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Thread: Your views on the current surging property market

  1. #241
    Moderator diver-hloc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Your views on the current surging property market

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    I'll just like to expand a bit on this.

    Consider this scenario,

    MRT fares rise towards say, S$10 a trip due to policy factors. Bus fares, remain the same, but over time, becomes erratic and buses only arrive once an hr (to maintain the price)

    Now, on the one hand, we can say public transport is not affordable. On the other hand, we can also say we can lower our expectations and take the bus instead of the MRT, waiting for 1 hr and waking up early; instead of complaining that the public transport is no longer affordable. For me, I will prefer to lobby against the rise to S$10, whilst for you, you prefer to lower the expectation and take the bus. Both are fine approaches.

    I do understand where you are coming from, and I think you also do understand my views. Unfortunately, both views, whilst equally valid, can't really gel with one another. But at least after some to and fros, I think both parties now understand each other's points fully and I'm glad that is achieved in this discussion.

    Cheers!
    Vince123123

    Then what are you planning to do till your lobbying is sucessful....

    * sit at Hong Lim park all day long ??
    * boycott both MRT & Bus till they give in... in the mean time, stop going to work ??

    You still must do something to keep your life going, right ??

    Scuba & Father... For Life

  2. #242

    Default Re: Your views on the current surging property market

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    Nope, I'm pointing out the flaws in your argument using comparison with other countries as a basis.

    There is simply no basis for comparison. For example, in HK, starting graduates in my industry earn 3X what they earn in Singapore. Do housing prices rise 3X as fast as in Singapore?

    Cheers!
    Vince123123
    what basis are you talking about? I am not just saying hong kong. I am pointing out the rising asia property prices is as Asia wide trend.

    That is my point. hong kong, Seoul, Shanghai and singapore are all very different. When all the property prices are surging up in tandem, doesn't it shows that part of the reason for the increase in HDB prices is an Asia wide boom in property market? People are just thinking that Property prices in Asia is good for investment.

    my arguement does not rely on the similarities between the cities as a basis. I am very confused.

  3. #243
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Your views on the current surging property market

    Neither am I just pointing out that there are other relevant factors only in HK. HK was just used as an example that I know of. Since you don't even know the other factors, then why use as a basis for comparison?

    What if, all of these countries have a common factor, that their pay are 3X that of Singapore; are you still then maintaining that the comparison is valid?

    Quote Originally Posted by alantkh View Post
    what basis are you talking about? I am not just saying hong kong. I am pointing out the rising asia property prices is as Asia wide trend.

    That is my point. hong kong, Seoul, Shanghai and singapore are all very different. When all the property prices are surging up in tandem, doesn't it shows that part of the reason for the increase in HDB prices is an Asia wide boom in property market? People are just thinking that Property prices in Asia is good for investment.

    my arguement does not rely on the similarities between the cities as a basis. I am very confused.

  4. #244
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Your views on the current surging property market

    Well I believe both can be done together, do the short term solution and still continue the long term solution. Hence, I am no longer disputing your stand but seeing it as a different approach provided both work together.

    I only hope you can see that going with the short term solution ALONE will not solve it becuase you will end up just chasing and chasing; just as you say that going by the long term solution ALONE is not feasible becuase the people will die before they get there. If so, then we are at least, in agreement

    Quote Originally Posted by diver-hloc View Post
    Then what are you planning to do till your lobbying is sucessful....

    * sit at Hong Lim park all day long ??
    * boycott both MRT & Bus till they give in... in the mean time, stop going to work ??

    You still must do something to keep your life going, right ??
    Last edited by vince123123; 18th September 2009 at 12:29 PM.

  5. #245

    Default Re: Your views on the current surging property market

    Quote Originally Posted by diver-hloc View Post
    I thank you for accepting my apology... and I mean it

    While it may be true that we are doing nothing more than having a 'Healthy Debate'.... I'm just telling people that there are WAYS which they could still own their house without COV or selling off their kidneys.... if they really need their house soon.

    But you must remember YOU can't have everything YOUR way.... Theres no place on Earth that you can stay in Prime Location and yet pay peanuts (not the $600K type of peanuts). You get what you paid for.... if you doesn't need a House now and can wait.... feel free to sit and debate till the Cows come home.... But if you need your own place asap, example - Getting Marry, but your new Wife/Husband isn't willing to stay with the in-law... your Parents intent to sell and downgrade so that they have money for retiredment and ask you to look for your own place... You, at last, wants your own place soon to spread your wings.... etc

    Debate debate debate.... and praying doesn't means that Policy or Govt could change in time to benefits you. But lowering your expectation and getting by with what you could afford, surely WILL.

