View Poll Results: Are we being taken advantage off?

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  • Yes we are killing ourselves.

    242 34.82%
  • No, this will benefit the newbies.

    142 20.43%
  • I dunno.

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  • Its all part of the game.

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Thread: Has ClubSNAP become a sourcing spot for cheap photographers. Are we being taken adv?

  1. #361
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by itisnottheendorg
    The Great Wedding Photoshoot Competition

    I like to recommend a Colleagueís Cousinís God-Sisterís Auntís Niece who's looking for a Quality and Committed (read: Pro/SemiPro) Photographer for their wedding event on the eve of Christmas this year end.

    To help play a role in cultivating and promoting the interests of photography hereabouts, it has been decided the opportunity will be offered out in terms of a Great Wedding Photoshoot Competition.

    Flwg are the rules and regulation of this contest:
    1. ALL submissions will need to be provided in least 2 versions: 1 set of Prints and 2 sets of Softcopies in CD (in a decorated CD Jewel Case).
    2. Prints submitted may be glossy or matt, with or without border. They need be least 8R or 8RS in size on reasonably attractive mountings as Presentation of the submissions themselves will carry weightage towards winning.
    3. Digital Manipulation is not forbidden, but should not contort the reality of the picture itself and should instead enhance the beauty and allure of the subject.
    4. Candid shots are allowed, provided they do not distastefully distort, expose or embarrass the subject(s) of the shots.
    5. Submissions should include but not be limited to 600 shots across the entire event, from 24 Dec 2005 0300hr to 2359hr. Winners will be judged and ranked on the average of ALL their submissions, in order to promote consistency and motivation.
    6. ALL submissions, inclusive but not limited to prints, softcopies, negatives and slides, will remain property of the contest organizers, so will the rights to these items.
    7. This contest to open to all photographers of all ages and walks but contest organizers withhold the right to conduct a selection for 6 photographers of their choice should there be a case of exceeding number of participants enrolled (unstated).

    Application to Entry:
    1. Closing Date: 31 Nov 2005
    2. All participants are to submit in their current portfolios, preferably viewable online. Hardcopy Portfolios submitted may be retrieved by their owners at their own accord, else upon which after 1-2 days, they may be disposed of by the organizers at their discretion.
    3. All selected participants are to submit a $200 fee as admin and indemnity fees to register themselves for the series of sensitive events that are to take place in lieu of this competition. S$100 may be non-refundable upon proper final photos submission, subject to photographerís liability where incurred during the competition day itself. No receipt of entry and submission will be issued. As goodwill, selected participants may also be invited to a 6-course dinner at the discretion of the contest organizers, based on performance, availability and likeability.

    Winnings

    1st Prize - Cash S$300*
    2nd Prize Ė Cash S$200*
    Starters..sorry, error should read Consolation Ė Cash S$100*

    Panel of Judges
    - The Colleague (subject to availability)
    - His Cousin (subject to availability)
    - His Cousinís God-Sister (subject to availability)
    - His Cousinís God-Sisterís Aunt (subject to availability)
    - His Cousinís God-Sisterís Auntís Niece

    *Where the actual stated prizes may be unavailable, winners may be presented instead with prizes of equivalent/close value at the discretion of the contest organizers.
    *Finally, we regret to inform that only Winners will be notified, eventuallyÖif ever...whatever.

    Lastly, the Contest Organizers would like to wish every interested participant here to enroll early to avoid disappointment due to possible cutoff. Good Luck!
    Why waste effort type all this?

    Just need to say..

    1. Looking for free wedding photgrapher, or
    2. TFCD/P for wedding.

    Free finder food provided, All are welcomed!

    and put down the date and details. Ask your sisters, cousin dress like race queen, post a few photos here, Iím sure the attending photographers will be more that you guests.

    Don't forget to clear your PM box also.

  2. #362

    Default

    perhaps you might have missed my pt of posting this.

    Singaporean mah...like to go ONE BIG circle to NOT tell you what he/she wants in fact and in short

  3. #363
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default

    True also, but every Singaporean will not hesitate to tell you this:

    Free one, all I want.

    So you want something free, can! Best you tell people what is free for them first.

  4. #364
    Member bowwow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by itisnottheendorg
    The Great Wedding Photoshoot Competition

    I like to recommend a Colleagueís Cousinís God-Sisterís Auntís Niece who's looking for a Quality and Committed (read: Pro/SemiPro) Photographer for their wedding event on the eve of Christmas this year end.

    To help play a role in cultivating and promoting the interests of photography hereabouts, it has been decided the opportunity will be offered out in terms of a Great Wedding Photoshoot Competition.

