View Poll Results: Are we being taken advantage off?

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  • Yes we are killing ourselves.

    242 34.82%
  • No, this will benefit the newbies.

    142 20.43%
  • I dunno.

    42 6.04%
  • Its all part of the game.

    269 38.71%
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Thread: Has ClubSNAP become a sourcing spot for cheap photographers. Are we being taken adv?

  1. #341
    Senior Member Halfmoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricohflex
    Oh, then I realised why. He wanted FOC.

    He even specified what brand of camera I should use. ( L...E...I..* *....)
    See, people can be like that.
    What a CHEAP person.

    If he want FOC, he have no right to make so much demand.

    But if he provide equiment, it is different.
    Art is perception; Perception is art.

  2. #342
    Senior Member Halfmoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Potter
    if ALL photographers start to charge expensive, and everyone cannot find a SINGLE cheap one, then there is no problem.

    But there is ALWAYS some one who is willing to lower their rate what. It is human problems we can never solve.
    Asians are less UNITED than those ANG MO....

    ANG MO can, and will commit to any AGREEMENT....
    They know what is call AGREEMENT, and how to honor them.

    ASIANS, never.....

    Also... ASIANS are all MYOPIC IDIOTS... they only compete based on COST SAVING... and everything is CUT COST... like our govt.....

    There are many ways to compete... and COST is but one of the many ways available.......
    Art is perception; Perception is art.

  3. #343
    Senior Member Halfmoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowwow
    frankly, i think the photography circle is not the only industry suffering from this attitude of "everything cheap, free better but must be good" attitude. it's sickening.
    Sadly.... even if you try to get a job now, it is likely they will hire the cheaper guy... even if that is a foreigner, etc.....

    SG is suffering from this from many angle I look around.....
    Art is perception; Perception is art.

  4. #344

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    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights
    Do you know how many wedding couples don't have photographers?
    Purposely one?

  5. #345
    Member bowwow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halfmoon
    Sadly.... even if you try to get a job now, it is likely they will hire the cheaper guy... even if that is a foreigner, etc.....

    SG is suffering from this from many angle I look around.....

    i once had a call from this ex-colleague who wanted to contact my work assistant. ask me for the contact no. and all.

    get this! the reason being is this person wanted to employ my assistant to do my job for them as it would be cheaper than to offer and hire me!!

    they figured since i train my people well, hiring my assistant would be like hiring me!

    they don't bother to realise the fact that people are STILL learning and not ready to take on this kind of responsibility yet.

    you pay peanuts, you get monkeys!

  6. #346
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Potter
    Purposely one?
    Yes, save money lor.

  7. #347
    Senior Member Halfmoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowwow
    they don't bother to realise the fact that people are STILL learning and not ready to take on this kind of responsibility yet.

    you pay peanuts, you get monkeys!
    Seriously.... I like to QUESTION this mentality....

    Some place sell things cheap, and people BUY because it is cheap... but it last a short while, and need to buy again...

    But if you pay more, for quality, and can last around 2-3 times of the cheaper product, is that not more economical???

    Paying peanuts.... our ministers pay is PEG to top 5% of private sector, and not cheap pay... but I do not find them with exceptional results... and they do not need to resign for lousy performance.... non-liable.

    Based on one piece of paper to decide an individuals life is not a good yardstick.

    Say someone with degree with photograpy might not = good photographer, etc...... experiences also is VERY important...... and good techinically not = good end results..... at times....

    I simply cannot comprehend the mentality of SG...... all rather SHORT SIGHTED.......
    Art is perception; Perception is art.

  8. #348

    Lightbulb

    or myopic(pun intended). hehe!

    Quote Originally Posted by Halfmoon
    I simply cannot comprehend the mentality of SG...... all rather SHORT SIGHTED.......

  9. #349

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    Quote Originally Posted by Halfmoon
    Asians are less UNITED than those ANG MO....

    ANG MO can, and will commit to any AGREEMENT....
    They know what is call AGREEMENT, and how to honor them.

    ASIANS, never.....

    Also... ASIANS are all MYOPIC IDIOTS... they only compete based on COST SAVING... and everything is CUT COST... like our govt.....

    There are many ways to compete... and COST is but one of the many ways available.......
    what agenda are you trying to cook up with this post? i do not see the merits at all?

  10. #350

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    Think the moral of the story here is to see the big picture.

    If one ever wants to be a full-time photographer (better not use the word professional here - ha ha) in the future, then he/she should state clearly to the client etc that the cheap/under market rate shoot that he is doing now is a ONE-OFF thing. To so call open doors if you like. Next time will be on your "normal" rate. Then let the client decide if you're worth the 'market rate'. Honestly, if you're 'good', most clients won't mind paying the extra $$$ per hour or job - and get results they know they're happy with.

    This is what I did when I first started shooting full time and so far (luckily), clients understand when I explain to tell why I cannot charge cheap (or whatever that part-time freelancer with his 10/10 condition DSLR charges). Maybe some clinets just need education on why you (as a full-time photographer) cost more - like your backup camera, backup flash, CF card, nice CD-R with picture of event on it etc.