    THEORY & PHILOSOPHY is good.... but we can't all Sit & Wait can we ??

    I, myself, is a good example.... I just got out of the Navy and is at a new job during the 98-99 Asia Finance Crisis. My new pay is only $1200+.... my parents need to sell off their 3Room AMK flats because like everyone else, we have money problems. I'm left with few choices.... get a $200+K Resale flat at AMK with all its Mature Estate 'Hot-ness'.... or get a cheaper but bigger 4Room flat at Woodlands for $112-6K. Btw Woodlands isn't Ulu even when i moved in in 1999.... MRT station is just 5-7minutes from my place, already up and running on the day I move in.... plus a big Mall nearby (Causeway Point) within 1-2 years. And now, 10+years later.... my unit is worth $240-$300K (High Floor).

    If I die die buy Resale in AMK.... perhars the unit would have 'Earn' more by now... but I can't Afford/Get a loan with my low income. So, I did what i had been telling EVERYONE HERE.... I lower-ed my expectation and get a flat that I could afford.... not sit and complaint why I can't get this or that, how come this how come that....

    When Sh*t hits the fan... you can duck for cover, or get hit by it.... THEORY & PHILOSOPHY was no help to me then... and is no help to people who face my problems from 10years ago now.

    HDB housing IS affordable..... but only if you have the correct expectation.
    Hi diver-hloc, thanks for sharing your experience with us.
    Yes, I do agreed that we can only make do with current circumference and whether we can wait for the change in policy. It will take time for policy maker to realize the "flaw" in the system if they ever...

    It is a sad thing if both couple have to slog for the next 10 to 30 years just to repay the housing loan (particularly HDB) because it is priced this way. Our parents and older generations might benefits from the surging housing prices if they ever sell their house for a smaller one, but our generation and later will suffer because of this policy.

    Questions:
    1. How much will we left with for our generation and later after the repayment. Will we
    have enough for retirement?

    2. Because of the loan, most probably couple have to work.
    What if they have children? It is always important for one parent to take care
    of their child while their child grow up. It all about parent bonding.
    Look at what potential social problem we will be facing.

    Nevertheless, we hope our voice would be heard and things improved.
    By saying so, it doesn't mean that we can only hope because what if the policy doesn't change.

    For me, I have my plan.

    Thanks again for sharing.
    Last edited by scanner; 18th September 2009 at 12:29 PM.

  6. #246

    Default Re: Your views on the current surging property market

    Quote Originally Posted by diver-hloc View Post
    Then what are you planning to do till your lobbying is sucessful....

    * sit at Hong Lim park all day long ??
    * boycott both MRT & Bus till they give in... in the mean time, stop going to work ??

    You still must do something to keep your life going, right ??
    Think he meant to "vote" it.

    I think we should always make noise or complain. Lowering expectation doesn't always works.
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  7. #247
    Moderator diver-hloc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Your views on the current surging property market

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiao_shin View Post
    Think he meant to "vote" it.

    I think we should always make noise or complain. Lowering expectation doesn't always works.

    Yes.... we can see how 'Well' that worked so far....

    And in the mean time... before the 'Next Vote'... what will you do ??
    Last edited by diver-hloc; 18th September 2009 at 12:35 PM.

    Scuba & Father... For Life

  8. #248
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Your views on the current surging property market

    Hmm, well by raising awareness, we can slowly change people's mindsets. But if we all don't say anything and individually work to solve one's own position; then nothing will change.

    Even at this time, for all our awareness on the Internet, there remains a vast number of people who continue to be hoodwinked by sugar coated policy justifications. If even on the Internet we don't create awareness, there will be no hope for all of us.

    Quote Originally Posted by diver-hloc View Post
    Yes.... we can see how 'Well' that worked so far....

    And in the mean time... before the 'Next Vote'... what will you do ??

  9. #249

    Default Re: Your views on the current surging property market

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    Neither am I just pointing out that there are other relevant factors only in HK. HK was just used as an example that I know of. Since you don't even know the other factors, then why use as a basis for comparison?

