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Thread: integrity?

  1. #61
    Senior Member Cheesecake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HelmetBox
    O O O R D oh.......

    OT:

    Hmmm....... I thought they only taught us how to siam and chao keng?
    yeah,
    jus recalling the 'rolling good times' in the SAF.

    those 'were the days' man...
    You'll Never Walk Alone! - i have the best job in the world!

  2. #62
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    Default hmm....

    aiyah....at the end of the day Singaporeans are very practical.
    So what we have is willing buyer, willing seller lor.

    What i cannot stand is to have buyers or sellers telling you, i will get back to you (yes or no answer) but they didn't even have the courtesy to do that in the end...total time wasters!!!

  3. #63
    Moderator ed9119's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Ho
    Hello Guys,
    I did exactly that, forget the 5 days assignment and do only the wedding.

    ....TARNISHING YOUR NAME DON'T REQUIRE CHIEF JUSTICE TO DO IT. Words spread, angry words that may be distorted, maybe totally untrue.
    I'm with you 100% on this issue of the importance of having honor and integrity Andy.....

    At the end of the day.......it takes all sorts to make the world because people will have different value systems and beliefs.

    ...different actions and reactions reflect different environments in which different people are brought up. That's why got so many lawyers in the world.

    ed
    Last edited by ed9119; 15th November 2003 at 11:48 PM.

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Ho
    So, if by saying that, you are telling all of us in CS that when we decided to sell something to you at the agreed price but have not meet up with you, we can always sell it to the next higher bidder, considering you are desperate for it? Am I right to say that? Or can we call you to say that there is a higher bidder and we urge you to jack up the price a little? If that is possible, then are we not stupid enough not to always call the buyer and say there is a higher bidder and urge him/her to increase the buying price a little?

    No offense but I want you to put yourself in the buyer's shoes before making any comments. I feel that Singaporeans as a whole are selfish and lacks integrity. Don't get me wrong but I am a Singaporean myself.

    Andy Ho
    As a buyer, you are not obliged to buy something if the price goes above how much you are willing to fork out. In any case, what right do you have as a potential buyer to an item you have yet to pay for? Similarly, as a seller, since the ownership of the item is yours legally to begin with, there is simply nothng to stop you from who you decide to sell to eventually, even if it means selling to the lower bidder after the higher bidder has pissed you off.

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Ho
    Hello Guys,

    I think we are missing a point here. As originally stated by Helmetbox the deal for bid is closed at that price and you agreed to sell it at the RP. Then another offer came in. To me, it doesn't matter whether there is a legal document or not as you have not even the chance to meet each other so how do you sign an agreement? For those of you who think you are smart enough to talk about law and the likes I would urge you to use some common sense. If by not signing an agreement means i can change my mind anytime, then many married couples would have strangled me if they have the chance to. Below is just a scenario that I encountered as a corporate photographer.

    I am a full time corporate photographer and usually a shoot will last for between 3 days to 2 weeks. My charge rate to client is at $1000 to $1600 per day. But during my free time I would do some wedding and event shoot. A couple came up to me for request to take their wedding photos as they like my style very much. I agreed on the price of $800 for that one day wedding. 5 days before the wedding a design firm called up and expect me to do a 5 days shoot at S$1600 per day and it clashes with the wedding assignment that I am taking, and I can't postpone the 5 days shoot also. What would most of you do?

    1) Ask someone else to cover your wedding shoot even though the couple said they like your style and chose you for that?

    2) Totally abandon the couple as it does not make sense to loose an S$8000 deal as compared to the couple's S$800?

    3) Try to postpone the 5 days assignment even though you can't?

    4) Or, forget the assignment and do what you promised the couple as based on integrity?

    I did exactly that, forget the 5 days assignment and do only the wedding. Why? If anyone of you is married, you know how difficult it is to source for photographers if you know none. If I play the couple out I will leave them high and dry, people will be pissed and start tarnishing my name for it. By doing that, I explained to the agency and they understood why I could not do their 5 days assignment. At least they know I have integrity and honour my words and will come back for future jobs. I made these known to the couple and now they are giving me a lot of referrals for jobs.

