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Thread: Should photographers accept models with defects?

  1. #101
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Should photographers accept models with defects?

    The point isn't so much the price and quality obtained; the issue is that all pertinent facts should be disclosed.

    Doesn't mean you go hawker centre to order prawn noodles end up only give you the soup right?

    Quote Originally Posted by gazkw View Post
    i think photographers must also come from how much is the photo shoot

    sometimes it only cost 15-30 bucks so what kind of quality can you expect... but i do agree tattoos and braces should be disclosed. anything else can be quite subjective. if the model suay kenna pimple outbreak and you make a fuss over 15-30 bucks, i think thats a bit of an over reaction.

    dont tell me my backside got blemish also must disclose so paiseh one

  2. #102
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Should photographers accept models with defects?

    All these are valid points; but the key issue here is not so much good and/or bad quality, but non-disclosure, or misrepresentation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ed9119 View Post
    Beauty and defects are so subjective

    I trust that we all shoot with an eye to improving our craft .... and if your photography depends on a pretty perfect-everything to hold up your image..... then you have failed and learned nothing except bask in self-deluding praise.

    Law of natural selection will weed out the organizers who put together sloppy jobs so I dont really see the point of commoditizing 'beauty'.....

    What they throw at you..... you better work hard to earn those 'oohs' and 'aahs' .... $30 is your tuition fee... organizer gets profit to provide the subject, get the props and environment ready ..... its not your bribe to get an easy target...

    I quote a Rant below from friend Brian from several years back which I have permission to use:

    "People say 'beautiful', but it's not because the photograph is well-executed or has any creative or artistic value but because the subject itself is beautiful.

    In otherwords, take a snapshot of any sunset anywhere in the world and no one will say 'this is such crap' because sunsets are beautiful. If a person is even slightly technically competent or is using a camera in 'P' mode then this kind of picture is simple to get and doesn't hurt the photogs face to show friends or post for critique (unless there are honest *ssh*les like Ted & I around )."

    The real danger is that the photographer will actually belive that the photograph itself is beautiful, not the subject. Then he/she will cease the learning process...and spend the rest of their lives in the safe 'zone' that they've established churning out nothing but crappy images of beautiful subjects.

    The ones that know the difference between a beautifully executed photograph and a beautiful subject are the ones that excel. The others continue to produce eye candy and get offended if anything poor is said about the image as if you are insulting the beauty of sunset, or the bug, or the flower itself and not their image of it"

  3. #103
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Should photographers accept models with defects?

    He sent you a pm? Gee, why can't just put his view in the thread? Jian bu de guang?

    Anyway I don't see how his views are valid; unless he has a vested interest in keeping this sort of things quiet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Canonised View Post
    Hey bros ....

    this Mr Ninelives think that I am very mean by starting this thread and that I am making fun of people here ....

    I would want to ask if anyone here think the same like him, and if so, I would like to close this thread as I didn't think I have written anything so far that has pinpointed anyone or has demeaned anyone ....

    I only wanted organizers to be more responsible in their advertising in their shoots ....

  4. #104
    Moderator ed9119's Avatar
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    Default Re: Should photographers accept models with defects?

    err bro Vince, I think thread title is "Should photographers accept models with defects?" and not "Last minute switching of models because the one advertised (allegedly) fly aeroplane (misrepresentation)" or 'Why some shoots never start on time'

    I'm not a shoot organizer and I HATE speaking up for organizers , but if I were, I'd put a 'model comes as is' clause in the advertising .... reputation/notoriety, word-of-mouth/forum and time will sort out the rest

    Just my humble opinion .... but when it comes to non-disclosure, or misrepresentation of non uniform items (aside from minimum of 1 head with hair , 2 arms, 2 legs ,a body and all 10 fingers and toes) this is can go down a very long and dark road with no light for both organizer or photog

    peace
    Last edited by ed9119; 15th September 2009 at 09:38 AM.

  5. #105

    Default Re: Should photographers accept models with defects?

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    He sent you a pm? Gee, why can't just put his view in the thread? Jian bu de guang?

    Anyway I don't see how his views are valid; unless he has a vested interest in keeping this sort of things quiet.

    He didn't send PM, he mentioned it in another thread.

  6. #106
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Should photographers accept models with defects?

    Oh I see, okay

    Quote Originally Posted by HeiPiGu View Post
    He didn't send PM, he mentioned it in another thread.

  7. #107
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Should photographers accept models with defects?

    Hmm, well if you are interpreting what this thread is about solely based on the title, than you are correct. However, I prefer to interpret the thread not only based on the title, but based on the substance of the first post as well. Hence, I come to a conclusion (albeit different form yours) that this thread is about non disclosure and misrepresentation.

    As for the reputation thingy, I believe in this, which is why I am encouraging the posting of such misrepresentations with examples and details, naming organisers and/or models in a thread in this forum.

