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Thread: Should I upgrade body or change system?

  1. #41

    Default Re: Should I upgrade body or change system?

    Just a thought, do you guyz shoot landscape with all your available Focus points or the single centre point?

  2. #42

    Default Re: Should I upgrade body or change system?

    Quote Originally Posted by qingtian View Post
    Just a thought, do you guyz shoot landscape with all your available Focus points or the single centre point?
    Your "soft" shots may be because u are using all available focus points. To be sharp, u must learn to use only ONE focus point. Usually, it is the center one.
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  3. #43

    Default Re: Should I upgrade body or change system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oly5050 View Post
    Your "soft" shots may be because u are using all available focus points. To be sharp, u must learn to use only ONE focus point. Usually, it is the center one.
    Eh... I only use one focus point which is the center irregardless landscape, portraits. I am asking the question just wanting to check am i doing the correct way.... =)
    I aim with center, lock and shift to recompose the shot.
    Last edited by qingtian; 17th October 2009 at 11:25 PM.

  4. #44

    Default Re: Should I upgrade body or change system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oly5050 View Post
    To TS,

    I can understand your aversion to PP. It is indeed a pain to have to shoot in RAW and then having to PP it. But I know that there are a lot of photographers out there who PP routinely and consider PP an essential part of their workflow. I do PP too, but only for situations where I need to get the most out of my camera. These usually are low light situations. Otherwise, I always make it a point to shoot in JPEG. It is faster to transfer, faster to view thru image browser, and easier to handle generally. If u have to ask me, I think that I PP only less than 5% of my images.

    If u hate to PP, what u should do is try to tweak your camera settings until what u think will give you the best output. If having done all this and u are still not happy, then considering another system is quite a reasonable thing if u have the means and u are at your wits ends.

    I would think that 3 systems MIGHT help you. But remember, every system has their cons too. I have been told that indeed Nikon colours can be much punchier. Also, as an Oly user, I have very rarely, as mentioned before, found the need to PP the JPEGS. Third possibility, is perhaps Sony. I have also been told that Pentax gives very rich colours too. There is no way out of this. If u change system, u have to relearn all the faults of each system again. Consider this decision carefully.
    Hi Oly5050, sorry that i missed out your input. I dun really mind PP but if I am going to do that for most of my images... this will definitely be a nightmare... I'm not really hating PP but hopefully could find way and means to cut down on this which I guess everyone will be glad to do that.

    Yes, I was told Nikon color are much more punchies that is why I am considering this advantage since D90 with kit lens is much more cheaper than 7D body. Thanks for your input.
    Last edited by qingtian; 17th October 2009 at 11:55 PM.

  5. #45
    Senior Member egnaro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Should I upgrade body or change system?

    Saw your shot from earlier post, I think those shot has to improve in exposure, I am no expert, but I think tell the day shot is over expose. Sometime when camera say correct exposure, it really doesn't u r right becuz they might reading from the high or low light, for landscape, what metering u r using? Evaluative? Or ?

    I suggest u to use live view on your camera to see if your exposure is up to what u want, if not adjust on your liveview, usually liveview will show you what u get, try to shoot at ard f5.6 - f8 for landscape
    Life is like Photography, to improve, you have to keep shooting!

  6. #46

    Default Re: Should I upgrade body or change system?

    Quote Originally Posted by egnaro View Post
    Saw your shot from earlier post, I think those shot has to improve in exposure, I am no expert, but I think tell the day shot is over expose. Sometime when camera say correct exposure, it really doesn't u r right becuz they might reading from the high or low light, for landscape, what metering u r using? Evaluative? Or ?

    I suggest u to use live view on your camera to see if your exposure is up to what u want, if not adjust on your liveview, usually liveview will show you what u get, try to shoot at ard f5.6 - f8 for landscape
    Thanks for input egnaro. Yup from what I see mine dayshots seem to be more overly exposed which this cons seem to be reviewed by dpreview "Metering has occasional tendencies to overexpose in very bright, contrasty conditions"

    Reference:-
    http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos500d/page29.asp

    Putting technical specs aside, I also did try diff mode of metering (still not good with this) and to ensure that I could get the correct exposure. I review each of my shot through histogram. I normally shoot f5.6 - f8 or higher for landscape to ensure the shot look in focus. Of cos at the same time shutter speed do not go lower than 1/80 or 1/60 and keeping at low ISO between 100 - 200.

  7. #47

    Default Re: Should I upgrade body or change system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leong23 View Post
    It is by camera setting....... every camera is able set all the parameter to personal liking.

    Personally felt that, by giving this type of comment, not only you are misleading TS, but showing how technically unsound you are.
    Yes I would have to agree with you on that. But I am talking about jpeg here. There is no dispute that based on raw files, there isn't really one system that does better than the other. But based on what I have seen and heard, Oly does have better jpegs straight out of the camera than most. The truth is they have a better algorithm for converting raw to jpeg and that has nothing to do with settings or personal preference. You would be surprised how close their raw and jepg looks.
    Anyway, I was just giving suggestion to TS based on his preference.

  8. #48

    Default Re: Should I upgrade body or change system?