    You guys can argue till the cows come home about lawyers and law. Unless you fight it out in court, TARNISHING YOUR NAME DON'T REQUIRE CHIEF JUSTICE TO DO IT. Words spread, angry words that may be distorted, maybe totally untrue. What are you going to do about it? Use your brains.
    Andy Ho
    But would you not require the couple to pay you a donwpayment in advance, as a form of non refundable guarantee in case they back out, together with a contractual agreement in written form with the conditions stipulated for bot parties? As far as I can remember, the market practice for this signifies that as a photographer, you have accepted the job, since money has changed hands, and a contract is signed. Of course, if you do neither, it is simple case of bad business practice.
    Last edited by Parchiao; 15th November 2003 at 04:26 AM.

  6. #66
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    I would have done what Andy did, and in Helmet's scenario, sell to the one I agreed on first.

    My Judge can see every transaction that I make.

  7. #67
    Member Andy Ho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parchiao
    But would you not require the couple to pay you a donwpayment in advance, as a form of non refundable guarantee in case they back out, together with a contractual agreement in written form with the conditions stipulated for bot parties? As far as I can remember, the market practice for this signifies that as a photographer, you have accepted the job, since money has changed hands, and a contract is signed. Of course, if you do neither, it is simple case of bad business practice.
    Wedding photography is not a staple diet to me as I am a corporate and commercial photographer and I don't see the need to practice your so called business practice. If the couple agrees and reconfirmed, I take it as that. Maybe you have not been able to deal confidently or convince the couple enough but in my 10 years of doing wedding photography I have not been played out by a single couple. Not even once. Period.

    Andy Ho

  8. #68

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    I've personally had 1 bad experience with regards to buying something in this forum.

    I sms-ed this person that I would meet his/her RP, and that he/she agreed. We had even agreed to deal at the next SEED. But the next day, he/she just SMSed me that the item is sold.

    This left a very bitter aftertaste in my mouth, and well, all that I can say is that this person is not a newbie in CS. Or rather, one of the liao jiaos in here. I will not say who the person is, as I find no point in doing so.

    Although I personally knew that this item was going at a steal, and I immediately offered his/her RP, but is it even judgementally right to go back on your word, even though the right to sell lies in the owner itself?

    I'm not sure if he/she did his/her homework by checking out the resale value of that item, but hey, he/she should have gotten a rough gauge of the resale value of the item before posting the ad online, and not just anyhow whack a price tag on that item, wait till people deal with him/her, and then just back out at the last min without even apologizing (I think, can't remember).

    One lesson learnt is that I have learnt to grow numb with regards to these incidents. It's not worth it to get your blood boiling.
    Last edited by SNAG; 15th November 2003 at 04:51 PM.

  9. #69

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    Well, that is all good and dandy. Sure, your word is good, and you have the benefit of the doubt from me on that. But you have not mentioned if you have taken any money from them as a deposit. I am very sure that most couples would not want to loose their deposit by not reverting back to you when the day arrives, although I have heard of couples who back out at the last moment because they have a change of heart. Also, when you have accepted the money, is it not widely accepted by most if not all local wedding photographers that you are obliged to show up on that day, and if you are sick, have a replacement on standby for you? So what is your busines practice? Are you saying that you do not sign on the dotted line in your course of work? I am sincerely interested to know.

    Off topic. BTW, I am not a professional photographer, but I have been a customer on a few seperate occassions for different reasons. Of all the types of photographers, the ones that I dislike most are those that are too cocky for their own good. This applies to the real popular ones. So what if they are good, or if they have integrity? If we are not cocky, let's leave it to be that way.

  10. #70
    Member Andy Ho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parchiao
    Well, that is all good and dandy. Sure, your word is good, and you have the benefit of the doubt from me on that. But you have not mentioned if you have taken any money from them as a deposit. I am very sure that most couples would not want to loose their deposit by not reverting back to you when the day arrives, although I have heard of couples who back out at the last moment because they have a change of heart. Also, when you have accepted the money, is it not widely accepted by most if not all local wedding photographers that you are obliged to show up on that day, and if you are sick, have a replacement on standby for you? So what is your busines practice? Are you saying that you do not sign on the dotted line in your course of work? I am sincerely interested to know.

    Off topic. BTW, I am not a professional photographer, but I have been a customer on a few seperate occassions for different reasons. Of all the types of photographers, the ones that I dislike most are those that are too cocky for their own good. This applies to the real popular ones. So what if they are good, or if they have integrity? If we are not cocky, let's leave it to be that way.
    Guess I just hurt your ego didn't I? I am sorry about that if I did. If you think that I am cocky which you did not directly mention (but why did you bother to even write about cocky photographers?) then so be it. Many who knows me personally I leave it to them to judge. I don't feel obligated to answer to your questions regarding advance payment as I think the answer I gave you earlier is enough unless you have a problems understanding. Let me tell you one thing Parchiao, I am sick of conversation with you and let's call it quit as I don't have the time to entertain any inconclusive discussion with you.