    Its like why we pay SIA captains/pilots so much to press the autopilot button. They're there (and trained) to quickly move the fan away should they decide that **** is on a trajectory towards it...

    So see the big picture or else if one ever turns full-time, you'll find that the money 'sucks' and give up.

  11. #351

    Default Spoilt for good

    Quote Originally Posted by kiwi2
    Well, DEFINITELY! This topic has been quite well-discussed. I would like to take a different perspective.

    I think technology has a big part to play in this. How come? See, film SLR cameras these days are packed with so many features. An entry level one has many features found in pro cameras. Think back to the mid-80s. Would there be so many freelance photograhers? I seriously doubt so. Cos cameras then were more difficult to operate. You might not have your AF (think Minolta was the first to formally introduce it back in 1985), you need to calculate the flash output manually, etc. And cameras aren't cheap then.

    As a Canon user, I'd like to give an eg. When the EOS650 and 620 first hit the market back in 1987, those were my dream camera bodies. They were darrrrn costly! Body alone would set you back some $2000, if not more. Today, these cameras are gathering dust. Used ones would probably be worth less than $400, if anyone is ever interested. With an EOS30/33 today, you get many more features. Bodies are so cheap even a student can own it and shoot on the spot without learning much about photography. With 7 point AF, 35 exposure areas, ultrafast USM lenses, E-TTL and what have you!!! Man, it's a matter of the camera asking the photographer: "Are you ready to press the shutter button? I'm ready whenever you are!!"

    I mean think about it... Just 3 years ago, owning a DSLR is a dream... At close to $5000 for a body, only the serious pros can own them. Now? Prices are dropping like crazy and more amateurs or complete beginners are rushing out to get mid-level DSLRs. Even the no-frills auntie next door might own a fairly sophisticated $600 compact digital camera.

    Another reason is that we now live in a century of "quick-fixes"... countless fast food joints, SMS, Internet explosion...Wedding photography is no different. You have the camera and a bit of experience, BOOM! Time to make some money by being a free-lance. It's so easy. And moreover, I personally find in Singapore, people don't appreciate photography as much as in the West. They'd rather spend a bigger sum on an extravagant 40-table wedding dinner than employ an experienced photographer.

    My take on the topic? It's unjustified to spoil the market by charging so low even for a freelance job. But no matter what we say, I think the harm is already done and... simply put, I think it's sad. It's as difficult as asking people not to rush onto MRT trains. Cheap photographers will continue to increase and it's become our culture here. Reputation of photographers here has gone down somewhat too (I know some consider them as "camera-man" and address them as "Where's the guy with the cam?), unless you're one of those well-known names.
    Hi kiwi2,

    You hit bulls eye! I would have said something like that (but not the same) myself.

    I began with a manual focus SLR and later became a Canon user, beginning with EOS630. Wahh... did the EOS620 and 650 cost so much? I paid about $600+ for my first hand EOS 630 body!

    Yes, I also agree that the market has been spoilt, and spoilt long ago, and long enough to never recover from the damage. Now based in Australia, I have also observed first hand, and by real life comparison, how photographers in S'pore are seen as "less-educated cameramen" by their wedding/event clients. The respect and appreciation of the skill/craft is simply not there. Hence, the respect and professional image of a photographer is simply lacking.

    In Australia, it appears that the trend with weddings (especially Caucasian weddings) is to hire 2 photographers. They have separate duties/roles, and I think that's a good idea (which won't be accepted by most budget-conscious S'poreans.) Personally, I have seen 2 photographers at several weddings here. If my sources are right, they are typically paid $2000+ or higher just for the wedding day event coverage.

    In Singapore, every client will tell you that very familiar sentence, "We are on a budget." Admit it, this actually means "We want low price."

    And with digital cameras getting cheaper, more and more freelancers have surfaced into this unregulated and oversaturated business of freelance wedding/event photography, all wanting a piece of the pie; the pieces have been shrinking since years ago and I have noticed it.

    I have quite given up on doing weddings/events in S'pore because the competition is too overwhelming and underpriced. I suspect that many jobs are simply not worth getting out of bed for.

    The damage has been done, and probably impossible to repair, at least not in the near future.

  12. #352
    Senior Member jOhO's Avatar
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    "We are on a TIGHT budget" is usually the statement (you forgot the word "tight")

    to which my reply : "when is a budget ever "loose"?" with a smile of course.

  13. #353
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    Maybe we are thinking too far from our own photographer point of view.

    have u actually think if you are the couples, HONESTLY would u all pay S$2000 for photograhy service?

  14. #354
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Some willing to top money but not all,
    Some want to pay $500 only, so let $500 photographers serve them.
    Some want free only, so let free photographer help them.

    But, why so silly give them $900 worth goods and service for $480 only, and later come back here to complain?

  15. #355

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    We live in the real world.....

