View Poll Results: Are we being taken advantage off?

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  • Yes we are killing ourselves.

    242 34.82%
  • No, this will benefit the newbies.

    142 20.43%
  • I dunno.

    42 6.04%
  • Its all part of the game.

    269 38.71%
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Thread: Has ClubSNAP become a sourcing spot for cheap photographers. Are we being taken adv?

  1. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by SniperD
    yeah!! someone revived the thread
    Answer the question, dammit!

  2. #262
    Senior Member Sion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SniperD
    yeah!! someone revived the thread
    Okay you want revival you'll get revival.

    I think a photo forum such as this would be an ideal place for us amateurs who are "good" enough to accept commercial assignments to agree on what's the minimum we should accept. Most of the time we undersell ourselves because of our ignorance of the market price.

    It would be good for eveyone including the buyers if we compete on quality, service and creativity instead of price. Unless of course the client ask only for a "everyone can take" shot. Even a "everyone can take" will turn out differently in the hands of different photographers.

    If none of us who are "good" enough to accept commercial assignments want to accept an el cheapo wedding, the couple just have to shoot their own wedding. Right?

  3. #263
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    hahaha.. thanks Sion but I have long given up on this thread coz it's to each its own.. we all have to start somewhere, whether newbie, amateur or professional... I'm still a newbie

  4. #264

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    Quote Originally Posted by SniperD
    hahaha.. thanks Sion but I have long given up on this thread coz it's to each its own.. we all have to start somewhere, whether newbie, amateur or professional... I'm still a newbie
    yah too each its own...i had the feeling too when i first came here last year..a place for sourcing cheap photogrpahers.

    But professional photographers always have their place to stay so long as they are good & have lotsa experience.

    Not equipment although it constitutes to it.

    By the way, no offence, wedding photography is one of the lower form of professional photography. Commerical photography gets alot more than that. but for a purpose...on what they do best.

    Commercial photography is not juz camera & shoot. its years of training the craft, eye for photography, the lighting techniques over the years (be it tungstun or Flash), producing (location, casting, props...etc), the equipment (medium format with digi back, pro lenses, laptop, lights, studio, etc that sets back at least a decent $50-100K), stylists (fashion styling etc), make-up & hair, model, Digital imaging artist, & finally,,CONCEPT from agency or client (usually from a Creative or Art Director) from the very biginning of each job

    usually event photographers cant get much, so Pro Photographers dun do it.
    most will do editorial work & commercial work. in fact wedding is out for commercial photographer although its a very lucrative market.

    So to each its own...theres always a drawline so not to worry.
    Last edited by AnonymousPro; 23rd April 2004 at 01:45 AM.

  5. #265

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    by the way, Pro architecture photographers in Europe get 5-10K & beyond for a picture. its one of the hardest form of photography....alot on exposure & multiple exposure, DI or Post pro, large format, PC shift etc...
    Also on lightings for interior...very intricate lighting design...
    Really good & experience architecture photographers.... Very rare in Singapore, also no demand anyway!
    Last edited by AnonymousPro; 23rd April 2004 at 01:47 AM.

  6. #266
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    haha.. thanks for sharing Anonymous Pro

  7. #267

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    Quote Originally Posted by AnonymousPro
    Really good & experience architecture photographers.... Very rare in Singapore, also no demand anyway!
    You can say that again. I work for a company with the largest market capitalisation in SGX, from what i heard the budget set aside for shoots isn't really big. Would rather spend on advertisements. In fact for models, we even source from the inside. My colleague was used (FOC!), anybody who has a pretty face or entered beauty pegeants before (there are 2 Miss universe ex-contestants) can/will be featured.

    You may wish to see how much top bridal studios in Batam/Riau Islands are earning. 2 of my relatives who are rich there paid S$8k for a local shoot (over there). Or 1 bridal studio serving 100k people, commanding prices equivalent to SG but expenses are so damn low. (eg S$200 rent for 1000 sq ft). They can afford to choose customers!

