Entering the world of MF

[wxsour]

Hi,

I'm new around here and i'm recently hooked by the character of medium format photography. Please bear with my ignorance in various terms used and c&c are welcome as i really wanna learn the arts this such photography.

BASICALLY,i'm jumping a step up from 35mm. I've never used a 35mm SLR. Basically the only 35mm camera i've used is the lomo favourite WAIWAI.

Shooting and collecting my first few rolls of 120mm on my Diana+ has left me excited about the larger negative size(yes i know t sounds childish) of the 120mm! My subjects? street photography and landscapes, clouds etc. I just wanna capture the images of singapore and of this world, ie architecture, people, nature etc and preserve them in film..

The issue with my Diana+? Inconsistency. I find that my shots are very inconsistant, although fun in the anticipation, its honest rather expensive to sustain this excitement. Ive tried my hands on a regular DSLR, but although i can be trigger happy, it is still very different from a film camera. (i'm sure most film camera users will agree) And i like the film camera.

Have been looking a some MF SLRs,and TLRs..incl P6TL,Kiev60,Lubitel2. Do u guys suggest me going ahead to get one for my interest? as you all can alr probably tell, i'm not really prepared to pay alot due to my age and background. So i really wanna make sure that i spend my money wisely and not waste a perfectly good camera by buying and not using.

Will just continue my discussion regarding suggested MF SLRs and TLRs, brothers and sisters, your inputs please? Thanks

[conherent]

You may want to master your basics first before entering into the world of MF, it would be a real waste of your money considering the high cost of both equipment and consumables.

[enivre]

A Yashicamat TLR is affordable and produces more than decent photos. I'll suggest you go with that. That's what I used when I first started MF photography, sold it off but regretted, then went out and bought another one.

You'll need a way to meter though, either buy a cheap handheld meter, a voigtlander hotshoe meter, or just learn the sunny 16 and you're good to go.

[Varex2b]

…a few thoughts on medium format with tight budget…

TLR
Twin lens reflex cameras are a popular start for medium format photography, but have their limitations. Typically you cannot change the lenses on those cameras. TLRs usually have slightly wide normal lenses (3,5 75mm) and are (mostly) limited to waist level finders (combined with primitive straight viewfinders).

The waist level finder often forces a perspective onto the photographer / viewer (from the belly up) which is hardly flattering for portrait work. Surprisingly portrait work was what these cameras were often used for (in the 50s & 60s). TLRs are really good, if you’re really tall and you’re subjects are really short! Another thing to get used to is the reversed image in the waist level finder. Very hard to use for anything that is moving!

TLRs however have silent leaf shutters and are usually quite(!) light cameras. People might feel quite amused, if you use one on them 

You could get a new Chinese made Seagull. Used Yashica cameras are popular here and often a bit overpriced for what they do. Compare prices and see, if you could get a good Rolleicord cheaper. You will need to add a handheld exposure meter. Go for a camera w/o built in meter, as the meters often don’t work as they should anymore or need batteries that are no longer available (mercury).

End of part 1. Sean.

[Varex2b]

SLR – Pentacon Six
A huge system was built around the Pentacon Six camera from VEB Pentacon former German Democratic Rep. The system is best remember for it’s lenses rather than the camera. The P6 is quite a mess because of the following reasons:

-1- Film transport is always an issue. Basically all cameras run frames into each other as the index from shot to shot is too short. This can only(!) be avoided by bypassing the “smart” indexing feature – see this page: http://www.baierfoto.de/Transport.html

-2- Insufficient film planarity because a) there is only a single set of film guide rails (good m/f cameras have inner and outer film guide rails) & b) because the pressure plates are too thin and warp in the center over the years (causing the film to plop in the centre).

-3- Shutter speeds (especially long shutter speeds) are often unreliable by now, since the cameras are quite old now and the grease in the timing mechanism might be hardened (can be solved by CLA).

-4- Film frame counters often don’t work due to broken springs (can be repaired by expert).

-5- No self returning mirror. The viewfinder will black out after each shot, returning only after having wound the camera.

End of part 2. Sean.

[Varex2b]

SLR – Kiev 60
Made in the Ukraine and often incorrectly rated as a P6 copy. In a very lose sense it is similar to the P6, sharing its lens mount. The K60 is more communistic in appearance. It’s much heavier than a P6 and its mirror bounce could be described as “clap of thunder”. Here you will battle the following issues:

-1- Unlovingly assembled. Any button can come off anytime – especially lens stopdown lever. Treat this camera as disposable.

-2- Internal reflections in the mirror box due to incompetent paint work requires you to glue non-reflective material and ultra flat paint in there.

