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Thread: Another type of copyright infringement - Music used in montages

  1. #21
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Another type of copyright infringement - Music used in montages

    The defence for schools toplay music is quite specific, and was enacted only in 2004; so there could be a lot of reasons why School A kena-ed and School B did not; All of you could be correct. Without knowing the specific facts both can actualyl be true.

    Quote Originally Posted by blurrblurr View Post
    Nope you are wrong. Some schools did some performance outside and was slap with a fee to pay for the songs played. They are just heartless.

  2. #22
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Another type of copyright infringement - Music used in montages

    Again, the defences available to educational insttitutions are specific, and sometimes they fall outside; thereby leading to liabilty.

    And technically speaking, under law, yes infringement is an infringement, but if you manage to fall under the defences, then the educational institution will not be liable for that infringement

    Quote Originally Posted by shojibake View Post
    Even in the education industry, infringement of copyright is still an infringement. There have been a few seminars and circulars about this. Probably the rights companies don't want to take on moe just yet.

    The targets of copyright infringement are just suay that they have been caught. Probably a slow day in the copyright industry. Personally i don't have much faith in the way copyright owners have their monies disbursed.

  3. #23
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Another type of copyright infringement - Music used in montages

    Compass cannot "fine" anyone since it does not have statutory powers to do so.

    What it can do is to:

    1. start an action for copyright infringement (and see how much damages it can actually recover from personal usage).

    2. more likely, threaten for (1) and try to make people pay up (ala Odex).

    Quote Originally Posted by icestrike View Post
    with regards to the other thread which i started
    so can COMPASS fine a couple who made their own montage?
    there's no profit involved, and its for own personal usage.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Another type of copyright infringement - Music used in montages

    Anyone knows if it's against the copyright law if I show my slide show of pictures with music added on Facebook? Strictly for friends to see only. No profits involved.

    Another issue that came to my mind... all those thousands of MTVs that we see posted by people in Youtube. Are they illegal?

    And also..... lots more below:

    If someone does a cover version of songs on his or her guitar, whether in public places, Youtube, etc, is it an offence too? Cos the song lyrics and music are copyrighted.

    If you turn on your stereo at say a picnic where everyone else is around, is it an infringement also? I can also think of those dancers practicing at the underpass near Esplanade. They usually have their stereos turned on quite loud to practice their dance moves. Everyone can hear the music. Illegal?

    I'm still not sure where the line is drawn. Even though it's not for profit, there is still some legal issues involved?

    For eg, I copy a DVD for my sister. I mean, she's my sister right? I don't expect her to go out and buy the exact copy of DVD when she can just get a copy from me. So there's no profit. Then her good friend at work wants to watch it too. So my sis copies her copy that she got from me. Now, her friend's family likes it too, so another copy is made. All along the way, no profits are involved, cos everyone seems to be in a way related to another. Not hard for you to realize that if this method of copying spreads, the DVD could possibly be copied by thousands! And it all started from me, and end with someone whom I don't even know! So how....???

  5. #25

    Default Re: Another type of copyright infringement - Music used in montages

    Quote Originally Posted by Priscilia View Post
    Anyone knows if it's against the copyright law if I show my slide show of pictures with music added on Facebook? Strictly for friends to see only. No profits involved.

    Another issue that came to my mind... all those thousands of MTVs that we see posted by people in Youtube. Are they illegal?

    And also..... lots more below:

    If someone does a cover version of songs on his or her guitar, whether in public places, Youtube, etc, is it an offence too? Cos the song lyrics and music are copyrighted.

    If you turn on your stereo at say a picnic where everyone else is around, is it an infringement also? I can also think of those dancers practicing at the underpass near Esplanade. They usually have their stereos turned on quite loud to practice their dance moves. Everyone can hear the music. Illegal?

    I'm still not sure where the line is drawn. Even though it's not for profit, there is still some legal issues involved?