    What if, all of these countries have a common factor, that their pay are 3X that of Singapore; are you still then maintaining that the comparison is valid?
    when I argue, I point out mistakes and flaws in arguements specifically. Example, when people suggest decoupling of hdb and private prices, I bring hong kong as an example on what are the consequences.

    u on the other hand, just keep saying what if what if.

    policy no good. no suggestion. just say no good.

    comparison no good because I cannot list out ALL other factors... or they have a common factor but dunno what is the common factor.....

    It is useless argueing what if what if..... All arguements are not 100% correct.

    I am just saying that the existence of an Asia wide property boom helps to support the theory that the reason behind the hdb surging prices is partly due to global influences rather than local government policies. u want to have a proper logical discussion, you should do your part and point out flaws in the arguement.

    If you know of a common factor which is the reason why the rest of Asia is having a property boom AND that common factor does not apply to singapore, go ahead and make your arguement. State the factor.

  10. #250

    Default Re: Your views on the current surging property market

    Quote Originally Posted by diver-hloc View Post
    Yes.... we can see how 'Well' that worked so far....

    And in the mean time... before the 'Next Vote'... what will you do ??
    I think it is slowly working its way. New generation now question more than take it lying down. Not such thing as 1 command, 1 action.

    If you compare Singaporean now and our parents generation, you will know. The last generations stil believed that voting is not secret. If you vote the "wrong" way, you will get into all sort of trouble, including not getting a HDB flat.
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  11. #251

    Default Re: Your views on the current surging property market

    Quote Originally Posted by diver-hloc View Post
    I, myself, is a good example.... I just got out of the Navy and is at a new job during the 98-99 Asia Finance Crisis. My new pay is only $1200+.... my parents need to sell off their 3Room AMK flats because like everyone else, we have money problems. I'm left with few choices.... get a $200+K Resale flat at AMK with all its Mature Estate 'Hot-ness'.... or get a cheaper but bigger 4Room flat at Woodlands for $112-6K. Btw Woodlands isn't Ulu even when i moved in in 1999.... MRT station is just 5-7minutes from my place, already up and running on the day I move in.... plus a big Mall nearby (Causeway Point) within 1-2 years. And now, 10+years later.... my unit is worth $240-$300K (High Floor).
    that is my point. If we adopt tighter regulation of HDB prices 10 years ago, your HDB prices will be like 120k. while private property prices are 600k. It will polarise the nation into two different groups of people, those living in public housing who are very poor and those living in private housing who are very rich in terms of asset value.

    The people in pubilc housing have very little hope of being able to upgrade to private housing.

  12. #252

    Default Re: Your views on the current surging property market

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiao_shin View Post
    Think he meant to "vote" it.

    I think we should always make noise or complain. Lowering expectation doesn't always works.
    That is one of the major reason why the government is making hdb prices go up and close to private properties. They know a LOT of singaporeans own a HDB. The electorate is from 21 years old to 100 years old. Most people by 28 or 30 would already have bought a property. So what percentage of the electorate owns a HDB property?

  13. #253
    Moderator diver-hloc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Your views on the current surging property market

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    Well I believe both can be done together, do the short term solution and still continue the long term solution. Hence, I am no longer disputing your stand but seeing it as a different approach provided both work together.

    I only hope you can see that going with the short term solution ALONE will not solve it becuase you will end up just chasing and chasing; just as you say that going by the long term solution ALONE is not feasible becuase the people will die before they get there. If so, then we are at least, in agreement

    You have my total agreement on this

    No system is ever perfect and/or can't be improve.... at the same time, we have to make do to get a roof over our head.

    Its almost the same as telling Newbies, who won't get the current camera model because the next new camera model is coming, to buy and shoot first because new models always comes.

    Would I be happy that the system be change, so that my children could afford their own home... Of course.
    Should I, myself, wait&wait&wait without providing a roof for my family.... Of course NOT.

    Scuba & Father... For Life

  14. #254
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Your views on the current surging property market

    That's unlike the normal posters who just say what they think without proper justification, I tend not to say things without first being sure of what I"m saying by prior verification.

    However, for your case, I'll make an exception since you do not believe in needed to justify or substantiate your statements. I will therefore rebutt your comparison by saying this: That in countries in Asia, the people have higher spending power and disposable income than in Singapore; such that such comparison with the other asian countries is incomparable. The boom of public housing in asia is not as fast as in Singapore. Hence, the rise in property prises in Singapore is unusually high comapred to the disposable income as well as rise (or lack thereof) of the same. Now, don't ask me to substantiate this, because in your book, there is no need to substantiate; just bare assertions is enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by alantkh View Post
    when I argue, I point out mistakes and flaws in arguements specifically. Example, when people suggest decoupling of hdb and private prices, I bring hong kong as an example on what are the consequences.

    u on the other hand, just keep saying what if what if.

    policy no good. no suggestion. just say no good.

    comparison no good because I cannot list out ALL other factors... or they have a common factor but dunno what is the common factor.....

