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Thread: article: PRs preferred over locals.

  1. #21

    Default Re: article: PRs preferred over locals.

    Quote Originally Posted by cosycatus View Post
    Sigh...it's really sad when the sons of singapore are treated worse than PRs and FT...


    Without doubt.

  2. #22

    Default Re: article: PRs preferred over locals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockyboy View Post

    I am still looking for new engineers and I have interviewed many locals and foreigners. I would prefer to hire locals, but often do I see, the locals worry about getting more pay than anything else.
    that was one lament of someone older i know..

    he said, the young singaporeans he had seen and had to interview.. the first thing they always asked without fail..was what the renumeration was, without asking what the job was about, what the company was about.. or even anything else.

    he said, in the old days, he had to present to others what he had to bring to the table, instead of what the table had to bring to him. times have changed. that's just the way it is. from young to old, it can't be helped that such feelings will surface. i remember when i was in primary school, there were a lot of complaints about how the foreigners were "older" and therefore outperformed the singaporeans... but i also remember that while their english was bad (foreigners), they spent so much effort on it that they ended up getting better english results too. but of course no one mentions that. we see the things we want to see, the things that favour our point of view and stand.

    let's not tar all of them over with a big brush. there are good foreigners, there are bad foreigners. there are good singaporeans, there are bad singaporeans, and so the story goes....
    Last edited by night86mare; 29th September 2009 at 03:23 PM.

  3. #23

    Default Re: article: PRs preferred over locals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockyboy View Post
    I am still looking for new engineers and I have interviewed many locals and foreigners. I would prefer to hire locals, but often do I see, the locals worry about getting more pay than anything else.
    Well, looking from another perspective, salary offered to FT (most from 3rd world country) will still be much more attractive than their home country.

    The key issue is our dear government do not "treasure" us local born Singaporean. ....how sad.

    Anyway we Singaporean are the "gui" (believe in whatever the policy maker says) type, even though we have been complaining for many years (over 10 years), but at the end of the day, when the time to voice out our unhappiness during election, it is still the same old result.

    In conclusion, we should not blame the FT, but rather the fault is with the policy makers. They make us Singaporean who are born and grow up here feel untreasured.

  4. #24

    Default Re: article: PRs preferred over locals.

    Quote Originally Posted by scanner View Post
    Well, looking from another perspective, salary offered to FT (most from 3rd world country) will still be much more attractive than their home country.

    The key issue is our dear government do not "treasure" us local born Singaporean. ....how sad.

    Anyway we Singaporean are the "gui" (believe in whatever the policy maker says) type, even though we have been complaining for many years (over 10 years), but at the end of the day, when the time to voice out our unhappiness during election, it is still the same old result.

    In conclusion, we should not blame the FT, but rather the fault is with the policy makers. They make us Singaporean who are born and grow up here feel untreasured.
    When come elections, they will let the voters nimble some of their left over pies to gain their votes.
    After that it's payback time.

  5. #25

    Default Re: article: PRs preferred over locals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockyboy View Post
    I'm head of my department and I'm local and I have engineers from India, Malaysian chinese, Phillipinos, and of course locals.

    I do not care what colour is their skin, what religion they are practising, what language is their mother tougue, but I do care what quality they have, commitment and contribution to the dept and company.

    I am still looking for new engineers and I have interviewed many locals and foreigners. I would prefer to hire locals, but often do I see, the locals worry about getting more pay than anything else.
    actually...which is worse? Being upfront about pay or using ur company as a spring board?
    Fact is, if the company do not pay a person well over time, be it local or FT, he will leave. For FT, they just want to use this job to apply for PR while scouting for a better job.

    Take Hyf*** , a rather well know water treatment company for eg ( hope u are not working there...) The company pay really low wages. Most of it's staff are foreigners or foreign students. For my batch of graduates, those who got in there have a much lower wages such that even Japaneses engineering companies pay better. They change CFO, middle management and engineers every so often despite the fact that it's not a small size company. That's not the sigh of a strong company....because they do not groom talent from within. It's not a company i will put my $$ in ...

  6. #26

    Default Re: article: PRs preferred over locals.