    For eg, I copy a DVD for my sister. I mean, she's my sister right? I don't expect her to go out and buy the exact copy of DVD when she can just get a copy from me. So there's no profit. Then her good friend at work wants to watch it too. So my sis copies her copy that she got from me. Now, her friend's family likes it too, so another copy is made. All along the way, no profits are involved, cos everyone seems to be in a way related to another. Not hard for you to realize that if this method of copying spreads, the DVD could possibly be copied by thousands! And it all started from me, and end with someone whom I don't even know! So how....???
    The rule-of-thumb answer: you cannot broadcast copyright material, you cannot offer copyright material access to public. Playing music over the air for public to hear constitutes sharing. Putting on a website, even it's for personal friends, is a form of sharing.

    Uploading content that doesn't belong to you in youtube is not allowed, even TV commercials, TV shows, MTV, etc. (but copyright owners might choose to ignore because it generates awareness. Ignoring doesn't mean not an offense)

    Creating a song cover, or do a remix, is ok. But public broadcasting is not. If you broadcast in an event where license is paid (see my previous post), that ok.

    As for picnic cases, it depends on whether the broadcast is organised. If you set up a tentage and holding an event for hundreds of people, that needs license. If your stereo can be heard only by a dozen people (classifies as private enjoyment), the copyright authorities won't care, but police will come after you for noise pollution.

    Copying DVD for private use is not profiteering, but it results in DVD makers losing revenue. So that's still illegal.

    The bottom line is: just don't get caught. The authorities do not go after every offender simply because of the hassle. But if they think it's worth it, e.g. to create awareness (like the recent U.S. court case of a woman being fined several hundred thousand dollars for sharing a few songs), they could win the case.

    It's a known fact that it is impossible to achieve total copyright control, but everybody should self-police in order for the artists to make money and therefore sustain the creative industry.
    Last edited by pianodancer; 14th July 2009 at 11:58 AM.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Another type of copyright infringement - Music used in montages

    Quote Originally Posted by Priscilia View Post
    Anyone knows if it's against the copyright law if I show my slide show of pictures with music added on Facebook? Strictly for friends to see only. No profits involved.

    Another issue that came to my mind... all those thousands of MTVs that we see posted by people in Youtube. Are they illegal?

    And also..... lots more below:

    If someone does a cover version of songs on his or her guitar, whether in public places, Youtube, etc, is it an offence too? Cos the song lyrics and music are copyrighted.

    If you turn on your stereo at say a picnic where everyone else is around, is it an infringement also? I can also think of those dancers practicing at the underpass near Esplanade. They usually have their stereos turned on quite loud to practice their dance moves. Everyone can hear the music. Illegal?

    I'm still not sure where the line is drawn. Even though it's not for profit, there is still some legal issues involved?
    This i have no comments..but it is still bounded by some legal terms..but like what u say..it's a very thin line..

    Quote Originally Posted by Priscilia View Post
    For eg, I copy a DVD for my sister. I mean, she's my sister right? I don't expect her to go out and buy the exact copy of DVD when she can just get a copy from me. So there's no profit. Then her good friend at work wants to watch it too. So my sis copies her copy that she got from me. Now, her friend's family likes it too, so another copy is made. All along the way, no profits are involved, cos everyone seems to be in a way related to another. Not hard for you to realize that if this method of copying spreads, the DVD could possibly be copied by thousands! And it all started from me, and end with someone whom I don't even know! So how....???
    For this, it's a no no situation..u can lend the disc, but not make copies..
    This is an electronic post which requires no signature.

  7. #27
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Another type of copyright infringement - Music used in montages

    Profit or non-profit isn't usually a factor to consider when determining whether there is infringement.

    As for thin or non-thin line; actually I think the lines are quite clear; but usually those types of cases are not enforced by the rights holders. Its like the Government saying "We have a law against homo-sexuals, but we are not going to enforce it". Same analogy here.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Another type of copyright infringement - Music used in montages

    I see...

    Actually, a lot of people are in hot soup already if we want to follow those rules to the point. Indeed, the authorities have closed their eyes to many things.

    And I think life would be very miserable indeed if they wanted to clamp down on us very hard.

