View Poll Results: Are we being taken advantage off?

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  • Yes we are killing ourselves.

    242 34.82%
  • No, this will benefit the newbies.

    142 20.43%
  • I dunno.

    42 6.04%
  • Its all part of the game.

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Thread: Has ClubSNAP become a sourcing spot for cheap photographers. Are we being taken adv?

  1. #301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by espn
    I oni wanna hammer you for not calling me along

    tsys tys Show show ur pics leh
    No pics lah. Show you pics of my handsome face want? hehehee......
    The wedding day not yet come lah.......

  2. #302
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    Default Wu liao

    I reckon this thread has stirred up some hornet's nest for those that believed they ought to be paid for what they are worth...absolutely true! However, if someone request that your services be rendered free of charge for a certain project, the choice is entirely yours to say yes or go find someone else. So why kick up a big fuss whether CS has become a sourcing spot for cheap (totally an unfair call) photographer or whether you have been taken advantage of? I do not think there are anyone here that has been taken advantage of unknowingly....for goodness sake, the call was whether anyone is willing to contribute their time for a photo shoot at no cost. If you say yes then complain you should be paid, why say yes in the first place when the invitation is for photographer willing to invest their time and efforts for free.

    We can rant and rave for the next year or so till this thread ran out of steam but this does not bring us to the fact that you can say the magic word "No" plus its a general invitation and you are not obliged to reply. For the professionals, if they are confident in their works...there are no issues whether they will be paid or not. For that matter, they probably charge through the roof for their time. We have all got to start somewhere. None paying jobs are a good starting point for us to gain the necessary experience and if the hobby becomes a career, I congratulate you. If you become the next Wee Khim or Russell Wong...I congratulate you too.

    Perhaps I can put it this way. While out shopping, you were accosted by one of those time shared touts that says you have won a free trip to Bangkok. You know very well that to get the gift you will have to sit through 45 mins of brainwashing since they tell you from the start. You can thus chose one of two choices. To sit through it all, get the gift and keep your mouth shut or to walk away. Same thing applies to the call for photographers. You can choose to do it for free or you can walk away. You are going in with your eyes open so why complain whether you have been taken advantage of when you so willingly took up the offer in the first place.
    Last edited by chynakym; 27th September 2004 at 07:54 PM.

  3. #303
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    Default Actually, it's not about spoiling the market...

    Hi T System, with regards to your post, it's not really about low pay and undercutting pro photographers. Yes, it does spoil the market to a certain extent, but i think the bigger worry for me is that newbie photographers going into this don't realize how bad a deal it is.

    First off, let's get this straight. They shoot the event for free, with their own gear, on their own time and dime. The newbie photographer, by Singapore and International Copyright laws, own the full rights to their images. Guess what? The couple has technically no say on how the images be used. In fact, in this situation, the couple, by law, has to adhere to the terms and condition set down by the photographer on the usage of the images. I don't think it's the cheap photographers which are solely driving down market rates. It's the photographers themselves who have no idea about copyright issues and their failure to enforce the rights they have on the control of their creative material.

    And yes, it's up to the individual photographer to determine if they wish to be exploited or not. Perhaps you had no qualms assisting photographers for free, but in my eyes, you got exploited, and there's really no reason to allow others to be exploited. There is seriously never any reason to do work for free. Even a fresh assistant should get paid in any event where the photographer benefits from his/her services. Why? there's no garauntee that the pro photographer would have the time, knowledge or inclination to pass on anything to the newbie. And for newbies out there, there are gigs which pay, so you don't have to settle for less. Another thing that worries me is that new photographers are so willing to do things for free that they end up screwing themselves. Can you imagine Raffles Hotel saying, since we have a new chef in the kitchen, we'll do your wedding buffet for free. To top it off, we'll even let you stipulate what dishes you want and the quantity. Would we not agree Raffles Hotel would be stupid to do something like that? Yet, young photographers are doing that to themselves.

    You say the couple would not have hired a photographer if not for you. Well, as it turns out from the way you described it, they still have not hired a photographer because they are getting the service for free. That's not so much the worry. i wonder is if the other photographer is getting paid but does not want to give a share to the second photog. That would really be screwed up.

    Finally, you say they are not cheapo because the lady is a marketing executive and the husband is a german expat. Now, i have no idea what they are like, but i do have the problem with the fact you've basically made the generalization that marketing executives and german expats are not cheapos. Now, i do have to say that i know many marketing execs and german expats, heck, even german expats who are marketing execs who are extremely cheapo and wouldn't give a dime to save their mother's life.

    Quote Originally Posted by tsystem
    Also, I do understand that its unfair for pro-photographers that newbie photographers are offering to do jobs on `damn-low' pay or even free for building their portfolios. It can be really up-in-your-ass feeling... yeah, it sucks.