    Quote Originally Posted by cosycatus View Post
    Take Hyf*** , a rather well know water treatment company for eg ( hope u are not working there...) The company pay really low wages. Most of it's staff are foreigners or foreign students. For my batch of graduates, those who got in there have a much lower wages such that even Japaneses engineering companies pay better. They change CFO, middle management and engineers every so often despite the fact that it's not a small size company. That's not the sigh of a strong company....because they do not groom talent from within. It's not a company i will put my $$ in ...
    they're still doing well without your $$ in it, arent they?

  7. #27

    Default Re: article: PRs preferred over locals.

    Quote Originally Posted by cosycatus View Post
    That's not the sigh of a strong company....because they do not groom talent from within. It's not a company i will put my $$ in ...
    i don't really get this point.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: article: PRs preferred over locals.

    Quote Originally Posted by cosycatus View Post
    actually...which is worse? Being upfront about pay or using ur company as a spring board?
    Fact is, if the company do not pay a person well over time, be it local or FT, he will leave. For FT, they just want to use this job to apply for PR while scouting for a better job.

    Take Hyf*** , a rather well know water treatment company for eg ( hope u are not working there...) The company pay really low wages. Most of it's staff are foreigners or foreign students. For my batch of graduates, those who got in there have a much lower wages such that even Japaneses engineering companies pay better. They change CFO, middle management and engineers every so often despite the fact that it's not a small size company. That's not the sigh of a strong company....because they do not groom talent from within. It's not a company i will put my $$ in ...
    its a production related company... its the same everywhere... cost management to the extreme... everybody is replaceable... those asking the lowest wages gets the job... they are happy to let those with high pay leave, and no replacement if ur former colleagues can cope without them...

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    i don't really get this point.
    when u start working u will understand better the many complaints here... anyway ur future job is safe, should not see many of these things happening...
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  9. #29

    Default Re: article: PRs preferred over locals.

    Quote Originally Posted by flowerpot View Post

    when u start working u will understand better the many complaints here...
    no no no...

    why won't i want to invest in a company because it doesn't "groom talent from within"?

    i get the sense of discontentment if you are working in a place full of foreigners. that is unavoidable. but investing i am not sure what or where the point is..
    Last edited by night86mare; 30th September 2009 at 09:18 AM.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: article: PRs preferred over locals.

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    no no no...

    why won't i want to invest in a company because it doesn't "groom talent from within"?

    i get the sense of discontentment if you are working in a place full of foreigners. that is unavoidable. but investing i am not sure what or where the point is..
    ya investing, then all the more should invest in them since they get the job done with minimum cost...
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  11. #31
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    Default Re: article: PRs preferred over locals.

    Quote Originally Posted by flowerpot View Post
    ya investing, then all the more should invest in them since they get the job done with minimum cost...
    temasek already have 50% as a stakeholder...

  12. #32

    Default Re: article: PRs preferred over locals.

    Quote Originally Posted by flowerpot View Post
    ya investing, then all the more should invest in them since they get the job done with minimum cost...
    lol lol lol.. that's what i thought too...

  13. #33

    Default Re: article: PRs preferred over locals.

    [QUOTE=night86mare;5481427]no no no...

    why won't i want to invest in a company because it doesn't "groom talent from within"?

    QUOTE]

    lol....sometimes, it not worth explaining to people with narrow perspectives.
    The strength of a company lies not only in it's technology but it's people.
    Take apple for example and their line of ipod and iphones....Music quality wise, ipods cannot match up to creative. They also start late. However, they are the dominant player in this market. Simply becuase apple has good visionary leaders who market well. I always can't help muffling a guffaw when i remember Sim Wong Hoo appeared on TV, in the midst of ipod vs creative war, claiming " 好戏还在后头...Oh my god. They even engage paris hilton to market thier players.

    For dear hy****, it's the same, they are not attracting talents with thier low wages. They are not retaining talents with their low wages. I'm not sure if any of you remember the saga over their CFOs a while back. The fact that temasek put in 50% is not any good indication. FYI, temasek lose a chunk of their portfolio during the sub prime crisis.

    As to whether hy***** is doing well or not, i shall not comment. I just find their choices of projects ( or rather what projects they can win) in Algeria, Nigeria to be strange places. For non engineers out there...these places are not exactly good to invest in/build plants no matter wat. It might be for this reason that HY**** can win projects there...b/c they cannot compete against stronger companies in Oceania, EU or US areas.