    But I feel sad about the music added to slideshows/montages constituting sharing, and thus a violation of copyright laws. I want my friends to enjoy my pictures with my fav nice music.
    Looks like can't now. Better be safe than sorry.

    Well, that's life... It's all about $ and rights.

  9. #29

    Default Re: Another type of copyright infringement - Music used in montages

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    Actually, the music used in wedding montages are usually simple once-off playing of a single track, rather than having to mix several tracks togehter.

    In such a case, the easiest solution I see is to do this:

    1. Ask the couple - what song you want to go with the montage?
    2. Prepare your montage with that song in mind, synchronizing the video slides and transitions with the song.
    3. Deliver the montage minus the song and tell the couple to add in the song themselves. If they want you to add in, then you need to pay S$X royalties to whoever. Chances are the couple will just do it themselves.

    Is this so hard?
    It's not that hard.. Just as the clents to provide the tracks and you put them in. Put in a disclaimer that the music is provided by the client and you do not provide or sell any music. Henceforth, you do not make a profit with the music. The images/editing/montage are your own copyrights and work which you assign to the clients, so that's covered and that's what the clients pay for.

    Put another disclaimer that the edited works is purely for the personal consumption only and it is up to the clients to obtain clearances if they intend it for broadcast.

    Like Pianodancer mentioned, certain venues already covered the royalties for broadcast/screening of copyrighted materials.
    Last edited by lsisaxon; 14th July 2009 at 05:49 PM.

  10. #30

    Default Re: Another type of copyright infringement - Music used in montages

    Quote Originally Posted by lsisaxon View Post
    It's not that hard.. Just as the clents to provide the tracks and you put them in. Put in a disclaimer that the music is provided by the client and you do not provide or sell any music. Henceforth, you do not make a profit with the music. The images/editing/montage are your own copyrights and work which you assign to the clients, so that's covered and that's what the clients pay for.

    Put another disclaimer that the edited works is purely for the personal consumption only and it is up to the clients to obtain clearances if they intend it for broadcast.

    Like Pianodancer mentioned, certain venues already covered the royalties for broadcast/screening of copyrighted materials.

    It's not that simple to get away with it.
    Producers of the works that violate synchronisation rights is still a violation of rights.
    Depending on the scale of your violation, you can be slapped with huge fines like some of the videographers here have experienced.

    Bottomline is to use library music. If clients die die want a specific piece of commercial music, make them sign an agreement and disclaim yourself from the responsibility should any legal disputes arise.
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  11. #31
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    Default Re: Another type of copyright infringement - Music used in montages

    Just an idea... Would a main guy have purchase the rights and then all other videographers sub-license from the main guy. Of course, then the end client gets an invoice from the main guy, and internally, the videographer and the main guy arrange the licensing themselves?

    Can this work?
    Don't brag about your accomplishments; Show us your future works.

  12. #32
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Another type of copyright infringement - Music used in montages

    Most of the time the licenses given do NOT include the right to sublicense.

    Quote Originally Posted by JacePhoto View Post
    Just an idea... Would a main guy have purchase the rights and then all other videographers sub-license from the main guy. Of course, then the end client gets an invoice from the main guy, and internally, the videographer and the main guy arrange the licensing themselves?

    Can this work?

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Another type of copyright infringement - Music used in montages

    What if the music was provided by the customer (wedding couple) and you state clearly that it is assumed that the couple has paid for said music? You are just adding it to the photo montage / video. I.E. your service is just to add the music track to photos / video.

    This way, you can also provide a service to help buy them the rights to play from the copyright owners if they so desire or use free music sourced by you.

    Anyway, I don't usually do weddings but was just thinking about it when I read this thread.

  14. #34
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Another type of copyright infringement - Music used in montages

    I think its safer and better to simply give montage without the music track.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zplus View Post
    What if the music was provided by the customer (wedding couple) and you state clearly that it is assumed that the couple has paid for said music? You are just adding it to the photo montage / video. I.E. your service is just to add the music track to photos / video.

    This way, you can also provide a service to help buy them the rights to play from the copyright owners if they so desire or use free music sourced by you.