    As for the dark road, I think perhaps an easy way to let users judge for themselves, is to post the "advertised photos" and the photos actually taken on the day itself showing the model in her true light. If there are doubts about the bona-fide ness (or even some may criticise the skill of the poster in making the model, say, look fat) then a thread will encourage other participants of that same shoot to join in to give their own two cents. THe users of thsi forum can then judge for themselves if the complaint was valid, or frivolous.

    However, if no post/thread is done, then such deeds will be forgotten or even hidden.

    Quote Originally Posted by ed9119 View Post
    err bro Vince, I think thread title is "Should photographers accept models with defects?" and not "Last minute switching of models because the one advertised (allegedly) fly aeroplane (misrepresentation)" or 'Why some shoots never start on time'

    I'm not a shoot organizer and I HATE speaking up for organizers , but if I were, I'd put a 'model comes as is' clause in the advertising .... reputation/notoriety, word-of-mouth/forum and time will sort out the rest

    Just my humble opinion .... but when it comes to non-disclosure, or misrepresentation of non uniform items (aside from minimum of 1 head with hair , 2 arms, 2 legs ,a body and all 10 fingers and toes) this is can go down a very long and dark road with no light for both organizer or photog

    peace

  8. #108

    Default Re: Should photographers accept models with defects?

    Bro eddy

    if i advertised in the BBB an image of a lens that looks normal. Then you drove all the way to the other side of the island to buy the lens. Upon inspection, you found a scratch on the lens surface, and what would be your reaction?

    1. Who is going to compensate you for your time and effort if you decide NOT to buy?
    2. If the owner knew about the scratch but felt that it was not an issue because it was only a small scratch, do you think that it is fair to you that you were not informed of that before you decide to view that lens?
    3. If the owner knew about the defect only when you were deciding and hoping that you would buy it without knowing that defect, do you think that this is a fair deal?

    We are not complaining about a model having some ugly accessories, where these can be easily discarded before a shoot, but having braces (where it is impossible to remove on the spot) or oversize bigini (where there is no other alternative, since there is no spare ones, etc). If models have tattoos and the organizer declares as such, and even show an image of the tattoo, I am sure those photographers who sign on the shoot would gladly accept that tattoo/prop as an asset to his image profile.

    This thread is NOT necessarily directed at organizers, but most importantly at the models. All models should declare their deficiency to the organizers/photographers before accepting any assignment.
    always the Light, .... always.

  9. #109
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    Default Re: Should photographers accept models with defects?

    Quote Originally Posted by raincool2005 View Post
    ... " newly installed braces .." well done !
    I think he meant teeth braces, not the pair of braces

  10. #110

    Default Re: Should photographers accept models with defects?

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    As for the reputation thingy, I believe in this, which is why I am encouraging the posting of such misrepresentations with examples and details, naming organisers and/or models in a thread in this forum.

    As for the dark road, I think perhaps an easy way to let users judge for themselves, is to post the "advertised photos" and the photos actually taken on the day itself showing the model in her true light. If there are doubts about the bona-fide ness (or even some may criticise the skill of the poster in making the model, say, look fat) then a thread will encourage other participants of that same shoot to join in to give their own two cents. THe users of thsi forum can then judge for themselves if the complaint was valid, or frivolous.

    However, if no post/thread is done, then such deeds will be forgotten or even hidden.
    Firstly, it is not my business to name anyone here as I dont think this is a big issue for me since photography is NOT my ricebowl but only a pastime. I think for shooters who have such experiences will understand better what I am saying but for those who have never gone to a shoot OR face such situation before will not really feel how frustrated one can get in such a situation.

    Anyway, I was never in the mood to shoot model with big, reflective silver braces in their mouth, etc and so I have to disappoint you that i do not have any images to post here to show my point. I will leave it to you people to decide whether models and organizers should be more transparent in their advertising.
    always the Light, .... always.

  11. #111
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    Default Re: Should photographers accept models with defects?

    Quote Originally Posted by ed9119 View Post
    Beauty and defects are so subjective

    I trust that we all shoot with an eye to improving our craft .... and if your photography depends on a pretty perfect-everything to hold up your image..... then you have failed and learned nothing except bask in self-deluding praise.

    Law of natural selection will weed out the organizers who put together sloppy jobs so I dont really see the point of commoditizing 'beauty'.....

    What they throw at you..... you better work hard to earn those 'oohs' and 'aahs' .... $30 is your tuition fee... organizer gets profit to provide the subject, get the props and environment ready ..... its not your bribe to get an easy target...

    I quote a Rant below from friend Brian from several years back which I have permission to use:

    "People say 'beautiful', but it's not because the photograph is well-executed or has any creative or artistic value but because the subject itself is beautiful.

    In otherwords, take a snapshot of any sunset anywhere in the world and no one will say 'this is such crap' because sunsets are beautiful. If a person is even slightly technically competent or is using a camera in 'P' mode then this kind of picture is simple to get and doesn't hurt the photogs face to show friends or post for critique (unless there are honest *ssh*les like Ted & I around )."