    Guys and Gals! Thanks for all the valuable input that had been providing.
    I had found out the root cause why all my pics look so dull!!!
    At the same time I guess I got my answer for the initial intention for creating this thread!

    Been staying up late at night to confirm this issues.
    Stay tune! I am coming out with some the test case to show it!
    Last edited by qingtian; 18th October 2009 at 09:28 AM.

  9. #49

    Default Re: Should I upgrade body or change system?

    Here are my finding.
    Raw Process using Canon DPP 3.6 vs Adobe Lightroom 2.4
    I guess the images itself speak a thousand words.

    Images are process using the same RAW files which is reset to it default shots setting before processing as follow:-
    1) Using DPP set Pictures Style to Neutral
    2) Using LR with camera Profile as Neutral

    Why test base on Neutral? Cos from what I understand this is the setting that are used to retain for it netural/natural settings that are good for PP.

    Test PP using DPP vs LR as below:-
    DPP


    LR


    DPP


    LR


    As per comparison... It look to me that jpeg after PP by LR are slight more contrast but it seem to give me the feeling the output is slightly dull. Do not quote me am i using the wrong work color space. I did ensure both are using sRGB.

    In order to further clear my doubt in this, I did some research and found this.

    http://photography-on-the.net/forum/...d.php?t=277197
    http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...ssage=30936249

    Not saying DPP is better than LR or vice versa.
    But I guess I do prefer the color output from DPP as oppose to LR. The result are promising.
    I also tried process the RAW to DPP and then convert to TIFF and from there did some minor adjustments which is features from LR and it turn out to be great!
    Last edited by qingtian; 18th October 2009 at 10:03 AM.

  10. #50

    Default Re: Should I upgrade body or change system?

    Thanks for posting your shots. But for this kind of shots that you posted, it is quite unnecessary to shoot them in RAW. If u have to go thru all this trouble, shoot in RAW, process in LR or whatever, and convert to JPG, rountinely for this kind of output, there is something wrong somewhere and I do not think it is the RAW processor here at all.

    To be honest, I think u are missing the forest for the trees here. There is very little practical difference in output between the shots. The real problem is that your photos DO look a little dull and perhaps underexposed. The problem may be your saturation settings and your exposure settings rather than whether it is a RAW processor problem. Your sky is not blue, your greens are dull and dark, your reds are not vibrant enough.
    Last edited by Oly5050; 18th October 2009 at 11:27 AM.
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  11. #51

    Default Re: Should I upgrade body or change system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oly5050 View Post
    Thanks for posting your shots. But for this kind of shots that you posted, it is quite unnecessary to shoot them in RAW. If u have to go thru all this trouble, shoot in RAW, process in LR or whatever, and convert to JPG, rountinely for this kind of output, there is something wrong somewhere and I do not think it is the RAW processor here at all.

    To be honest, I think u are missing the forest for the trees here. There is very little practical difference in output between the shots. The real problem is that your photos DO look a little dull and perhaps underexposed. The problem may be your saturation settings and your exposure settings rather than whether it is a RAW processor problem. Your sky is not blue, your greens are dull and dark, your reds are not vibrant enough.
    Not a problem, glad to share my finding as it is part of learning process too.
    I shoot with both RAW and JPEG. I keep the RAW just in case I need some edition or recovery work. I am providing the images as an samples as above as I do not really keep the RAW files after pp. I manage to recover this from my Vista backup via Shadow copies so as for testing.

    Regard on the tree shots, I am not sure where the focus is as this was taken my gf when we are having an outing to Chinese Garden. That the first time she is play with my 500D and I am not able to trace via DPP since it was lock and recomposed shot. =)

    I am not seeing the diff in for the color etc in the browser however I did see diff if I view it in windows pictures application which I am observing by saving it and viewing it offline.
    I remember this is due to browser not being color space savy, pls correct me if I am wrong.
    This converted JPEG look dull or underexposed as I set Exposure compensation -1/3 as it was really a sunny day and I am doing this setting to retain it detail.
    But it will look better after PP.

    As mention the above shots you are seeing are using neutral profiles so as to bring it to a fair comparison... It is not a fair test if I would to use DPP Landscape vs LR Landscape since it setting are different.

    The sky is not blue, the greens are dull and dark, the reds are not vibrant enough as I didn't factors in all enhancement factor. It was converted straight from RAW with it default setting using Neutral Picture Style/Profile ...
    If I did further enhancement it would not be a fair test cos all the bump up are there.
    Last edited by qingtian; 18th October 2009 at 12:22 PM.

  12. #52

    Default Re: Should I upgrade body or change system?

    Here are some clear shots on the blue sky and cloud.
    PP with the same RAW using DPP and LR, this should show the diff.

    DPP


    LR
    Last edited by qingtian; 18th October 2009 at 12:18 PM.

  13. #53

    Default Re: Should I upgrade body or change system?

    Had seen much better photos from my friend using 500D. Its definitely not the camera. What kind of filters are you using ? Trying shooting without any filters and compare the difference.

    Go rent some better lens, suggest 10-22mm since you mentioned you are a landscape person. or your 50mm F1.4 shld give u better results ?