    It's stock is doing well b/c of market sentiments. How long can market sentiments last? Think about it...

  14. #34
    Member Deyeno's Avatar
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    Default Re: article: PRs preferred over locals.

    Another perspective ....

    Why do companies look at FT ?

    For me 2 things Loyalty and Committement.

    Why do I say this.

    I am a foreigner been living in Singapore since 1990. I come here because I was offered a job and had the right skillsets required to work offshore.

    In 1997 there was a semi downturn in the Oil industry offshore, but onshore projects booming.

    So as I was out of work, I applied for a position being offered by Caltex, for Mechnical and Maintenance Engineers. The 350 that applied were whittled down to 30 and we all sat in a ballroom at the Mandarin Hotel, to do 3 hours of aptitude tests.

    At the end of this, further whittled down to 15, for further tests in the afternoon. While waiting for the results of whom would be in the final 15, I asked most present if they were also out of work, out of the 30 there 93.33% already had jobs. So I asked why they have applied, answer was more $$$$, chance to travel to USA paid for training, they all said stated that they only stay in one job for 2 to 3 years maximum and then move on.

    Another example of this, was another company whom I setup a Maintenance System. Got EDB grants, spared no expense in setting up this facility, (high tech aerospace), spent alot of time interviewing all people for the positions, from Engineers, QA/QC, Production Operators etc. In the end they employed 20 people all Singaporean. While the plant was getting constructed, all these people were sent to the US for training, in some cases 8months of training spread over 18months.

    This plant has been operating now for 5 years, within 2 years, 50% of the original staff had quit, gone to other aerospace companies. I was just at this company 4 months ago and out of the original 20 people hired, only 1 person is left.

    As the GM lamented to me, on training no expense spared, higher than average salaries, because they wanted the best, training per person was estimated at USD150K. So they have learnt their lesson, 75% of all the staff now are from outside Singapore, Malaysia / China / Phillippines / India. Salaries are on par with what the Singaporeans had been paid, but in this period not one of the new hires have left, most have been there 3 or more years.

    Look at construction sites, shipyards, manufacturing plants, where do most of the people come from.

    So tell me, whom is to blame if companies are employing FT to do jobs.

    Just giving my views on what I observe here in Singapore.


    Cheers ....
    40D|BG-E2N|24-105L F4.0 IS USM |70-200L F2.8 IS USM

  15. #35

    Default Re: article: PRs preferred over locals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deyeno View Post
    Another perspective ....

    Why do companies look at FT ?

    For me 2 things Loyalty and Committement.

    Why do I say this.

    I am a foreigner been living in Singapore since 1990. I come here because I was offered a job and had the right skillsets required to work offshore.

    In 1997 there was a semi downturn in the Oil industry offshore, but onshore projects booming.

    So as I was out of work, I applied for a position being offered by Caltex, for Mechnical and Maintenance Engineers. The 350 that applied were whittled down to 30 and we all sat in a ballroom at the Mandarin Hotel, to do 3 hours of aptitude tests.

    At the end of this, further whittled down to 15, for further tests in the afternoon. While waiting for the results of whom would be in the final 15, I asked most present if they were also out of work, out of the 30 there 93.33% already had jobs. So I asked why they have applied, answer was more $$$$, chance to travel to USA paid for training, they all said stated that they only stay in one job for 2 to 3 years maximum and then move on.

    Another example of this, was another company whom I setup a Maintenance System. Got EDB grants, spared no expense in setting up this facility, (high tech aerospace), spent alot of time interviewing all people for the positions, from Engineers, QA/QC, Production Operators etc. In the end they employed 20 people all Singaporean. While the plant was getting constructed, all these people were sent to the US for training, in some cases 8months of training spread over 18months.

    This plant has been operating now for 5 years, within 2 years, 50% of the original staff had quit, gone to other aerospace companies. I was just at this company 4 months ago and out of the original 20 people hired, only 1 person is left.