    That's why companies in the States and Europe are now doing outsourcing in Asia, particularly China for manufacturing, and India for backend services....

  16. #356
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    So can I grab whatever assignments I can, and out scourge to photographers I found in little India?

    Guess I have to keep myself update to current globe business practice now.


  17. #357
    Senior Member Cheesecake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_Yeo
    Maybe we are thinking too far from our own photographer point of view.

    have u actually think if you are the couples, HONESTLY would u all pay S$2000 for photograhy service?
    yes i will.
    You'll Never Walk Alone! - i have the best job in the world!

  18. #358

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_Yeo
    Maybe we are thinking too far from our own photographer point of view.

    have u actually think if you are the couples, HONESTLY would u all pay S$2000 for photograhy service?
    If you are quite conscious about looks and quality, you will. My parents paid nearly 2 times the regular price fetches 20 years ago.

    And the photographs are still intact, well finished and preserved in our family archive.

  19. #359
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    Photography, like so many other services, are becoming commoditised. Hospitals in the US are using radiologists halfway around the world in India to read their x-rays, at a fraction of the costs of hiring their own. The benefit? Cheaper costs to their patients, at a perfectly accepatable quality! Isn't that worth doing?

    On the flip side to the photogs angst, as a consumer, I forked out in excess of $4K to get my wedding photography done many moons ago, when I was earning pittance and my entire honeymoon package cost even less than that. My wedding album, as professional and beautiful as it is, sits on the shelf 364 days a year and is dusted off only every anniversary.
    I cannot get over the feeling that I was severely ripped off by the "pro photog industry". If I could do it over, would I pay that much? Not on your life!

    Thankfully, my sister, who got married last year, had a perfectly adequate package for under $1500. Hail to technology and commoditisation, for they bring quality at an affordable price to the average consumer.

  20. #360

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    The Great Wedding Photoshoot Competition

    I like to recommend a Colleagueís Cousinís God-Sisterís Auntís Niece who's looking for a Quality and Committed (read: Pro/SemiPro) Photographer for their wedding event on the eve of Christmas this year end.

    To help play a role in cultivating and promoting the interests of photography hereabouts, it has been decided the opportunity will be offered out in terms of a Great Wedding Photoshoot Competition.

    Flwg are the rules and regulation of this contest:
    1. ALL submissions will need to be provided in least 2 versions: 1 set of Prints and 2 sets of Softcopies in CD (in a decorated CD Jewel Case).
    2. Prints submitted may be glossy or matt, with or without border. They need be least 8R or 8RS in size on reasonably attractive mountings as Presentation of the submissions themselves will carry weightage towards winning.
    3. Digital Manipulation is not forbidden, but should not contort the reality of the picture itself and should instead enhance the beauty and allure of the subject.
    4. Candid shots are allowed, provided they do not distastefully distort, expose or embarrass the subject(s) of the shots.
    5. Submissions should include but not be limited to 600 shots across the entire event, from 24 Dec 2005 0300hr to 2359hr. Winners will be judged and ranked on the average of ALL their submissions, in order to promote consistency and motivation.
    6. ALL submissions, inclusive but not limited to prints, softcopies, negatives and slides, will remain property of the contest organizers, so will the rights to these items.
    7. This contest to open to all photographers of all ages and walks but contest organizers withhold the right to conduct a selection for 6 photographers of their choice should there be a case of exceeding number of participants enrolled (unstated).

    Application to Entry:
    1. Closing Date: 31 Nov 2005
    2. All participants are to submit in their current portfolios, preferably viewable online. Hardcopy Portfolios submitted may be retrieved by their owners at their own accord, else upon which after 1-2 days, they may be disposed of by the organizers at their discretion.
    3. All selected participants are to submit a $200 fee as admin and indemnity fees to register themselves for the series of sensitive events that are to take place in lieu of this competition. S$100 may be non-refundable upon proper final photos submission, subject to photographerís liability where incurred during the competition day itself. No receipt of entry and submission will be issued. As goodwill, selected participants may also be invited to a 6-course dinner at the discretion of the contest organizers, based on performance, availability and likeability.

    Winnings

    1st Prize - Cash S$300*
    2nd Prize Ė Cash S$200*
    Starters..sorry, error should read Consolation Ė Cash S$100*

    Panel of Judges
    - The Colleague (subject to availability)
    - His Cousin (subject to availability)
    - His Cousinís God-Sister (subject to availability)
    - His Cousinís God-Sisterís Aunt (subject to availability)
    - His Cousinís God-Sisterís Auntís Niece

    *Where the actual stated prizes may be unavailable, winners may be presented instead with prizes of equivalent/approx./close value at the discretion of the contest organizers.
    *Finally, we regret to inform that only Winners will be notified, eventuallyÖif ever...whatever.

    Lastly, the Contest Organizers would like to wish every interested participant here to enroll early to avoid disappointment due to possible cutoff from overwhelming enrollments. Good Luck!
    Last edited by itisnottheendorg; 11th July 2005 at 05:40 PM.

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