    How rich are the buggers? Ever seen 6 plasma TVs in a shophouse? But that is about to change i guess, they found JB.
    Last edited by 2100; 23rd April 2004 at 08:30 AM.

  8. #268

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2100
    You can say that again. I work for a company with the largest market capitalisation in SGX, from what i heard the budget set aside for shoots isn't really big. Would rather spend on advertisements. In fact for models, we even source from the inside. My colleague was used (FOC!), anybody who has a pretty face or entered beauty pegeants before (there are 2 Miss universe ex-contestants) can/will be featured.

    You may wish to see how much top bridal studios in Batam/Riau Islands are earning. 2 of my relatives who are rich there paid S$8k for a local shoot (over there). Or 1 bridal studio serving 100k people, commanding prices equivalent to SG but expenses are so damn low. (eg S$200 rent for 1000 sq ft). They can afford to choose customers!

    How rich are the buggers? Ever seen 6 plasma TVs in a shophouse? But that is about to change i guess, they found JB.

    Then i guess u have not been expose to much or real commercial photography..cos all that budgets, models fr agency contracted from france & US, etc...is still happening all the time...Interior architecture shoot ..as well.. 2 shots a day..tungstun with almost 20 fresnel big & small..etc...

  9. #269
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    The pros can be the photographer.....the rest can be the cameramen

  10. #270

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    Quote Originally Posted by AnonymousPro



    Then i guess u have not been expose to much or real commercial photography..cos all that budgets, models fr agency contracted from france & US, etc...is still happening all the time...Interior architecture shoot ..as well.. 2 shots a day..tungstun with almost 20 fresnel big & small..etc...
    Nope, not much exposure here as i am not a pro anyway, but you can also call it my company ngeow. I am just sharing that a big company may not have a big budget too. If the pros can find one, then good for them. Nowadays I think most are happy just to be able to get some bonus at the end of the year.

  11. #271

    Default Cheap photographer

    HI all,

    REad thread.

    I guess majority members here are more into wanting to know and learn photography and the appreciation, like in my case.

    I think the rest of the member are just pros and a small number of wannabe who think they know enough to do commercial shoots.

    To be frank I am more into digital cameras (start back in 1994 with the Kodak DS20). When digital technology advanced to a stage that DSLR is comparable to analog camera, if I am going to invest in the money, might as well learn about photography technique. Slowly appreciation of good photography starts. Of course nowhere near the pros, and do not dare to comment on any pic.

    Hope that the small number of "cheapo" photographers will not coz the real pro to move out of this forum.

    Thanks

  12. #272

    Default hmm... not going to read all the posts...

    hehe... so my apologies if these points are repeated...

    I've been lurking around this forum for awhile now (like I do with many others) and normally wouldn't post much (cause it's really addictive!)... anyhow, I, too, have noticed that there are a wide-range of photographers out here... from pro to beginners like myself. There seemed to be a large group of semi-pros/juz damm good photography hobbyists helping out too.

    Well, I started in photography as a hobby abd recently some fren asked me to cover their wedding to help them save some money. My standards aren't that great but as they are my good frens and are willing to cover all my material and development costs and suffer my poor quality... I agreed, thinking to myself:
    1) well, it's a good experience (DAMM STRESSFUL!), but to be put on the spot makes for good opportune to either advance to next level or bomb terribly... and I do enjoy such challenges...

    2) excuse/reason for me to improve myself as much as possible leading up to the event, something akin to preparing for an exam...

    3) in general... sounds fun... i mean... all the girls at the wedding will be looking at me at least once right?

    well... I'm still kinda shy to show my stuff here (thou' someone here have seen it...hehe...), dun think I bombed it and my friends were just grateful that someone was there to take pics for them...
    definitely plenty of improvements....but I digress...

    while preparing myself for the event, I looked around... surfed the web and poked my nose at those exhibitors to get more tips on wedding photography... and looked at frens' wedding album and stuff... and realised there's a wide range of skillsets out there... from those truly mindblowing ones to those hmm.... and there are people paying good money for the latter... and I tot... "why not?" and studied the market further...

