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Thread: Building up of portfolio...

  1. #41
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    Default Re: Building up of portfolio...

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    Customers who engage free photographers with no other benefit to the photographer may have no legal right to demand anything since their demands are not likely to be enforced by a court of law.

    As nightmare has said, that does not stop their mouth from posting all over the shop to complain; jsut as anyone can complain about anything, regardless of amount paid, who the person is, etc etc. There are also people in the wrong who complain, so if its just complaints alone, nothing can stop them (short of killing them).

    Also, if a customer who got free services tried to complain in a forum of sorts, there is a good chance that they will not be taken seriously by the audience reading the complaint; and I've seen replies in ST Forum's online discussion board who essentially lamblasts complainants of free services. Of course, if they are thick skinned enough, anyone can complain about anything.

    Hey, one queries... how about these 2 situations below? Whether the client has any legal rights to sue?

    • Photographer did not charge but client pay him an allowance, sort of to cover transport and effort?


    • Client gives an ang pow for his effort

  2. #42
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Building up of portfolio...

    True, but if the photographer does respond in that forum that the services were free (in addition to substantive rebuttals to the complaints), then the complaints will be mitigated to a very large extent.

    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil123 View Post
    I totally agree with you bro. There is no legal recourse if it is free work And, unless the photog is blur enough to sign away his copyrights, there are not much downside to offering free work. Other than time spent and sweat dripped. It is each photog's prerogative to decide what is right for him/herself.

    Nasty people will always be nasty, be it in person or in a forum. But it can still somewhat affect a photog reputation to a certain (but limited) extent. Since potential customers may do a search on the forum and see some negative words. Some people will stay clear of people with negative comments, "just to be safe".

  3. #43
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Building up of portfolio...

    Allowance and angpow will in my personal view (don't rely on it if you have a big case, pay for formal advice ), will constitute sufficient consideration to form a contract.

    If you want transport, then bring the receipt and pass the cost through to the client directly; in that way, the argument that there is no consideration to form a contract will be much stronger.

    Quote Originally Posted by hongwen37 View Post
    Hey, one queries... how about these 2 situations below? Whether the client has any legal rights to sue?


    • Photographer did not charge but client pay him an allowance, sort of to cover transport and effort?


    • Client gives an ang pow for his effort

  4. #44

    Default Re: Building up of portfolio...

    Quote Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post
    Wah piangz... some of you guys got so much energy to philosophize at length whenever this senstive topic of pricing is discussed!

    Personally, I think this Photo Biz forum should be closed. Every time a good question is being asked, whether by a newbie or someone who is sincere in learning, the topic inevitably will drift over to pricing and photography standards here. (The original question was on how to start a portfolio but what has it become??!) We can argue till the cows come home and there will be no fixed answers. The rules for what you should or should not do is very fuzzy.

    But I do generally agree that it's over-emphasized how some photographers (especially wedding) who seem constantly to tell others how they have increased their prices and why others should do the same. Sometimes I wonder, are there any ulterior motives why they are doing this? I think, the answer is that, their fate is dependent on many of the unknown newbie photographers. Imagine, if everyone starts to charge cheaply, who will want to go to the photographer who charges a lot more but produces standards that could be only a bit higher than the average Joe?

    But think about it, all you who are living the "atas" or good life: If everyone starts to increase their pricing, then who will serve the lower end market? And by lower end, I don't mean photographers who necessarily produce lower quality works. But those clients who can only afford to pay a certain amount due to their economic status.

    My fianl observations are:

    1. No one is going to help you much in answering good, sincere questions over in this "Photo biz" section.

    2. Do whatever you want as long as it pleases you or the people you are serving.

    3. At the end of the day, money is a human's best friend. I don't care how much a full time photographer can philosophize about his job and how much he loves what he is doing, only money talks. So whenever you hear a pro who says, Charge more! Think again. What is he actually saying? Is he really helping you in your passion? Or are there other ulterior motives on his part?
    Very much agree on this

    Quote Originally Posted by auden09 View Post
    hey guys, i wonder how do i build up my portfolio? i have approached people who needs services, but they are all interested in portfolio (which i have none). how do aspiring photographers build portfolios then?
    I would say, you may try look at others' portfolio, as others said, what you want to put in. Not necessary to be event shoot, can be just some city landscape / portrait of friends / gathering of friends / candid / ......These do not have to ask for anyone to pay.