    Anyway, I don't usually do weddings but was just thinking about it when I read this thread.

  15. #35
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    Default Re: Another type of copyright infringement - Music used in montages

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    Most of the time the licenses given do NOT include the right to sublicense.
    I dont mean exactly a sub-license. I mentioned specifically that the invoice is from the main guy.

    Getty Images has numerous channels for sales. Sometimes the client purchase from one arm and internally they work out something.
    Don't brag about your accomplishments; Show us your future works.

  16. #36

    Default Re: Another type of copyright infringement - Music used in montages

    Just be careful on this area and forget about challenging the fat man above.

    if he wants to play ball, you can even have your home searched for illegally recorded stuff, pirated stuff and what nots.

    IIRC, any form of song recording for commercial use is not permitted. So forget about incorporating them into montage. If you are paid $15k for the wedding shoot, you still have some to spare. But if you are offered a token for a non profit org, or even worse, helping out your cousin to dub the songs, you can get slammed quite hard on your toes.

    In Singapore, just follow rules. You cant bribe the fat guy; you just have to follow the rhythm.

    Its just like catching men peeing in the toilet without flushing. The officer will go in to look at you before he gives you 4D. Can you call him a gay and sexually disturbed individual? No.

  17. #37
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Another type of copyright infringement - Music used in montages

    Yes, that is exactly how a sublicense works. Rights holder licenses to Main Guy. Main Guy sublicenses to videographers but charges the cost of the sublicense to the client.

    No matter which way I see it, it is still a sublicense. If you wish to sublicense, you will need to get the right to do so from the rights holder. Most usual licenses do not include the right to sublicense (otherwise how will the rights holder control who gets sublicensed next?) and even if the right is given, it will be a limited right (perhaps to named sublicensees, or a fixed quantum etc) and you will need to pay a multiplier of the original license fee.


    Quote Originally Posted by JacePhoto View Post
    I dont mean exactly a sub-license. I mentioned specifically that the invoice is from the main guy.

    Getty Images has numerous channels for sales. Sometimes the client purchase from one arm and internally they work out something.
    Quote Originally Posted by JacePhoto View Post
    Just an idea... Would a main guy have purchase the rights and then all other videographers sub-license from the main guy. Of course, then the end client gets an invoice from the main guy, and internally, the videographer and the main guy arrange the licensing themselves?

    Can this work?

  18. #38

    Default Re: Another type of copyright infringement - Music used in montages

    No point asking about the various ways to get around the IP law.
    Do a google for Singapore Copyright Act and read up...I'm sure you'll get a better understanding of the issues and your rights.

    Am not a law practitioner so I cannot comment on the various possible scenarios.
    Also cannot remember all the details from a semester worth of contractual law and copyright law back in school about 15years ago...

    Fines for violation of music synchronisation rights don't come cheap depending on which labels or recording companies are taken action against the violator. It's definitely not worth the trouble otherwise I won't be investing in about US$5k worth of production library music for my company.
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  19. #39
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    Default Re: Another type of copyright infringement - Music used in montages

    Dont get me wrong. I am not trying to get around it. As much as we dont want other people to mess with our efforts to produce quality pictures, we wont want to mess up other people's effort when they produce quality music. What i am asking is if there are ways to get music at a price affordable to everyone. Some of us use music daily, some of us only once a month or so. I do hope that there are some attractive pricing for various types of consumers.
    Don't brag about your accomplishments; Show us your future works.

  20. #40
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Another type of copyright infringement - Music used in montages

    I believe that licenses can be tailored based on your requirements. If this is the ONLY reason you are exploring sub-licensing and what not, then I'll suggest you just give the rights holder or royalty collection agency a call and find out the price models available.

    Quote Originally Posted by JacePhoto View Post
    Dont get me wrong. I am not trying to get around it. As much as we dont want other people to mess with our efforts to produce quality pictures, we wont want to mess up other people's effort when they produce quality music. What i am asking is if there are ways to get music at a price affordable to everyone. Some of us use music daily, some of us only once a month or so. I do hope that there are some attractive pricing for various types of consumers.

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