    A weekend job (that has no conflict of interest with the day job), something to supplement the (can-be-bloody-expensive) hobby, plenty of friends getting married at this time, good opportunities to exercise one's skills and a good validation of one's capability....

    Photography requires plenty of skills and only CLUES of one's skills can be seen in a portfolio. There's a big group out there meeting both sides of the market... half-past-six photographers (with a bit of arrogance, I say they are at best not better than I am) and clients who don't know better and can't afford too much too (well, my frens aside, they've had enough of my bitching on my skills)

    There are pros out there making a living and charging the rates befitting their skills (I hope!) and if they are worthy, they'll survive. Then there's the half-past-sixers... I say... why bother about them? They are cheap photographers... they may be good and probably have not realised they deserve higher rates... by natural selections... those who are good will eventually charge a higher rate (as their portfolios grow more extensive, and as they improve)... if they don't, will they wouldn't be earning much to last longer anyway or in truth... they aren't that great in the first place... economics of the marketplace will move him/her....

    so to cut the long story short... photography assignments is not a perfect market in that private information (abt a photographer's skillsets) is not readily available nor easily measurable. The lower end of the market (cheap and can make do photos at cheap/zero rates will always be there) and serves as a good entry point for ppl to the market to establish themselves...

    I wouldn't be too worried about clubsnap being a place to source for cheap photographers (insofar as it does not reflect all the photographer's skillsets but plenty of average photographers around). Instead, it is beneficial to all to let this place become a marketplace to source for photographers... anyone who wishes to enter this market for a living can try their hand at it... if they are really good.. they would not stay cheap. Most people's portfolios will be here for all to judge anyway. More open information available will definitely help both sides of the market.

    And the cheapos organisations looking to exploit photographers here... well, you pay monkey, you get peanuts... occassionally you'll get the above-average fella waiting and wanting to break into the market... but if done right, they wouldn't remain cheap the next time round...

  13. #273

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    Get Photographic Society of Singapore (or form a new "Wedding Photographers' Association") to begin accrediting Wedding Photographers. Accredited members must abide by certain "codes of conduct" and must have a minimum level of experience. The society can lay down a certain charging guideline too. This will help raise the profile of wedding photographers in Singapore.

    Wedding is a once in a lifetime event...I believe most couples will not want to risk getting a newbie photographer and ruin the opportunity to capture the important moment.

    My 2 cents.

  14. #274
    Senior Member glennyong's Avatar
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    YES, yes. Yes Sure. absolutely, Yes and yes and more more and more YES YES !!!

  15. #275
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    I'm not very sure abt u guyz, but den for a newbie noob like me, I dun mind getting paid peanuts juz to increase my skill level, experience, exposure and social circle, in hope that I'll break out of the noob shell to join in the ameuter or semi-pro photography circle.

    That's my 2 cents. Dun flame me.

  16. #276
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    well, for me, clubsnap is a place for a newbie like me to learn from pros like you guys... questions are answered and lessons are learnt... a great community of pple who dun mind sharing their experiences
    as for going pro, maybe a professional photographer for my future kids lah, definitely not good enuff to make money

  17. #277
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    maybe the pro dun even bother to drop into CS, they have so much bz and shooting liao.....


  18. #278
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    Do you see any problem using freeware software if it meets your needs?

  19. #279

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    right.. sometimes people want to give "free" service to get exposure, or to gain experience in an area of photography. Whether it takes away business from other photographers or not is irrelevant.

    In fact, photographers should work together in a community. For example, if a client comes to a good photographer but only have $x to spend, and it's not enough for the photographer, he could recommend a another fellow photographer that can accept that rate. It's up to the client to experience the quality difference, and the ease of working with a cheaper, less experience photographer than a more professional one. Eventually, you get what you pay for.

  20. #280

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    wah this thread still alive. It's common sense right? Some of the 'pros' here charge less than a thousand for a day's work... Would it be valid for the 'angmoh' photographer to blame us for charging such low prices? It's a free market. People who want monkeys pay peanuts. Others with higher budget can go and get the 'pros'. It's not our business.

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