    As the GM lamented to me, on training no expense spared, higher than average salaries, because they wanted the best, training per person was estimated at USD150K. So they have learnt their lesson, 75% of all the staff now are from outside Singapore, Malaysia / China / Phillippines / India. Salaries are on par with what the Singaporeans had been paid, but in this period not one of the new hires have left, most have been there 3 or more years.

    Look at construction sites, shipyards, manufacturing plants, where do most of the people come from.

    So tell me, whom is to blame if companies are employing FT to do jobs.

    Just giving my views on what I observe here in Singapore.


    Cheers ....

    Let me just ask you this, why do you leave your country to work in Singapore? I presumed it's the opportunity to earn more and provide more for yourself and your family.

    So why are LOCALS seeking for better paying jobs in which they are qualified to do? Same reasons as why you left your country I'm sure. Those guys went through the same interview process as you, best men will get the job.

    Talk about loyalty, as least those people are loyal to their country, never leave the country and work overseas to become 'quitters', although most would love to be in that position

  16. #36
    Senior Member azul123's Avatar
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    Default Re: article: PRs preferred over locals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deyeno View Post
    Another perspective ....

    Why do companies look at FT ?

    For me 2 things Loyalty and Committement.

    Why do I say this.

    I am a foreigner been living in Singapore since 1990. I come here because I was offered a job and had the right skillsets required to work offshore.

    In 1997 there was a semi downturn in the Oil industry offshore, but onshore projects booming.

    So as I was out of work, I applied for a position being offered by Caltex, for Mechnical and Maintenance Engineers. The 350 that applied were whittled down to 30 and we all sat in a ballroom at the Mandarin Hotel, to do 3 hours of aptitude tests.

    At the end of this, further whittled down to 15, for further tests in the afternoon. While waiting for the results of whom would be in the final 15, I asked most present if they were also out of work, out of the 30 there 93.33% already had jobs. So I asked why they have applied, answer was more $$$$, chance to travel to USA paid for training, they all said stated that they only stay in one job for 2 to 3 years maximum and then move on.

    Another example of this, was another company whom I setup a Maintenance System. Got EDB grants, spared no expense in setting up this facility, (high tech aerospace), spent alot of time interviewing all people for the positions, from Engineers, QA/QC, Production Operators etc. In the end they employed 20 people all Singaporean. While the plant was getting constructed, all these people were sent to the US for training, in some cases 8months of training spread over 18months.

    This plant has been operating now for 5 years, within 2 years, 50% of the original staff had quit, gone to other aerospace companies. I was just at this company 4 months ago and out of the original 20 people hired, only 1 person is left.

    As the GM lamented to me, on training no expense spared, higher than average salaries, because they wanted the best, training per person was estimated at USD150K. So they have learnt their lesson, 75% of all the staff now are from outside Singapore, Malaysia / China / Phillippines / India. Salaries are on par with what the Singaporeans had been paid, but in this period not one of the new hires have left, most have been there 3 or more years.

    Look at construction sites, shipyards, manufacturing plants, where do most of the people come from.

    So tell me, whom is to blame if companies are employing FT to do jobs.

    Just giving my views on what I observe here in Singapore.


    Cheers ....
    You have to look at it in both POVs... employment is like any other trade or services, poeple go to where their services command the best price (also take note not just $ but perks included). So companies that do not offer good rewards or advancement oppotunities, will loose out, cannot always blame those who leave, all that left cannot be wrong right, there must be something wrong with that company's remuneration packages/advancement opportunities and many more aspects before someone decides to leave.

    FT are the same, countries like India has huge staff turnaround problem, people move from company to company for a small increment.

    Your scope of view is quite narrow.

    Anuyway, it is actually quite an interesting problem we have now, maybe it is time Singaporeans mature up and start exercising their voice (aka stroke of pen) wisely.

    ../azul123

  17. #37
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    Default Re: article: PRs preferred over locals.

    Singapore comparing now to 10 years ago people will not be unite as before........i cannot say this is FTs problem, it is a policy which start off in a wrong approach by our leaders.

    anyway, off track abit our dearest utilities going to increase more than 10% very very soon.

  18. #38

    Default Re: article: PRs preferred over locals.