    The real danger is that the photographer will actually belive that the photograph itself is beautiful, not the subject. Then he/she will cease the learning process...and spend the rest of their lives in the safe 'zone' that they've established churning out nothing but crappy images of beautiful subjects.

    The ones that know the difference between a beautifully executed photograph and a beautiful subject are the ones that excel. The others continue to produce eye candy and get offended if anything poor is said about the image as if you are insulting the beauty of sunset, or the bug, or the flower itself and not their image of it"
    Very well said. I have my share of photoshoots but unlike some of you I get all the 'models' myself. When I see a pretty/photogenic girl I approach her and asked if I can shoot her. Many times I don't know what 'defect' comes along but I invite my friends too (for free).

    Now not all girls say yes to you on the day itself, some took me months of regular call and chat before they consent. There was a time I have a beautiful girl in all angle but just happened on the day of shoot she had pimples all over. The other I had, she got a pretty face, I did't get to see the body (shall I asked her to strip and inspect?) for she was behind counter, three month to the arranged shoot she put on weight on top of that she was a bit 'fat' , My friends and I end up shooting the face and almost no body shots, still a fun day.

    I shot too a girl whose teeth were stained and didn't look nice with open smile, she knows , but I shot her smile and clean (PP) her teeth one by one. Very time consuming. I had a girl so beautiful in everything except her hands (God is fair to everyone ya?) so I had a hard time placing her hand, but as ED said here is where we learn.


    I think the word defect may not be the right word, I am yet to meet a human with no defect. I agree that teeth braces should be mentioned, but tattoo is individual taste, some tattoo enhance the shots.

    At the end I imagine if I am the organiser collecting $30, I won't be able to deliver. Unless we pay the model a hefty sum (pro) I don't think I dare to ask to see the defects myself.

  12. #112
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Should photographers accept models with defects?

    You may have misread my post as a direct challenge to you to prove what you said; please rest assured that it is not. I can understand your points totally and hence, my suggestion was in rebuttal to ed119 and is intended for future occurences to be narrated here.

    Otherwise, if everyone agrees that organisers/models need to change, but yet keeps quiet, then what incentive is there for any model/organiser to change? They know they will get away with it time after time since they are not made known.

    Quote Originally Posted by Canonised View Post
    Firstly, it is not my business to name anyone here as I dont think this is a big issue for me since photography is NOT my ricebowl but only a pastime. I think for shooters who have such experiences will understand better what I am saying but for those who have never gone to a shoot OR face such situation before will not really feel how frustrated one can get in such a situation.

    Anyway, I was never in the mood to shoot model with big, reflective silver braces in their mouth, etc and so I have to disappoint you that i do not have any images to post here to show my point. I will leave it to you people to decide whether models and organizers should be more transparent in their advertising.

  13. #113
    Senior Member Sion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Should photographers accept models with defects?

    Quote Originally Posted by Canonised View Post
    Should photographers accept models with defects?
    I don't think we should use the word "defects" on a human being as she is not a merchandise.

    Let's have a look at ourselves in front of a mirror, do we see many "defects" on us?


  14. #114
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    Default Re: Should photographers accept models with defects?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sion View Post
    I don't think we should use the word "defects" on a human being as she is not a merchandise.

    Let's have a look at ourselves in front of a mirror, do we see many "defects" on us?

    check left, nope...
    check right, nope...

    damn i just look so perfect!
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  15. #115

    Default Re: Should photographers accept models with defects?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sion View Post
    I don't think we should use the word "defects" on a human being as she is not a merchandise.

    Let's have a look at ourselves in front of a mirror, do we see many "defects" on us?


    Double eyelids is actually a body defect too, serious.

    I have single eyelids, so I'm perfect

  16. #116
    Member sprewell's Avatar
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    Default Re: Should photographers accept models with defects?

    the use of words like 'defect' is very disrespectful as some of the users here have already mention (in a much more subtle manner).

    In that sense, you see yourself photographing a product and not a portrait. If so, why complain that your shots have 'defects' when the approach to portraiture is fundamentally wrong?

  17. #117
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Should photographers accept models with defects?

    I think alot of people are missing the woods for the trees.

  18. #118
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    Default Re: Should photographers accept models with defects?

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    I think alot of people are missing the woods for the trees.
    well, isn't that all about being objective orientated? Pin Point Accuracy.
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  19. #119
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    Default Re: Should photographers accept models with defects?

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    I think alot of people are missing the woods for the trees.
    oh ya, just remembered... i guess a line like this would mean... probably we don't beat around the bush?
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  20. #120
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Should photographers accept models with defects?

    Seriously, I am having difficulties understanding these two quotes in relation to my point. But its okay, you are entitled to your views nonetheless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Del_CtrlnoAlt View Post
    well, isn't that all about being objective orientated? Pin Point Accuracy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Del_CtrlnoAlt View Post
    oh ya, just remembered... i guess a line like this would mean... probably we don't beat around the bush?

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