    Flwg are the rules and regulation of this contest:
    1. ALL submissions will need to be provided in least 2 versions: 1 set of Prints and 2 sets of Softcopies in CD (in a decorated CD Jewel Case).
    2. Prints submitted may be glossy or matt, with or without border. They need be least 8R or 8RS in size on reasonably attractive mountings as Presentation of the submissions themselves will carry weightage towards winning.
    3. Digital Manipulation is not forbidden, but should not contort the reality of the picture itself and should instead enhance the beauty and allure of the subject.
    4. Candid shots are allowed, provided they do not distastefully distort, expose or embarrass the subject(s) of the shots.
    5. Submissions should include but not be limited to 600 shots across the entire event, from 24 Dec 2005 0300hr to 2359hr. Winners will be judged and ranked on the average of ALL their submissions, in order to promote consistency and motivation.
    6. ALL submissions, inclusive but not limited to prints, softcopies, negatives and slides, will remain property of the contest organizers, so will the rights to these items.
    7. This contest to open to all photographers of all ages and walks but contest organizers withhold the right to conduct a selection for 6 photographers of their choice should there be a case of exceeding number of participants enrolled (unstated).

    Application to Entry:
    1. Closing Date: 31 Nov 2005
    2. All participants are to submit in their current portfolios, preferably viewable online. Hardcopy Portfolios submitted may be retrieved by their owners at their own accord, else upon which after 1-2 days, they may be disposed of by the organizers at their discretion.
    3. All selected participants are to submit a $200 fee as admin and indemnity fees to register themselves for the series of sensitive events that are to take place in lieu of this competition. S$100 may be non-refundable upon proper final photos submission, subject to photographerís liability where incurred during the competition day itself. No receipt of entry and submission will be issued. As goodwill, selected participants may also be invited to a 6-course dinner at the discretion of the contest organizers, based on performance, availability and likeability.

    Winnings

    1st Prize - Cash S$300*
    2nd Prize Ė Cash S$200*
    Starters..sorry, error should read Consolation Ė Cash S$100*

    Panel of Judges
    - The Colleague (subject to availability)
    - His Cousin (subject to availability)
    - His Cousinís God-Sister (subject to availability)
    - His Cousinís God-Sisterís Aunt (subject to availability)
    - His Cousinís God-Sisterís Auntís Niece

    *Where the actual stated prizes may be unavailable, winners may be presented instead with prizes of equivalent/approx./close value at the discretion of the contest organizers.
    *Finally, we regret to inform that only Winners will be notified, eventuallyÖif ever...whatever.

    Lastly, the Contest Organizers would like to wish every interested participant here to enroll early to avoid disappointment due to possible cutoff from overwhelming enrollments. Good Luck!

    Vomit Blood!!!

  5. #365

    Default

    2. Prints submitted may be glossy or matt, with or without border. They need be least 8R or 8RS in size on reasonably attractive mountings as Presentation of the submissions themselves will carry weightage towards winning.

    need to print so many 8r or 8rs, cost alot, i want to join, but no money to print, and 1st prize too small, not enough to cover prints. So, wait long long for ppl to participate.

  6. #366

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_Yeo
    have u actually think if you are the couples, HONESTLY would u all pay S$2000 for photograhy service?
    Yes, I would, if the photography is excellent.

    In my post, I also used the word "typically" to indicate that the $2000+ price is quite common. Even Asian Aussie couples "on a no-frills low budget" accept and pay upper $1000+ for their wedding day photography.

    Bear in mind, some S'porean couples actually hold expensive dinner banquets in posh hotels costing tens of thousands. The gown rental also costs quite a bit.

    Compare that money to the peanuts paid to the photographers. Then you will realise how underpaid or how badly undercut many S'porean photographers are.
    Last edited by Jemapela; 11th July 2005 at 09:11 PM. Reason: More info

  7. #367

    Default Sickeningly correct

    Quote Originally Posted by bowwow
    frankly, i think the photography circle is not the only industry suffering from this attitude of "everything cheap, free better but must be good" attitude. it's sickening.

    how can local talent expect to grow, mature and be creative when the general public is not willing to pay for quality and appreciate it.

    personally, i'm wouldn't mind a good deal. everyone does. but i'm willing to pay when i feel i'm getting quality, no-nonsense standard.

    though i'm not a pro, everytime someone ask me to quote for some shoot or something i always check with my friends who are pros on what should be charged. i don't want to spoil their market or break their rice bowls. they are afterall my friends.
    Yes, you are correct. I believe we have witnessed this mentality/attitude so often.