    IMHO, if you good enough with all these in your portfolio, definitely someone will start ask you for some job.

  5. #45

    Default Re: Building up of portfolio...

    Quote Originally Posted by auden09 View Post
    hey guys, i wonder how do i build up my portfolio? i have approached people who needs services, but they are all interested in portfolio (which i have none). how do aspiring photographers build portfolios then?
    Hi, can start with
    - travel photography, be creative, let people know that you have good perspective
    - Friends gathering, family party, let people know that you can shoot nice candid shots, and capture good moments
    - Ask people around, for opportunity to tag on for wedding shoot.. or offer to shoot the groom side and table shots if the couple only engage one photographer

    hope above helps..

  6. #46

    Default Re: Building up of portfolio...

    Quote Originally Posted by kisim View Post
    Hi, can start with
    - travel photography, be creative, let people know that you have good perspective
    - Friends gathering, family party, let people know that you can shoot nice candid shots, and capture good moments
    - Ask people around, for opportunity to tag on for wedding shoot.. or offer to shoot the groom side and table shots if the couple only engage one photographer

    hope above helps..
    Yes, good idea.
    Sometimes, if you know your friend going to marry soon, you may just offer for something like pre-wedding shoot, like a special little gift for them, and to add into your portfolio.

  7. #47
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    Default Re: Building up of portfolio...

    Quote Originally Posted by kisim View Post
    Hi, can start with
    - travel photography, be creative, let people know that you have good perspective
    - Friends gathering, family party, let people know that you can shoot nice candid shots, and capture good moments
    - Ask people around, for opportunity to tag on for wedding shoot.. or offer to shoot the groom side and table shots if the couple only engage one photographer

    hope above helps..
    thanks!

  8. #48

    Default Re: Building up of portfolio...

    Quote Originally Posted by kisim View Post
    Hi, can start with
    - travel photography, be creative, let people know that you have good perspective
    - Friends gathering, family party, let people know that you can shoot nice candid shots, and capture good moments
    - Ask people around, for opportunity to tag on for wedding shoot.. or offer to shoot the groom side and table shots if the couple only engage one photographer

    hope above helps..
    My sentiments too! I guess interest and passion will propel you do go out and take more photos at events or nature or anything! and who knows, maybe a couple of photos on flickr will be spotted by organizations and you will be able to move on and you could be invited to do coverages. (at least that's how i started out...=D )
    Last edited by waltztitus; 14th August 2009 at 11:39 PM.

  9. #49
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    Default Re: Building up of portfolio...

    Any website to intro for this portfolio thingy?

    any website with large amount of space?
    SAMSUNG HMX- H100
    Videography :)

  10. #50

    Default Re: Building up of portfolio...

    In my case, i'm building up my portfolio by covering as many sports events and other conference events to be exposed to the different kinds of work environment. (I'm training to be more of a sports journalist). I'm paid to cover the sports events but not the other events but its not all about the money when you are first starting out.

    Just continue taking pictures and ask around people that you know, they usually give you the opportunity to do photoshoots or events for them.

    Just be humble and work hard in improving your photography.
    =)

  11. #51
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    Default Re: Building up of portfolio...

    cool...where u get such lobangs? not that im interested la. i dun intend to make photography a career.

  12. #52

    Default Re: Building up of portfolio...

    I beg to differ as well,

    I charge cheap, no style people will expect something somewhat. They have no clue good means expensive and expect alot from someone holding the camera but at the end frustrated as the photographer is still learning, colours not nice, compositions not nice. There is very little to based from these cheap clients as the new photographer has little experience to show clients how he see things.