    It spoils the entire market.

    But please understand that the wedding photographer `job' I posted earlier on is NOT a paid job and the couple is NOT my client... and I most certainly am not spoiling any market.
    And if it wasn't for me, they wouldn't even be hiring a photographer for the day. As the couple prefer to have it captured on Video - yes, they hired a professional video guy.

    And They are not cheapo.... the female (my colleague) is a marketing executive and she is getting married to a german expat..... so please do not label them as cheapos.......

    *pro photogs please pardon my rantings..... gotta get some message across to some peeps who post without reasoning

  4. #304
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    Default

    I believe that those free-photographers are hobbiests. They do it because they enjoy it. They are looking for models, opportunities to show and hear that their work is appreciated and their skills are considered good enough for wedding etc purposes. Actually this is a free opportunity for the amateurs to try and enhance their skills. If amateurs ask money for it, they may lose this opportunity, because their models may go to a better established business (what we call professionals). The prize is not money, but fun, satisfaction, appreciation, and some others I may not be aware of.

    Here, the profesisonals should ask themselves " How much difference can a professional photographer make? For that difference, how much are the costumers willing to pay? How much are the professionals charging for it? "

    If some of the models/customers think that they don't need a professional photographer (that is someone who does it for money), nobody can blame them. They are trying to save money. It is like using public transport. Public transport may not be as good as travelling in a limo, but it is a choice ...


    Also, it is a nice wedding gift to young Singaporean families too ...

  5. #305
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    Default Well said

    Well said Alpie....

  6. #306
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    Default

    So why not get fun, satisfaction and appreciation AND get paid as well. Think about it. If someone isn't willing to pay you, they probably didn't really appreciate your work to begin with. Bet you even the lowest budget of couples probably paid for their gown, their wedding dinner, the invitation cards, etc, etc. So if everyone else is paid, why not the photographer?So charge lower than a "pro," but don't do it for free if the rest if the wedding isn't. At least cover your costs.

    Hobbyist or not, sure, there's nothing to stop a photographer from working for free just for a pat on the back. But maybe the best pat on the back can be a nice paycheck. There's an old adage among many photographers. Charge $20 000 and your work is treated as art. Charge $10 000 your work is treated as a valued commodity. Charge nothing and your work is treated like crap. So if you're charging nothing...it might be good enough, but it sure as hell isn't art.

    Quote Originally Posted by alpie
    I believe that those free-photographers are hobbiests. They do it because they enjoy it. They are looking for models, opportunities to show and hear that their work is appreciated and their skills are considered good enough for wedding etc purposes. Actually this is a free opportunity for the amateurs to try and enhance their skills. If amateurs ask money for it, they may lose this opportunity, because their models may go to a better established business (what we call professionals). The prize is not money, but fun, satisfaction, appreciation, and some others I may not be aware of.

    Here, the profesisonals should ask themselves " How much difference can a professional photographer make? For that difference, how much are the costumers willing to pay? How much are the professionals charging for it? "

    If some of the models/customers think that they don't need a professional photographer (that is someone who does it for money), nobody can blame them. They are trying to save money. It is like using public transport. Public transport may not be as good as travelling in a limo, but it is a choice ...


    Also, it is a nice wedding gift to young Singaporean families too ...

  7. #307

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ckuang

    You say the couple would not have hired a photographer if not for you. Well, as it turns out from the way you described it, they still have not hired a photographer because they are getting the service for free. That's not so much the worry. i wonder is if the other photographer is getting paid but does not want to give a share to the second photog. That would really be screwed up.

    Finally, you say they are not cheapo because the lady is a marketing executive and the husband is a german expat. Now, i have no idea what they are like, but i do have the problem with the fact you've basically made the generalization that marketing executives and german expats are not cheapos. Now, i do have to say that i know many marketing execs and german expats, heck, even german expats who are marketing execs who are extremely cheapo and wouldn't give a dime to save their mother's life.
    Firstly, my apologies coz i was simply too lazy and didn't see a point in explaining the whole cheapo issue... . Anyways, you're correct... Execs & expats (rich or not) doesn't mean they're not cheapos. Just some simple image i wanted to instill into the person who replied in my `looking for free slave' thread. Anyways, they're really nice peeps who're not really despos needing the whole ceremony captured in the form of pics/photos... like i said - they're more interested in the video. Couple's personal preference I suppose.
    As for my part, I wanted to gather the whole wedding into frames so that i can hand pick a handful of photos that i hope I can be successful in compiling into a nice wedding gift for the couple.
    My `looking for a slave' thread was sparked off by myself and its not the couple's requirement. All the `terms and conditions' layed down are solely my effort.
    Things like copyrights of the pictures to the photographer... and who has the rights to keep the pics...blah blah blah.... i respect that. But I have placed the terms there so that those not agreeable to them should not reply to the thread or to PM me their interest.
    They can very well seek paying jobs/assignments elsewhere. What I did was to create an opportunity for people who are interested in this `field' of photography , A CHANCE.
    Not for freelancers looking for assignments to earn some bucks.