    It is useless argueing what if what if..... All arguements are not 100% correct.

    I am just saying that the existence of an Asia wide property boom helps to support the theory that the reason behind the hdb surging prices is partly due to global influences rather than local government policies. u want to have a proper logical discussion, you should do your part and point out flaws in the arguement.

    If you know of a common factor which is the reason why the rest of Asia is having a property boom AND that common factor does not apply to singapore, go ahead and make your arguement. State the factor.

  15. #255
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Your views on the current surging property market

    In that case, lets all continue to work towards creating more awareness and to do whatever we can before change happens.

    In line with creating more awareness, here's another recent article on this HDB thingy:

    http://temasekreview.com/?p=13845 (i was more interested in the Editor's note than the actual article).

    http://temasekreview.com/?p=13871


    Quote Originally Posted by diver-hloc View Post
    You have my total agreement on this

    No system is ever perfect and/or can't be improve.... at the same time, we have to make do to get a roof over our head.

    Its almost the same as telling Newbies, who won't get the current camera model because the next new camera model is coming, to buy and shoot first because new models always comes.

    Would I be happy that the system be change, so that my children could afford their own home... Of course.
    Should I, myself, wait&wait&wait without providing a roof for my family.... Of course NOT.

  16. #256

    Default Re: Your views on the current surging property market

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    In that case, lets all continue to work towards creating more awareness and to do whatever we can before change happens.

    In line with creating more awareness, here's another recent article on this HDB thingy:

    http://temasekreview.com/?p=13845 (i was more interested in the Editor's note than the actual article).

    http://temasekreview.com/?p=13871

    Interesting articles.

  17. #257

    Default Re: Your views on the current surging property market

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    That's unlike the normal posters who just say what they think without proper justification, I tend not to say things without first being sure of what I"m saying by prior verification.

    However, for your case, I'll make an exception since you do not believe in needed to justify or substantiate your statements. I will therefore rebutt your comparison by saying this: That in countries in Asia, the people have higher spending power and disposable income than in Singapore; such that such comparison with the other asian countries is incomparable. The boom of public housing in asia is not as fast as in Singapore. Hence, the rise in property prises in Singapore is unusually high comapred to the disposable income as well as rise (or lack thereof) of the same. Now, don't ask me to substantiate this, because in your book, there is no need to substantiate; just bare assertions is enough.
    ?? does china people have higher disposable income than singapore??? not just Asian countries. Australia, NZ housing prices are all going up very fast. your facts are wrong to begin with.

    It is a fact that there is a housing market pickup in the entire Asia pac region. As much as you want to blame everything to the government, a major reason for this price upswing is just market forces.

  18. #258
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Your views on the current surging property market

    I don't need to quote any statistics to you going by your book, if you think they are wrong, please quote me the stats. Otherwise I will simply just give bare assertions as you have done. Along the same vein, since you only dispute China, (as I did with HK) the rest are deemed accepted.

    Quote Originally Posted by alantkh View Post
    ?? does china people have higher disposable income than singapore??? not just Asian countries. Australia, NZ housing prices are all going up very fast. your facts are wrong to begin with.

    It is a fact that there is a housing market pickup in the entire Asia pac region. As much as you want to blame everything to the government, a major reason for this price upswing is just market forces.

  19. #259
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    Default Re: Your views on the current surging property market

    What actually make people think that people who stay in publlic/govn housing is as poor in slum or cause polarising issue I do know quite a lot of people driving expensive car and stay in public housing, whether in Singapore or Malaysia. There are alway people take advantage of cheaper pubulic housing. Stay in cheape public housing won't make people poorer, but it make people cash rich which may make better use their cash in investment in other thing, rather than now all the money are in we all know whose hand...
    Sony Alpha 700 hobbyist

  20. #260
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Your views on the current surging property market

    Hehe there's actually a lot more where those came from. You can try reading http://theonlinecitizen.com/ as well as that site; both come up with regular well written alternative articles to the MSM.

    Quote Originally Posted by scanner View Post
    Interesting articles.

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