Another type of copyright infringement - Music used in montages

[2100]

Seems like its a hot topic now in another thread....

But I think this one affects us a lot too. Already know 2 PGs and 1 VG affected. Heard its what...2k for 1 song, all the way to 12k for several songs. Letters served to the doorstep even (guess PIs are hired).

No joking matter man....was discussing with my pals and hotel staff.

Any stories here?

Imagine freelancers charging $600 cheap cheap, get slapped on the wrist. Its like doing a couple of weddings FOC.
So seriously if you are charging low....worth the risk?

Economy is bad, wolves are out for blood. Now I kena forced to advertise liao....

[Reportage]

Royalty Free music. pay one time and can use in any manner and as many times as you want.

[David]

Hi 2100,

May I know what music infringement are you referring to? Is it music placed on the PG's or VG's website? Do we need to get permission first to do that or at least acknowledge the singer on the website?

Or are you referring to even music played in the hotel also need permission first?

[Retro]

I believe this is with reference to the music used in video montages which are done by the photographer or videographer.

An extension of this would apply to the music played during the banquet? eg. 1st march in song, 2nd march in song, music played during dinner ....

Oh no

A beautiful event is going to become so ugly if this area is going to be policed.

[David]

Really?

I vaguely remember glancing over such topics over here some time back.

But as far as I know, many couples and my friends' weddings all simply play music from the CD. What should be the proper way? Ask permission from the recording company or have to pay certain fees?

[blazer_workz]

Originally Posted by David Really? I vaguely remember glancing over such topics over here some time back. But as far as I know, many couples and my friends' weddings all simply play music from the CD. What should be the proper way? Ask permission from the recording company or have to pay certain fees?

I think it's this one
http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showthread.php?t=540343

[pianodancer]

Originally Posted by David Really? I vaguely remember glancing over such topics over here some time back. But as far as I know, many couples and my friends' weddings all simply play music from the CD. What should be the proper way? Ask permission from the recording company or have to pay certain fees?

Playing copyright music in hotels or restaurants during the event (e.g. weddings) are fine because the establishments have already covered the royalty fee for all songs broadcast within their premises. COMPASS charge them annually based on the area size of their establishment. They should not charge the wedding couple separately.

If you are holding temporary events, e.g. void decks or outdoor canopies, then you need to apply to COMPASS and pay a fixed fee.

Issue raised by Desmond (2100) is that record companies are coming down hard on people who use copyright music and package them for sale - in this case, wedding montages.

What we need to find out now is that what is the procedures of using copyright music in montages, and how much. If it's within reasonable fee, then we could mark-up the montage fees and we satisfy the authorities.

[David]

Thanks blazer_workz for referring me to the link, and pianodancer for clarifying.

Even for the montages, I think many couples simply use them without paying? I don't think the PG or VG has any intention to "sell" the music directly. They simply included the music to make the montage more interesting obviously. But of course, legally, it may be viewed otherwise.

So tricky....

[pianodancer]

Originally Posted by David Thanks blazer_workz for referring me to the link, and pianodancer for clarifying. Even for the montages, I think many couples simply use them without paying? I don't think the PG or VG has any intention to "sell" the music directly. They simply included the music to make the montage more interesting obviously. But of course, legally, it may be viewed otherwise. So tricky....

You wouldn't want to go to court to argue that technicality, but the truth is: the PG or VG is using the copyright music to make money. Imagine if you use another song for your montage, would it make your montage nicer? So we can't escape the fact: the soundtrack in the montage helps in the sales.

The trouble is not on playing the montage, but on transacting the montage product. That's why it's the PG and VG that gets fined but not the wedding couple.

And I am inclined to believe that playing the montage in hotels do not constitute broadcast right infringement as long as the hotel is paying COMPASS annual broadcast license fee.

Here's the relevant link in COMPASS:
http://www.compass.org.sg/cIndex106.aspx

As you can see, every square metre is being accounted for, and hotels should pay for them as part of their operating costs.

For temporary events or ad-hoc locations, this link will help:
http://compass.org.sg/cIndex30.aspx

[David]

Yeah. most certainly, one cannot argue that in court based on that.

I think many may have broken the law but not know it?