    That said, hopefully now you understand better and as to why i'm quite pissed with the replies I've got.
    Plus the fact that the couple are actually willing to give the `Slave' a token (which I do not see as a mere covering of transportation, more like $50 or MORE) even when they didn't ask for an extra photographer - not even 1 photographer to begin with. They offered it when I told them there might be another photographer (coz I hope to get more pics with two photographers) around and that i will give the couple the pics at the end of the day.

    Do I have to list all these down in my simple `looking for a photographer thread' ? I do not think so, right? Its a simple thread whereby if not agreeable, just ignore. Agreeable, just state your interest. its simple actually.
    Its not like I requested for a freelancer or `Looking for wedding photographer - WILL PAY' ..... weird how some peeps interpret threads in forums....... but hey, everyone's entitled to voice their opinions......
    BUT WOULDN'T IT BE NICE TO DO SO IN A MORE APPROPRIATE THREAD?? Such as this one?

    I understand that you do not support even newbie photographers doing jobs for free or assisting. So would you rather have them pay to have pictures taken of some bikini model or some other professional model? Of course they are paying for the time of the professional and equipments needed for the shoot - you know what i mean... . *And my sincere apologies to organisers of such shoots, and participants* I'm just trying to get a message across.
    You shouldn't be directing your concerns to me as I agree with you that assistants of photoshoots should get paid for their services rendered.
    To make it clear, I wasn't looking for an assistant. More of a kind soul willing to sacrifice some of his time to contribute to a newly wed couple Clearer now? Looks like I gotta spoonfeed every detail of my intention before i can clear up matters....... lotsa typing man. *GIMME A BREAK! I only wanted to look for some help~~~~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ALL I WANTED WAS FOR SOMEBODY TO HELP ME!!!!!! WHY?????????? WHY DO I HAVE TO TYPE SO MUCH!!!!!!! MY GAWD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!

    HAving said all that, i now summerize:
    1) My `looking for photographer' thread is not a paying JOB
    2) Looking for a 2nd photographer to cover the wedding is my requirement, and not the couple's. TAKE NOTE.
    3) Execs & Expats - may or may not be cheapos
    4) when I brand the photographer I'm looking for a `Slave' I was being sacarstic...... yes.

  8. #308

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    you should list down the general terms n conditions, (eg. some benefits as such)

    imagine doing for free n tying down by some many requirement.


    If you are looking for a "free" gift to render to your colleague?
    What does says of your character? Anyway you are taking the photo for
    your friend on that day.

    A better phrasing to put away any misunderstanding like eg.

    Need assistant for wedding day..

    If not this is like some other forums I came across where forumers wanted free things giving reason like -

    1) you don't need it
    2) I am poor
    3) I am a student

    If you are too lazy to post properly, then don't even put the thread across.
    From your original posting it does not hint to me abit of you being humble or anything at all. Also the executives and expats who are all almightly may shown what you think of certain spieces of humans.

  9. #309

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    Quote Originally Posted by bwilly
    you should list down the general terms n conditions, (eg. some benefits as such)

    imagine doing for free n tying down by some many requirement.


    If you are looking for a "free" gift to render to your colleague?
    What does says of your character? Anyway you are taking the photo for
    your friend on that day.

    A better phrasing to put away any misunderstanding like eg.

    Need assistant for wedding day..

    If not this is like some other forums I came across where forumers wanted free things giving reason like -

    1) you don't need it
    2) I am poor
    3) I am a student

    If you are too lazy to post properly, then don't even put the thread across.
    From your original posting it does not hint to me abit of you being humble or anything at all. Also the executives and expats who are all almightly may shown what you think of certain spieces of humans.
    Whatever

  10. #310

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    Quote Originally Posted by tsystem
    Whatever

    Regarding the wedding banquet.

    As a paid professional taking photo, I never seen one really have a chance to have a good meal at wedding banquet.

    Even when the toasting is done, the photographer are going around taking candidate shots for the album.

    Unless this kind photographer is only expect to take the group photos.

    I hit your soft spot.. unfortunately for you.

    ah.. you are never serious, even though you are talking abt your own as well as your almightly expat n executive reputation..
    Last edited by bwilly; 30th September 2004 at 02:41 PM.

