Its always why why why... why not? what ifs...?
    And it's quite apparent you do not take issues of national security seriously, do you? For someone with your intelligence (cat 1 or otherwise) you seem to ignore alot of the obvious glaring mistakes you have stated so far. Once again, you only managed to demostrated how petulantly you feel about the entire issue and nothing beyond that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackal
    If say someone reckons you can bring a shoulder missle launcher, than anyone can bring a gun into singapore. So if thats the case why aren't there any metal detectors at mediacorp building ? or banks ? or hotels ? or CBD buildings ?
    Look "jackal", having that rank on your shoulder, or that paratrooper's insignia pinned to your uniform doesn't mean you know it all or have the right to tell Kit off in this way. Take off that pair of glasses, rub your eyes abit and if possible, try to see it from other's point of you. Alot of the arguments you make sounds like someone is being petulant.

    You know it and i know it. At the end of the day, one would need to be held accountable and judging by what you have posted in this entire thread, i would say you have a fair bit to answer for. Let's all hope this doesn't catch up with you.

    Regards
    Last edited by Wolfgang; 9th February 2004 at 10:00 AM.
    --
    "High Wired, Dream Sired"

  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackal
    Amongst the favourite spot for aviation photographers like me. But authorities closed it thinking someone with shoulder launched missle could shoot planes down from there. Thats dumb ! How in the world do you carry such a weapon into singapore ?!

    If the threat is so great, why isn't airports all around the world enforcing a ground zero about 20 km around the airport ? Its always why why why... why not? what ifs...?

    If say someone reckons you can bring a shoulder missle launcher, than anyone can bring a gun into singapore. So if thats the case why aren't there any metal detectors at mediacorp building ? or banks ? or hotels ? or CBD buildings ?
    what makes u think it is so difficult to smuggle a missile into Singapore? As long as u can bribe some people...bingo. It could be a case of bit by bit smuggling. Remember the case where a commando smuggle a pyrotechnic out of camp? Dun ever underesitmate terrorist...they are known as terrorist cos they are clever than our police and authority.

    StarCruise is also a easy way of smuggling things into Singapore. I been on cruise and i am realli surprise to see how lousy the security is. True...we go thru metal detector..but u ever wonder how an inside job can make it even easier...

    Those people who are caught in checkpoint are dump people and they are of different class to terrorist.

  18. #38

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    haiz .... just another fella using the forum as a tool to express his anger ....

  19. #39
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    There are many aspect in security. I don't think the road closure is for preventing shoulder carried missile launcher, (to prevent this u probably need to close off a lot more roads since we are a small island). The road closure is to take care of it being too close to the airport. In fact, a good rifle may be enough to penetrate the tyres of the airplane while it is landing will be sufficient to cause serious problem. So you need to prevent this close proximity and view of plane landing.

  20. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcwe68
    There are many aspect in security. I don't think the road closure is for preventing shoulder carried missile launcher, (to prevent this u probably need to close off a lot more roads since we are a small island). The road closure is to take care of it being too close to the airport. In fact, a good rifle may be enough to penetrate the tyres of the airplane while it is landing will be sufficient to cause serious problem. So you need to prevent this close proximity and view of plane landing.
    I think the move of closing the road is signalling to the terrorist that "We know wat u are doing and we are going to catch u."

    yeah...a rifle is enuff.....i wonder if there is a security breaches in the SAF..thats why they put in this rules.

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