-3- Film transport issues are common, as the cameras are mostly not adjusted for western type 120er film (thin paper back). This can be adjusted by an expert or can be avoided by buying the camera from a good source. Look here: www.araxfoto.com

However the indexing on the camera is very consistent, which makes it much more reliable than the P6. Use a spacer paper on the take up spool for cameras that index too short!

-4- Since the backing paper is thinner on western films, the inner guide rails are cut too deep, causing film planarity issues. This is easily solved by applying 100 micron thick black adhesive film onto the film pressure plate (but not covering the outer guide rail area).

This workaround will bring the focal plane back to where it should be and hold the film perfectly flat.

-5- No self return mirror either (Stone age!).

Putting together a well modified K60 can be quite rewarding. If used together with Zeiss Jena glass from the Pentacon Six, the image quality is stunning.

I found the built in – non coupled meter (for prism viewfinder) extremely accurate!

Cheers, Sean.

[Varex2b]

...on a last note...

Get a Japanese SLR like a Mamiya M645. Reliable, good lenses and inexpensive (if you stick to the old model)!

All this is however terrible advice. Good advice would be to stay away from medium format as far as possible

Sean.
(you can PM me for specific questions on the Kiev, Pentacon cameras).

[wxsour]

Originally Posted by conherent You may want to master your basics first before entering into the world of MF, it would be a real waste of your money considering the high cost of both equipment and consumables.

Thanks coherent for the advise! Cos with the Diana+ the most i'm working with is just aperture (by pictures!) and either bulb or normal mode! so its rather basic and mostly trial and error. what are the basics i can and should master and how can i practise, or is just taking alot of shots the only way?

Originally Posted by enivre ...You'll need a way to meter though, either buy a cheap handheld meter, a voigtlander hotshoe meter, or just learn the sunny 16 and you're good to go.

hey enivre! Thats for your suggestion and guess what, i only heard of metering till you mentioned it..(one of the many things u dun get to learn with a diana+) but thanks so much for your advice. with an on-board meter, does it set the aperture automatically or does it just provide a reading??

Originally Posted by Varex2b TLR..you cannot change the lenses on those cameras. TLRs usually have slightly wide normal lenses (3,5 75mm) and are (mostly) limited to waist level finders (combined with primitive straight viewfinders). ..You could get a new Chinese made Seagull. Used Yashica cameras are popular here and often a bit overpriced for what they do. Compare prices and see, if you could get a good Rolleicord cheaper. You will need to add a handheld exposure meter. Go for a camera w/o built in meter, as the meters often don’t work as they should anymore or need batteries that are no longer available (mercury). ...Insufficient film planarity because a) there is only a single set of film guide rails (good m/f cameras have inner and outer film guide rails) & b) because the pressure plates are too thin and warp in the center over the years (causing the film to plop in the centre). ..No self returning mirror. The viewfinder will black out after each shot, returning only after having wound the camera.

Thanks so much Sean! a very comprehensive write up! very helpful !! Yes, TLRs do not jhave much lens changeability which is why i was considering the p6..
My requirements for my camera would mainly be street photogrpahy capable, wide angle; macro (if possible) these are gg be my kit if i get a DSLR too! Am i too demanding?? Can the TLRs cater for my wants? haha..

But i love the perspective of TLRs(hip shooting)!

May i ask regarding the "film plopping in the centre"? what does it mean? and with a self returning mirror, does it mean no more multiple exposures or the p6 unlike diana+? issit the same for the TLRs?

[wxsour]

Originally Posted by Varex2b ....All this is however terrible advice. Good advice would be to stay away from medium format as far as possible

Why??

[enivre]

Originally Posted by wxsour Why??

Haha... coz then you'll get poisoned by it...

[Varex2b]

ok,

the P6 & K60 don't have double exposure mechanisms, as film transport and shutter cocking are linked. The Seagull's usually have a little button to recock shutter, w/o indexing film. So double exposure would be easy on the Seagull.

Coming from 135 SLRs we're all used to self returning mirrors. This means that you press the trigger button and the mirror will flip up, lens will be stopped down, shutter performs exposure, lens aperture will be released and mirror flips down again.

The P6 and Kiev 60 are more simple here. After winding the mirror will move down (and the lens aperture will be released). When you press the trigger button the mirror will flip up, the lens will be stopped down and the shutter performs the exposure. It stops there.

Only upon winding the camera for the next shot, the mirror will come down again and the lens aperture will be released, thus completing the sequence.

There are two disadvantages in the non-self-returning mirror sequence. The obvious effect is the viewfinder blackout. Because both cameras use rubber cloth shutters, pointing the camera (with lens) into the sun, could cause burning holes into the shutter cloth.

Hope this helps. Sean.

[enivre]

Originally Posted by wxsour hey enivre! Thats for your suggestion and guess what, i only heard of metering till you mentioned it..(one of the many things u dun get to learn with a diana+) but thanks so much for your advice. with an on-board meter, does it set the aperture automatically or does it just provide a reading??