    Quote Originally Posted by cosycatus View Post
    lol....sometimes, it not worth explaining to people with narrow perspectives.
    The strength of a company lies not only in it's technology but it's people.
    Take apple for example and their line of ipod and iphones....Music quality wise, ipods cannot match up to creative. They also start late. However, they are the dominant player in this market. Simply becuase apple has good visionary leaders who market well. I always can't help muffling a guffaw when i remember Sim Wong Hoo appeared on TV, in the midst of ipod vs creative war, claiming " 好戏还在后头“...Oh my god. They even engage paris hilton to market thier players.



    It's stock is doing well b/c of market sentiments. How long can market sentiments last? Think about it...

    er, no need to make personal attacks. i didn't understand your point, that doesn't mean that you have a right to tell me what my perspective is..

    there are many ways of looking at things too. you use ipod vs creative as an example. i can see so many differences between the mp3/media player industry between the one hyflux is a player in. tell me, how important is marketing when it comes to the environmental solutions industry? does it matter to a country that is running low on water whether the technology installed looks aesthetically nice? does it matter if the idea is "more creative"?

    for hyflux, i would like to think that it is quite clearcut that the emphasis is much more different. creative's approach in that separate arena, i.e. brute force features, value for money approach.. as opposed to apple's lifestyle orientated approach.. that is going to be alright. therefore your example fails to raise any new points.

    i will not disagree that good leaders are essential for any company. when it comes to investment today, a lot of people are more interested in making short-term killings rather than long-term commitments. therefore, i fail to see how hyflux's methodology (if it were essentially true) would fail to attract investors. like flowerpot says.. do the same thing for lessened cost.. that can only spell greater profit in the short term.
    Last edited by night86mare; 30th September 2009 at 12:54 PM.

  19. #39
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    Default Re: article: PRs preferred over locals.

    Quote Originally Posted by HeiPiGu View Post
    Let me just ask you this, why do you leave your country to work in Singapore? I presumed it's the opportunity to earn more and provide more for yourself and your family.

    So why are LOCALS seeking for better paying jobs in which they are qualified to do? Same reasons as why you left your country I'm sure. Those guys went through the same interview process as you, best men will get the job.

    Talk about loyalty, as least those people are loyal to their country, never leave the country and work overseas to become 'quitters', although most would love to be in that position
    Are you implying I am a QUITTER ....If so on what basis ....
    You talk about loyality:

    How many go overseas to study - is that loyal to Singapore and the education system?
    How many people migrate overseas - because of how they perceive Singapore?

    Why did I leave my country simple, my country went through an economic crisis, the company I was working for was laying off people, on the basis of Last On - First Off (me)and the big D I V O R C E.

    So needed to get away, make a clean break, start over.

    Any more reasons required .....

    Cheers ....
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  20. #40

    Default Re: article: PRs preferred over locals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deyeno View Post
    Are you implying I am a QUITTER ....If so on what basis ....
    my friend, sometimes, one has to acknowledge that you can share your experience, but people will only stick to what they want to see.

    walking on the street the other day, i heard a conversation between a girl in her mid -20s and her male friend, she was talking about how she would go overseas to work if she got a chance, "better pay mar", "better opportunities mar"..

    so the friend asked: "why you never?"

    and the reply was "cos cannot lor. no one want leh."

    it is easy to say that there are 2 sides to every story when it suits one's purpose. but seeing the 2 sides everywhere, acknowledging that.. that is a different story.

    there are locals who want to work back in singapore, because it is home. that's fine, though it is also highly doubtful whether it is a sense of attachment to the country.. or to other things they cannot let go of. in any case, there is no need to brand them as "loyalists".

    there are also locals who want to go elsewhere, but they are stuck here. sometimes it is not their fault, they had no idea that often they had to do a lot more to be able to work overseas (at least for the glam places).. internships at better companies.. a stronger resume.. these are "forced loyalists"..

    in any case, i think it is very disheartening when people like to compare, group people together. often groups of people are made up of different types of people.. you get a mix everywhere you go. there is no exception. often, we realise that we are talking about individuals here.

    it is the same, when expats in singapore cry murder about singaporeans and their behaviour.. they are to be abhorred. when we singaporeans cry foul about expats.. it becomes a buddy buddy thing. maybe a sense of identity is derived from this comradely session. who knows?

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