    Actually, if we took a good hard look at ourselves, some of us may even be guilty of this mentality/attitude. Who's guilty? Raise your mouse!

    Imagine this scenario:

    A customer walked into a locksmith shop to buy a lock for his gate. He found 2 suitably sized locks, one priced at $5 and the other at $30. He bought the $5 lock and used it to secure his home. A month later, the lock spoiled. The customer took the spoilt lock to the shop and complained. He hoped to get a refund or maybe it had 1-year warranty replacement.

    This customer represents many Singaporeans and their cheapo mentality. This scenario was actually a true event told to me by a shop owner.

  8. #368
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    1. Though humorous, the post by itisnottheendorg is exactly what many slimy organisations do, even now. They do not want to pay a pro to do a shoot for their organisation. So they organise a photo contest. They spell out clearly that they own the copyright of all photos submitted. This is a RULE of the contest. The contestant got to sign an 'entry' form to give up all their rights to the photo. Have to include the original negatives or slides with the contest form and the print. The other slimy company organising such contests is in fact a photo library. They get tens of thousands of free photos this way and get the copyright. They later sell usage of these photos to magazines at high prices. After a while you notice which are the cheapskate organisers who are always doing this. Sometimes they even use a photo magazine as a "front" for these dirty dealings. And they get sponsors to give one or two cheap cameras as prizes to unsuspecting photographers. When they have got enough free photographs and own the copyright, (say 1/2 million of them) the "photo magazine" conveniently closes shop.

    2. In Japan ( in the past at least) people pay TOP $ for wedding shots. Not uncommon to have 8x10 cams used in formal studio shots. Technical perfection of the photographer is not in question. Only artistic element differentiates them. But if you as a photographer screws up when your client pays TOP $, you're in big trouble.

    3. Wedding photographers have extreme low status in Singapore. Found that out when I was helping out friends a very long time ago. Some of the other wedding guests who did not know I was a close friend of the groom/bride treat the "camera man" very rudely and badly. I only tolerated it for the sake of my friends and not to spoil his/her big day/night.
    Last edited by ricohflex; 11th July 2005 at 09:41 PM.

  9. #369
    Senior Member Halfmoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belle&Sebastain
    what agenda are you trying to cook up with this post? i do not see the merits at all?
    It is just my personal experience on how ASIAN tend to do business, and under cut others on COST alone...

    While the European will be willing to work on an agreement and ensure that they follow the agreement, and how they protect each other's interest. In the same trade...

    In SG, you see many bubble shop, luo han shop close shop. WHY??? All is copy cat, and try to get as much of the pie as they could by LOWER PRICE...

    How low can price go down??? Until all kill each others off, and slowly, all close shop????

    If all have an agreement to charge $X and all agree, they will not die so fast.
    Art is perception; Perception is art.

  10. #370
    vince123123
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    First off, any price agreement is only feasible if you have a small group of dominant players to decide.

    However, if you do that, you may run afoul of the new Competition Act.... :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Halfmoon
    If all have an agreement to charge $X and all agree, they will not die so fast.

  11. #371

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    Quote Originally Posted by ricohflex
    1. Though humorous, the post by itisnottheendorg is exactly what many slimy organisations do, even now. They do not want to pay a pro to do a shoot for their organisation. So they organise a photo contest. They spell out clearly that they own the copyright of all photos submitted. This is a RULE of the contest. The contestant got to sign an 'entry' form to give up all their rights to the photo. Have to include the original negatives or slides with the contest form and the print. The other slimy company organising such contests is in fact a photo library. They get tens of thousands of free photos this way and get the copyright. They later sell usage of these photos to magazines at high prices. After a while you notice which are the cheapskate organisers who are always doing this. Sometimes they even use a photo magazine as a "front" for these dirty dealings. And they get sponsors to give one or two cheap cameras as prizes to unsuspecting photographers. When they have got enough free photographs and own the copyright, (say 1/2 million of them) the "photo magazine" conveniently closes shop.

    2. In Japan ( in the past at least) people pay TOP $ for wedding shots. Not uncommon to have 8x10 cams used in formal studio shots. Technical perfection of the photographer is not in question. Only artistic element differentiates them. But if you as a photographer screws up when your client pays TOP $, you're in big trouble.

    3. Wedding photographers have extreme low status in Singapore. Found that out when I was helping out friends a very long time ago. Some of the other wedding guests who did not know I was a close friend of the groom/bride treat the "camera man" very rudely and badly. I only tolerated it for the sake of my friends and not to spoil his/her big day/night.
    wah lao!...finally someone gets my pt!