Oh my.... then in this case I suggest you stick to 35mm film first. Get your basics right before heading off into medium format.

Why? Because medium format is an expensive medium to learn photography with..

[Varex2b]

I was half-joking to advise you to stay away from medium format!

For once it's quite addictive to get the ultimate image quality. Another issue is, that you might get hooked on expensive glass.

However shooting medium format is very rewarding and has health benefits! The equipment is generally heavy and bulky. Using a Kiev 60 as a travel camera, will definitely improve your muscular strength!

Smiles, Sean.

[Varex2b]

Oh yes,

the Pentacon Six and film flatness. The problem is, that the pressure plates are quite thin and the springs exert pressure from the centre. Over the years the pressure plates will be pushing the film forward in the center. This makes the film plop forward in the frame centre.

Here is an illustration (unfortunately german): http://www.baierfoto.de/planlage.html

Sean.

[Varex2b]

For what it's worth, here's a website from someone who really likes the P6: http://www.pentaconsix.com/

EOF, Sean.

[wxsour]

Originally Posted by enivre Oh my.... then in this case I suggest you stick to 35mm film first. Get your basics right before heading off into medium format. Why? Because medium format is an expensive medium to learn photography with..

Yea.. but there's SOOO many manual 35mm SLR out there... i really dun know which one to get i have a Nikormat FT which's my dad's, but Mr Tay at DeCamConsultants had me really thinking hard if i should repair and clean it for 150+. Should i? or should i just get another 2nd hand one from the buy/sell? I dun wan it to go it waste to.. but its meter is spoilt too i think..

hmm... wad about TLRs like Lubitel2 or 166+ and the Seagulls 4A and 4B? the thing i like abt the Lubitel 166+ is the adaptor for 35mm.. like more value for money..=P These few TLRs, are there major differences?

[Celebring]

Originally Posted by wxsour i have a Nikormat FT... repair and clean it for 150+

From my experience, with a lot of patience and a little luck, it is possible to get a functioning, clean manual focus SLR for $200 or less. Despite that, the FT may be worth repairing if it has sentimental value.

If you already have several Nikon lenses it may be worthwhile to get another Nikon SLR, otherwise, shop around and get any reliable brand that takes your fancy.

You seem quite concerned about cost. I would also like to point out that Medium Format film and cameras are not cheap. A roll of 120 (medium format) and 35mm film may cost about the same, but you only get 12 shots for a 120 TLR compared to 36 on a 35mm SLR.

Camera-wise, I've purchased a Nikon FE2 for $200 and to get a medium format camera with interchangeable lens capability, depth-of-field preview, TTL flash, built-in meter, automated exposure, etc, you probably need to pay quite a bit more. Of course, all these features may not matter to you and a 120 TLR will get you a much bigger negative.

I found this article helpful in understanding medium format photography.

[rageon09]

Hi guys, I've also recently been itching to play with MF. But coming from RF, i don't know much at all, but I must say there's something really special about the look of the pictures I've seen on the net. I've been looking at the old Rolleiflex cameras and am tempted to get one if it's reasonably priced. Not asking for too much but would like a 80/2.8 model (but the 3.5s seem much cheaper) with metering capabilities. Can anyone recommend a model, where to buy and how much would it cost locally? Thanks.

[0200903C]

Originally Posted by rageon09 Hi guys, I've also recently been itching to play with MF. But coming from RF, i don't know much at all, but I must say there's something really special about the look of the pictures I've seen on the net. I've been looking at the old Rolleiflex cameras and am tempted to get one if it's reasonably priced. Not asking for too much but would like a 80/2.8 model (but the 3.5s seem much cheaper) with metering capabilities. Can anyone recommend a model, where to buy and how much would it cost locally? Thanks.

Judging by the local buy and sell and ebay completed listing prices...prices for the 80 f2.8 models is dependent on condition, rarity of model

The Rolleiflexes can go anywhere from 1000-1350 to even 1.8k SGD. Again this depends on condition mostly and model.

Overseas, I've even seen a mint Rolleiflex 3.5f planar go for 1000USD. Prices just climb and climb.

[rageon09]

Originally Posted by 0200903C Judging by the local buy and sell and ebay completed listing prices...prices for the 80 f2.8 models is dependent on condition, rarity of model The Rolleiflexes can go anywhere from 1000-1350 to even 1.8k SGD. Again this depends on condition mostly and model. Overseas, I've even seen a mint Rolleiflex 3.5f planar go for 1000USD. Prices just climb and climb.

wow... that's quite expensive! I was really hoping for under 1k SGD. maybe should target used and abused ones, or more probably, seriously look at the f3.5