  14. #54
    Senior Member ricleo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Should I upgrade body or change system?

    actually from what i see below, i prefer the LR to the DPP processed raw.

    Quote Originally Posted by qingtian View Post
    Here are some clear shots on the blue sky and cloud.
    PP with the same RAW using DPP and LR, this should show the diff.

    DPP


    LR
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  15. #55
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    Default Re: Should I upgrade body or change system?

    Funny you mention that people reviewed that the D90 has punchy colors. The thing is, there were a lot of reviews and reports that the D90 actually yield duller colors out of the box. So who is right or who is wrong?

    Personally I use a D90. My previous camera (D40x) gave me much more vibrant colors just because it is set to be so, right out of the box. This is the beauty of DSLRs, you can tweak till kingdom come on these cameras. I am sure if you tweak enough you will get the effect you need. Another thing to note is that sometimes, going -1/3 or -2/3 on EV can yield results that are much more punchy. It all depends on your meter. On my D40x, I usually keep it on -1/3 to -2/3 EV most of the time. On the D90 I tend to go -1/3 more. But like I said, a lot of it depends on how you shoot. Slight underexposure tend to give the impression of more punch and saturation at times. So that is something you might want to consider.

    Hope this helps.

  16. #56

    Default Re: Should I upgrade body or change system?

    Quote Originally Posted by stonefish35 View Post
    Had seen much better photos from my friend using 500D. Its definitely not the camera. What kind of filters are you using ? Trying shooting without any filters and compare the difference.

    Go rent some better lens, suggest 10-22mm since you mentioned you are a landscape person. or your 50mm F1.4 shld give u better results ?
    Hi there thanks for sharing info with me.
    Yes right now I am more or less convinced that is not really the camera or lens.
    Sad to say is consider some kind of screw up from me using LR. And it look like I prefer the coloring from DPP as oppose to LR.

    In a way I guess my photography skill are no mature enough to get good shot straight from jpeg but I am glad that there are kind souls over here share their thoughts and experience to help me out with this.

    I am using B+W filter. If I dun remember wrongly is PRO UV HAZE MRC (010M).
    50mm F1.4 is a good lens and I shoot between f2.0 - 8.0 as I understand it sharpest ouput is around this range and I did really see the different in IQ.

    Been wanting to try 10-22mm but was rather tied down with work, but I guess is only a matter of time to rent and play with this len. =)
    Last edited by qingtian; 18th October 2009 at 01:35 PM.

  17. #57
    Moderator daredevil123's Avatar
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    Default Re: Should I upgrade body or change system?

    Quote Originally Posted by qingtian View Post
    Eh... I only use one focus point which is the center irregardless landscape, portraits. I am asking the question just wanting to check am i doing the correct way.... =)
    I aim with center, lock and shift to recompose the shot.
    I use one focus point but I select the focus point that best suit my purpose. But I focus once or twice for a shot, then switch over to manual. Most of the time I use manual and shot using hyperfocal distance.

  18. #58

    Default Re: Should I upgrade body or change system?

    Quote Originally Posted by ricleo View Post
    actually from what i see below, i prefer the LR to the DPP processed raw.
    o.0 Eh the color was processed base on your recommendation by using landscape profiles and setting saturation to +2. =)

    I guess everyone really have different taste.

  19. #59

    Default Re: Should I upgrade body or change system?

    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil123 View Post
    Funny you mention that people reviewed that the D90 has punchy colors. The thing is, there were a lot of reviews and reports that the D90 actually yield duller colors out of the box. So who is right or who is wrong?

    Personally I use a D90. My previous camera (D40x) gave me much more vibrant colors just because it is set to be so, right out of the box. This is the beauty of DSLRs, you can tweak till kingdom come on these cameras. I am sure if you tweak enough you will get the effect you need. Another thing to note is that sometimes, going -1/3 or -2/3 on EV can yield results that are much more punchy. It all depends on your meter. On my D40x, I usually keep it on -1/3 to -2/3 EV most of the time. On the D90 I tend to go -1/3 more. But like I said, a lot of it depends on how you shoot. Slight underexposure tend to give the impression of more punch and saturation at times. So that is something you might want to consider.

    Hope this helps.
    One of the review:-
    http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond90/page36.asp

    I guess hard to say right or wrong, but I do prefer seeking various source for opinions. I guess we are too used to find products review before paying the money for something. If is a few dollars, ppl will just heck... But if it is a few hundreds to thousand ppl will be more concern and caution to check this and there to ensure what they are paying for is best of bucks. Today D90 is good, 7D is better. Tml who know there will be a D90s, 8D, 60D... is never ending.

    Thanks for sharing your tips! I guess I learn one more things today and will definitely give it a try in playing with EV as u suggested as I only lower the EV when I want to retain detail should there are lost of details.

  20. #60

    Default Re: Should I upgrade body or change system?

    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil123 View Post
    I use one focus point but I select the focus point that best suit my purpose. But I focus once or twice for a shot, then switch over to manual. Most of the time I use manual and shot using hyperfocal distance.
    Once again, thanks for sharing your valuable experience.

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