  12. #372
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    This thread really opened my mind to the freelancer situation in Singapore and the 'cheap' mentality of an alarmingly growing number of Singaporean individuals and enterprises. This reminds me of an incident not too long ago where I called the Liaohe Zhaopao's Beijing office. Spoke to this nice lady about freelance work and was initially told that they don't pay well. "You know Singapore company, lah! We don't pay so much money", she said. Fine! I've heard that from many other news agencies or wire services and so I pressed her for the price. She said 300 rmb (renminbi). Ok! Most of us freelancer get a minimum of US$50 or 400rmb per picture so not too bad, I thought. Then she said that it was 300rmb for a day's assignment!!!! She then said that they normally use local Chinese students for their work. Go figure that out! Even our national newspaper is inflicted with the cheap syndrome.

    BTW, I work as a freelance photog in Beijing. No weddings though....

  13. #373
    Senior Member Halfmoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123
    First off, any price agreement is only feasible if you have a small group of dominant players to decide.

    However, if you do that, you may run afoul of the new Competition Act.... :P
    The question is not on the size of players, but if they are willing to UNITE and AGREE to follow the agreement.

    I think if they all agree, no one can touch them... maybe I think too simply in some ways....

    In SG.... all those petrol company are practising what???? Cartel right??? Frankly, this com act is nothing more than WAYANG.... NTUC fair price.... they are using money from UNION, and wacking those small family store.... how fair is that??? Questionable in my opinion.... the way they used the fund. But no one will question them.
    Art is perception; Perception is art.

  14. #374
    vince123123
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    Well, all I can say is that there is legislation in place to combat anti-competitive practices. Whether or not it proves to be effective has yet to be seen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Halfmoon
    The question is not on the size of players, but if they are willing to UNITE and AGREE to follow the agreement.

    I think if they all agree, no one can touch them... maybe I think too simply in some ways....

    In SG.... all those petrol company are practising what???? Cartel right??? Frankly, this com act is nothing more than WAYANG.... NTUC fair price.... they are using money from UNION, and wacking those small family store.... how fair is that??? Questionable in my opinion.... the way they used the fund. But no one will question them.

  15. #375

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123
    Well, all I can say is that there is legislation in place to combat anti-competitive practices.
    oh yes there is alright...its call free market entrepreneurship.

  16. #376
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    Default Re: Has clubsnap become a sourcing spot for cheap photographers. Are we being taken adv?

    Quote Originally Posted by SniperD
    I believe if you have it, you can command a price tag. Yes I also agree that many has exploited in this forums.
    i dun quite agree, cos nowadays its so easy 2 jus find some else, some1 cheaper or free. my personal opinion tt
    . locals r not savy enough on such thingy,
    . tech advancement has made photography more accessible
    . $ of learning photography w/ digicams is almost FOC

  17. #377
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    Default Re: Has clubsnap become a sourcing spot for cheap photographers. Are we being taken adv?

    Quote Originally Posted by itisnottheendorg
    oh yes there is alright...its call free market entrepreneurship.
    also called catastrophy in d making!! cos b4 we kno it our earnings hav nosedived!!

  18. #378
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    Default Re: Has clubsnap become a sourcing spot for cheap photographers. Are we being taken adv?

    anyone willing to do a online petition that we'll not provide free photography service?

  19. #379
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    Default Re: Has clubsnap become a sourcing spot for cheap photographers. Are we being taken adv?

    Quote Originally Posted by Halfmoon
    It is just my personal experience on how ASIAN tend to do business, and under cut others on COST alone...

    While the European will be willing to work on an agreement and ensure that they follow the agreement, and how they protect each other's interest. In the same trade...

    In SG, you see many bubble shop, luo han shop close shop. WHY??? All is copy cat, and try to get as much of the pie as they could by LOWER PRICE...

    How low can price go down??? Until all kill each others off, and slowly, all close shop????

    If all have an agreement to charge $X and all agree, they will not die so fast.
    There is some truth in this.
    In Europe, it is customary that the professional fees are paid in full (or at least a deposit) before the shoot even commences.

    I spoke to a pro who now does tv commercials in the region and he said singaporean clients are the worst ... even after contract/agreement... want long credit, and can then even bargain price during payment. He was saying that sometimes as Singaporeans we may not think much of other "third world asian countries" in the region ... but some of them will pay him cash for work done - in USD.
    Not all countries are good, but some of them are actually better paymasters than singapore clients.

  20. #380

    Default Re: Has clubsnap become a sourcing spot for cheap photographers. Are we being taken adv?

    cannot fight them one lah.. esp the mentality that once u get a dslr, u automatically becomes a pro..
    sigh.

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