    I charge expensive, got style, ppl will hire me for my style, at the end I get very little comments about work differing to their thoughts. They know what they are after when they come to me.

    Lawyers and photographers are not the same although we do charge the same by the hour.




    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    Actually I beg to differ. It is common that the greater the sum paid, the higher the expectations. On a sliding scale, if the lesser the sum paid, the expectation is therefore reduced. As they say, "yi fen qian yi fen huo". I think this concept is applicable to many things we encounter daily, from the amount you pay for first party lenses compared to third party lenses etc; expectation is directly correlated to price paid.

    In my line of work, I have also given free consultation to people on a "without responsibility" basis; meaning that they are free to take my advice as is if they trust me; but if I turn out to be wrong; then there is no responsibility to them. If they want a "responsibility based" consultation, then charges are imposed.

    Where no payment is being made, the other person will be hard pressed to hold the photographer liable for poor quality photos.

    A photographer who shoots for free and for no return at all, can even argue that there is no contract binding him to the other party; and hence, with no liability as to the results.

    Yes, the customer can complain all they want, but whether the photographer needs to take credence or even deal with it is another question altogether. If a customer wishes to broadcast a complaint, the photographer can rebutt by saying "the job is free" and let the audience judge for themselves who is being reasonable.

    I do disagree that people who complain are people who look for cheap or free services. There are many people who are demanding (reasonably so) when they are paying for top notch stuff. My own personal view is that the level of my demand will depend on how much is paid. If I got something for free, I won't bother to demand; if I paid top dollar, the person better jolly well do a good job.

  13. #53
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Building up of portfolio...

    That is becuase the client does not know what is the difference between cheap and expensive. It is the same as someone whose world of hamburgers is only confined to Macdonalds; and hence he does not know that a S$100 wagyu burger is all about.

    Once you get past this barrier, I'm sure you will agree that with a larger sum of money paid, you will expect more. If I tell you that you will pay S$300 to stay one night in Hotel X, and S$50 to stay in Hotel Y; will you still have the SAME expectations of standard and quality?

    Hence if your barrier is because the client doesn't know; then you can tell him that S$X will get you X standard, and S$10X will get you Y standard. Same as if he pays S$X for an Akira TV as opposed to S$Y for a Pioneer TV.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belle&Sebastain View Post
    I beg to differ as well,

    I charge cheap, no style people will expect something somewhat. They have no clue good means expensive and expect alot from someone holding the camera but at the end frustrated as the photographer is still learning, colours not nice, compositions not nice. There is very little to based from these cheap clients as the new photographer has little experience to show clients how he see things.

    I charge expensive, got style, ppl will hire me for my style, at the end I get very little comments about work differing to their thoughts. They know what they are after when they come to me.

    Lawyers and photographers are not the same although we do charge the same by the hour.
    Last edited by vince123123; 15th August 2009 at 05:47 PM.

  14. #54

    Default Re: Building up of portfolio...

    Quote Originally Posted by auden09 View Post
    cool...where u get such lobangs? not that im interested la. i dun intend to make photography a career.
    Dude so you just want people to ask u to shoot for fun ? Go do volunteer work as a free photog for yr school, charity group. Portfolio is when u get more serious - you can look as a portfolio as a collection of your best shots and not a collection of everything you shot.

  15. #55

    Default Re: Building up of portfolio...

    Dude a some what simplist way to look it at. Most people have a yard stick of measure - it just may not be very precise for somethings they do no use. If they had to use, with internet and doing their due deligence they should in short order have a better picture at least of price ranges and if they are paying they will form some value judgement about what they are seeing in terms of photo, service of lawyers, tailors what ever. If they cannot make out between a wolf and a dog, well it time to be a communicator and educate.

    By the way I like the way you present advice without prejucdice without professional engagement statement - 8-) so it means what you write about legal matters here is in same light ? Leading question format heheh

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    That is becuase the client does not know what is the difference between cheap and expensive. It is the same as someone whose world of hamburgers is only confined to Macdonalds; and hence he does not know that a S$100 wagyu burger is all about.