Sometimes it's very tricky. For example, when one buys a music CD, and let's say your friends and family members like the songs in it. So you make copies for them. You are not selling. But technically, you are lowering the sales of the CD because by copying, your friends and family members need not go out to buy them. I think in a way it's infringement on the copyright law too.

Another case I can think of is sometimes in schools, students play music requests over the sound system to raise funds for their own clubs. Is that breaking the law also? Or sometimes, for certain school ceremonies, they play soft lounge music in the hall while the guests are arriving. I doubt they apply for any permission to use the music?

[pianodancer]

Originally Posted by David Yeah. most certainly, one cannot argue that in court based on that. I think many may have broken the law but not know it? Sometimes it's very tricky. For example, when one buys a music CD, and let's say your friends and family members like the songs in it. So you make copies for them. You are not selling. But technically, you are lowering the sales of the CD because by copying, your friends and family members need not go out to buy them. I think in a way it's infringement on the copyright law too. Another case I can think of is sometimes in schools, students play music requests over the sound system to raise funds for their own clubs. Is that breaking the law also? Or sometimes, for certain school ceremonies, they play soft lounge music in the hall while the guests are arriving. I doubt they apply for any permission to use the music?

That's how the world goes. You can do anything, just don't get caught. Be it breaking traffic offences, throwing litter in public...

I think schools have immunity because it's for education.

[vince123123]

Actually, the music used in wedding montages are usually simple once-off playing of a single track, rather than having to mix several tracks togehter.

In such a case, the easiest solution I see is to do this:

1. Ask the couple - what song you want to go with the montage?
2. Prepare your montage with that song in mind, synchronizing the video slides and transitions with the song.
3. Deliver the montage minus the song and tell the couple to add in the song themselves. If they want you to add in, then you need to pay S$X royalties to whoever. Chances are the couple will just do it themselves.

Is this so hard?

[ardnirun]

Originally Posted by pianodancer That's how the world goes. You can do anything, just don't get caught. Be it breaking traffic offences, throwing litter in public... I think schools have immunity because it's for education.

yup...education..plus non-profit..

[vince123123]

I never knew that the presence or absence of profit was a determining factor to whether there is infringement or otherwise. This is a much often misconception by the public; who think that non-profit use is non-infringement.

Originally Posted by ardnirun yup...education..plus non-profit..

[ardnirun]

Originally Posted by vince123123 I never knew that the presence or absence of profit was a determining factor to whether there is infringement or otherwise. This is a much often misconception by the public; who think that non-profit use is non-infringement.

tats y i said its education also..somehow when it comes to education's use..it has more leeway..

even doing a cover on music nowadays is infringement sadly...i think there was a time when the music industry wanted to sue software such as guitar pro because they are able to tabulate whole songs so that the public would be able to learn playing it

[vince123123]

Since you agree that presence or absence of profit is not a factor, then just say "education" and leave out the whole mention fo profit. If you say "education with non-profit" it is no different from "education".

Originally Posted by ardnirun tats y i said its education also..somehow when it comes to education's use..it has more leeway.. even doing a cover on music nowadays is infringement sadly...i think there was a time when the music industry wanted to sue software such as guitar pro because they are able to tabulate whole songs so that the public would be able to learn playing it

[shojibake]

Even in the education industry, infringement of copyright is still an infringement. There have been a few seminars and circulars about this. Probably the rights companies don't want to take on moe just yet.

The targets of copyright infringement are just suay that they have been caught. Probably a slow day in the copyright industry. Personally i don't have much faith in the way copyright owners have their monies disbursed.

[icestrike]

with regards to the other thread which i started
so can COMPASS fine a couple who made their own montage?
there's no profit involved, and its for own personal usage.

[blurrblurr]

Originally Posted by shojibake Even in the education industry, infringement of copyright is still an infringement. There have been a few seminars and circulars about this. Probably the rights companies don't want to take on moe just yet. The targets of copyright infringement are just suay that they have been caught. Probably a slow day in the copyright industry. Personally i don't have much faith in the way copyright owners have their monies disbursed.

Nope you are wrong. Some schools did some performance outside and was slap with a fee to pay for the songs played. They are just heartless.

[surrephoto]

Is remixing tracks illegal?

I was wondering whether the videographer/photographer could output the remix track and ask the DJ to play it along with the highlights video/montage etc.

Syncing the music and montage isn't a difficult with a little effort anyway.