  11. #311
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    Default

    this is a very interesting thread....

    outsourcing anyone??? i think outsourcing photogs will be the IN-THING in years to come???

    OT: tsystem...ho seh boh!!!!
    Last edited by rncw; 30th September 2004 at 02:48 PM.

  12. #312

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    Quote Originally Posted by rncw
    this is a very interesting thread....

    outsourcing anyone??? i think outsourcing photogs will be the IN-THING in years to come???

    OT: tsystem...ho seh boh!!!!
    yo tao kay!! Ho seh.... ok lay...

    Kopi someday?

  13. #313

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    Quote Originally Posted by bwilly
    Regarding the wedding banquet.

    As a paid professional taking photo, I never seen one really have a chance to have a good meal at wedding banquet.

    Even when the toasting is done, the photographer are going around taking candidate shots for the album.

    Unless this kind photographer is only expect to take the group photos.

    I hit your soft spot.. unfortunately for you.

    ah.. you are never serious, even though you are talking abt your own as well as your almightly expat n executive reputation..
    My apologies but i don't understand what you think my soft spot was.
    The only soft spot I've got are for girls to see and inturn becomes hard.... so if that's the one you're refering to... i'm not gay.

    I just can't be bothered to reply any further with regards to the thread thats already sucessful. Long live expats..... why? Coz I'm gonna be one soon

    All the best in your photography life

  14. #314

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    Quote Originally Posted by tsystem
    The only soft spot I've got are for girls to see and inturn becomes hard.... so if that's the one you're refering to... i'm not gay.
    notti notti...

    Quote Originally Posted by tsystem
    I just can't be bothered to reply any further with regards to the thread thats already sucessful. Long live expats..... why? Coz I'm gonna be one soon
    wha...? you leaving??? Den what about ME???

  15. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by gremlin
    notti notti...



    wha...? you leaving??? Den what about ME???
    think maybe he's the photog thats being outsourced to other country...as expat???

  16. #316

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    Quote Originally Posted by rncw
    think maybe he's the photog thats being outsourced to other country...as expat???
    I'm being outsourced to a construction company in Bangladesh as a construction worker.

  17. #317

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    In my opinion, any fee is better than no fee. When I was like in art school and somebody said some bitchy statement like if you give it to me free I want it, I feel so insulted because I feel that my stuff(talent, skill, experience, whatever) is more than that. So if you want to entertain those freebie sluts then go ahead and let them know that your work is really worth nothing.

    On the other hand, events, like weddings(no batteries included), can be contested as somewhat of a middle ground of the exclusively professional and the pro-sumer(someone who has a camera and knows all about numbers and numbers). In a sense the public opinion is unclear about wedding photographers. In part because some camera totting troll can produce a somewhat same result as the working wedding photographer. What the working wedding photographer has to distinguish himself is a) experience b) a good portfolio c) a keen eye for happenings that are x-tra, like grandpapa digging his nose or bridesmaid rolling eyes in disgust because the groom is so goddamm hedious. His images can connect on a more personal level. His images can evoke emotions about the wedding because he is able to take a more documentary approach to the subject.
    He probably also understands light better, and knows how to work his way around so that that goddamm ugly groom looks at least human.

  18. #318

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    sometimes, if you shoot for free it doesn't mean your work is worth nothing, but rather your work is worth more than money can measure...
    DR KOH KHO KING

  19. #319
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    Default

    At least the cost should be covered, fresh set of batteries, new CF card, CD, maintainance of camera, flash ... etc etc

    Just in case that the free photogs don't know, a wedding shoot wears out your equipment, your equipment has a lifespan.
    Even paid photogs are not paid enough. Given the cost of quality equipment today.

    Don't you agree?

  20. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by ortega
    At least the cost should be covered, fresh set of batteries, new CF card, CD, maintainance of camera, flash ... etc etc

    Just in case that the free photogs don't know, a wedding shoot wears out your equipment, your equipment has a lifespan.
    Couldn't agree more. Many people fail to realize in this area, all these are hidden costs on your side.

    Quote Originally Posted by ortega
    Even paid photogs are not paid enough. Given the cost of quality equipment today.

    Don't you agree?
    Over the years, the cost of equipment have increase how many folds, and yet wedding couple still complain $500.00 for a actual day wedding photography very expensive now a day.

    Inexperience photographers may start with low price strategy, but must be quick to understand the photography as a business.

    If once decide to remain photography as hobby, occasionally doing shooting as sideline to fund this expensive hobby, please do yourself and other photographers a favor, donít let customers take advantage on you. Charge a fee; factor your time, effort, and everything.

    If you think you wish to do it for free for whatever reasons, it is fine also, as long you know your time, talent and your gears is worth something and decide to give away for free happily.

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