    Once you get past this barrier, I'm sure you will agree that with a larger sum of money paid, you will expect more. If I tell you that you will pay S$300 to stay one night in Hotel X, and S$50 to stay in Hotel Y; will you still have the SAME expectations of standard and quality?

    Hence if your barrier is because the client doesn't know; then you can tell him that S$X will get you X standard, and S$10X will get you Y standard. Same as if he pays S$X for an Akira TV as opposed to S$Y for a Pioneer TV.

  16. #56
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Building up of portfolio...

    Whilst you appear to be rebutting my statemetns, you are actually saying what I intended to say. Hence, it is clear we are on the same page.

    I dont understand what your second paragraph means.

    Quote Originally Posted by ellery View Post
    Dude a some what simplist way to look it at. Most people have a yard stick of measure - it just may not be very precise for somethings they do no use. If they had to use, with internet and doing their due deligence they should in short order have a better picture at least of price ranges and if they are paying they will form some value judgement about what they are seeing in terms of photo, service of lawyers, tailors what ever. If they cannot make out between a wolf and a dog, well it time to be a communicator and educate.

    By the way I like the way you present advice without prejucdice without professional engagement statement - 8-) so it means what you write about legal matters here is in same light ? Leading question format heheh

  17. #57

    Default Re: Building up of portfolio...

    Vince

    2nd para was about your statement on how legal advice given without payment ie non engagement of a lawyer , the lawyer is not responsible for wrong info and cannot be sued for damages. Which means any legal advice you give here is so such a nature as that you will not be responsible legally for any errors.

    I still disagree with your generalization on expectations follows price - in that it is a generalization in several places.

  18. #58
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    Default Re: Building up of portfolio...

    Quote Originally Posted by ellery View Post
    Dude so you just want people to ask u to shoot for fun ? Go do volunteer work as a free photog for yr school, charity group. Portfolio is when u get more serious - you can look as a portfolio as a collection of your best shots and not a collection of everything you shot.
    shoot for fun? no. i intend for this to be a part-time job while i do my uni studies. that's why i need a portfolio.

  19. #59

    Default Re: Building up of portfolio...

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    That is becuase the client does not know what is the difference between cheap and expensive. It is the same as someone whose world of hamburgers is only confined to Macdonalds; and hence he does not know that a S$100 wagyu burger is all about.

    Once you get past this barrier, I'm sure you will agree that with a larger sum of money paid, you will expect more. If I tell you that you will pay S$300 to stay one night in Hotel X, and S$50 to stay in Hotel Y; will you still have the SAME expectations of standard and quality?

    Hence if your barrier is because the client doesn't know; then you can tell him that S$X will get you X standard, and S$10X will get you Y standard. Same as if he pays S$X for an Akira TV as opposed to S$Y for a Pioneer TV.
    Great you seem to agree what I say but differ in your earlier statement but I do not think using food is the right way. You are trying to say the $2.50- $3 hawker food is nowhere as good as your expensive food in taste and people that eat $3 generally expect less.

    its a great weekend, instead of rebutting your life in Clubsnap, why not spend some great time with your partner. Enjoy & GET A LIFE! Life is not about fighting endless battles in the court, office of on your computer in CS.
    Last edited by Belle&Sebastain; 15th August 2009 at 10:05 PM.

  20. #60
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Building up of portfolio...

    Hmm, well I never purported to give any legal advice in this forum, my comments here are just the same as any other comment from any other ordinary poster; I doubt you'll attach any responsibility to any advice (legal, photographic, business, etc) given here in the forum as well

    Quote Originally Posted by ellery View Post
    Vince

    2nd para was about your statement on how legal advice given without payment ie non engagement of a lawyer , the lawyer is not responsible for wrong info and cannot be sued for damages. Which means any legal advice you give here is so such a nature as that you will not be responsible legally for any errors.

    I still disagree with your generalization on expectations follows price - in that it is a generalization in several places.

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