    Andy Ho

  11. #71

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    Urrr.......

    Cool it people!

    This is purely a discussion and there's no point getting all personal ok?

    lets all

    Cool it cool it.

    Anyway I find everyone's reply interesting.

  12. #72

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    Nah, I don't believe that any ego has been hurt, after all, we are just chatting as anonymous parties on the internet.

    Back to the first message, as I have said, it is okay to back out of a deal. This is under different circumstances, as opposed to what you have mentioned, where you said that you never stood up a customer for better money. I just pointed out that you may not be able to do that in the first place because of the possibility that you may have accepted a downpayment. This is totally different from verbally agreeing to sell something to someone, where nothing has changed hands. Also, there is a huge difference in being professional, and merely buying and selling that is not related at all to making a living. In the latter, if you change your mind after making a promise, so be it as it does not affect your livelihood as much as it would if it was related to an actual paying customer. Do you now see why I ask about how you conduct your business practice? But of course, if you do not wish to discuss about it, why bring it up in the first place?

    I have a different perception of integrity, that it should not be something that we should define so rigidly, and then classify others accordingly when they change their minds or opinions, without having made a concrete agreement. The bigger right here is that the seller owns the item, and it is the seller's right to exercise what he or she wishes with his/her property.

    P.S. I should point out to you that you were the one who initiated a conversation with me. See post #17 in the same thread. I actually thought that I was responding to you than it being the other way round.

  13. #73

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    Yesterday I missed out a good deal because I was sleeping and read the post late.

    This guy was letting go of a tripod at an unbelievably low price. By the time I messaged him, he told me it has been reserved. I asked him whether its still up for bid as I don't mind bidding higher if its still open. His reply was that he already made an agreement with someone. I respected that.

    Even though I felt like I missed a good deal , still, for the seller! He cared for his buyer

  14. #74
    Member Andy Ho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parchiao
    Nah, I don't believe that any ego has been hurt, after all, we are just chatting as anonymous parties on the internet.

    Back to the first message, as I have said, it is okay to back out of a deal. This is under different circumstances, as opposed to what you have mentioned, where you said that you never stood up a customer for better money. I just pointed out that you may not be able to do that in the first place because of the possibility that you may have accepted a downpayment. This is totally different from verbally agreeing to sell something to someone, where nothing has changed hands. Also, there is a huge difference in being professional, and merely buying and selling that is not related at all to making a living. In the latter, if you change your mind after making a promise, so be it as it does not affect your livelihood as much as it would if it was related to an actual paying customer. Do you now see why I ask about how you conduct your business practice? But of course, if you do not wish to discuss about it, why bring it up in the first place?

    I have a different perception of integrity, that it should not be something that we should define so rigidly, and then classify others accordingly when they change their minds or opinions, without having made a concrete agreement. The bigger right here is that the seller owns the item, and it is the seller's right to exercise what he or she wishes with his/her property.

    P.S. I should point out to you that you were the one who initiated a conversation with me. See post #17 in the same thread. I actually thought that I was responding to you than it being the other way round.
    Hello pal,

    Can we just cool it? I felt that there is no end to this conversation if we were to continue arguing. The last thing we want is for the moderators to strike off this thread started by HelmetBox right? If I have in any way offended you which I guess I did, please do accept my sincere apologies. It's better to be friends than enemies right? Ok, I don't charge any deposit for minor jobs but I do explain to wedding couples that in the event that I am sick I will get a replacement but so far (touch wood) it hasn't happened. Days before your wedding assignment, always take good care of your body. On the eve, make sure you have enough sleep.

    To all fellow CSers, I sincerely apologize for making a big hoo-haa out of this thread.

    Parchiao, are we still internet friends?

    Andy Ho

  15. #75

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    Nah, please don't apologise. I have noticed that more often than not, whether it is here, in the chat room, or some other forums, and especially in newsgroups, small little issues which bear little significance or importance can be blown out of proportion so easily, and I am almost sure that it does not happen when we discuss about it in person.


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