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Thread: integrity?

  1. #41

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    [QUOTE=kiwi2]Aiyah, after so much on integrity and all that, at the end of the day, the buyer has the final say who he or she wants to sell to. I've been "duped" once also. Ready to meet buyer, but was told he found someone offering higher price. I'm not angry with him, just a bit disappointed perhaps, but I don't blame him. [QUOTE]


    Wah .... me confused already ..... a buyer found someone that offer higher price so he buy from that seller????? Wow ..... nowadays buyers damn rich, must buy from the most expensive seller

  2. #42
    vince123123
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    Hmm, maybe your lawyers were advising you on a particularly busy day of theirs hehehe

    Anyway, there is no requirement for a money transaction, such as a deposit. I believe you may be referring to the concept of consideration - where a contract is invalid unless both sides furnish consideration, that may be the "deposit" that you are thinking about, but there is still consideration even though no deposit has been paid upfront, whether $1 or otherwise.

    In any event, many transactions or contracts are made every day without deposits being paid. Simply put, contracts stating "A will sell B goods X and B will pay A $Y, dated XYZ date", does not have any deposit element involved. Yet neither party can back out of the agreed contract. Therefore, the deposit is strictly unncessary.

    Deposits (or what i think you are referring to as "Options") are typically used in a situation where BOTH buyer and seller agree that there is no agreement, but that the seller will HOLD the item until the buyer makes up his mind. In consideration of holding the item for X days and potentially missing out on other deals, the buyer pays the seller $1 or whatever deposit. It is clear at the start that no agreement for sale was reached and the deposit is only meant to agree to hold the item. In that case, the buyer can agree not to buy at the end of X days. The seller however bound to keep the item up to X days and is free to sell at the end. However, I dont think that this is relevant in the hypothetical proposed above, and is seriously side tracked :P

    In summary, the concept that "there is no transaction until a deposit is paid" is in my opinion, doubtful.

    Hope it helps to clarify things.




    Quote Originally Posted by Astin
    vince123, if there is no money transaction, then legally speaking it is still an offer to buy and sell, not yet a contractual agreement, each party can back out. At the moment the buyer pays a deposit (even $1) and the seller accepts the deposit, then there is a transaction and both the buyer and seller enter into a contractual agreement.

    At least that was what I understand from my lawyers.....

  3. #43
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    Ahhh vince123, you are correct, they always use the word "consideration". (That proved that I am not a lawyer.)

    So, in HelmetBox example, is that a "consideration" or a "options"?

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by blurblock
    Wah .... me confused already ..... a buyer found someone that offer higher price so he buy from that seller????? Wow ..... nowadays buyers damn rich, must buy from the most expensive seller
    Typo lah...A buyer buys and a seller sells.

  5. #45
    vince123123
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    Well as i stated earlier, I think that its already an "agreed contract", done-ed deal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Astin
    Ahhh vince123, you are correct, they always use the word "consideration". (That proved that I am not a lawyer.)

    So, in HelmetBox example, is that a "consideration" or a "options"?

  6. #46

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    Hello you must also see the othersides of the picture. How about buyer who respond and plug you or does not commit to the condition of meeting you.
    There's plenty of this MF here who chase you for viewing ??
    1. But gave thousands reason of not closing the deals or meet you??
    2. When they met you, be prepared they will bargain until their balls drop without committing the sales.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by airforce1
    Hello you must also see the othersides of the picture. How about buyer who respond and plug you or does not commit to the condition of meeting you.
    There's plenty of this MF here who chase you for viewing ??
    1. But gave thousands reason of not closing the deals or meet you??
    2. When they met you, be prepared they will bargain until their balls drop without committing the sales.

    Definitely applied to all, both sides of the coin.

  8. #48
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    I think there are 3 groups of buyers/sellers here in CS:

    1)First come first serve basis seller. You can't meet to deal and another can match rp + meetup, too bad. Some buyer aslo prefer this method.

    2)First to meet RP, seller AGREE to hold and ignore further deals.If buyer backs out, post another WTS post again. Some buyer prefer this as more piece of mind?

    3) Seller agreed to buyer RP and say will hold the item for buyer. But when buyer2 with higher pricel come along, decide to sell to the latter. Some buyers don't MIND too, as they too will backout when they find another CHEAPER deal.

    Most of the time, we deal with whatever method/people comfortable to us.

  9. #49
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    I was once in a situation where I have already agreed on the offer given to me by a buyer. We were all set to meet the following week. So I put all other offers on hold and waited. The following week came, I didn't hear from him & PMed him to ask him which day would be convenient. His reply was "found someone who can sell cheaper so not in a hurry now".

    Can't say I blame him. Neither am I questioning his integrity. What pissed me off was that he didn't have the guts to tell me and left me waiting until I PMed him to ask.

    Now that is plain inconsiderate and rude.

  10. #50
    vince123123
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    Yup thats true.

    but u know, I think what he was thinking is to hold u as long as he can until he can finalise the other deal, and THEN tell u he dont want the thing anymore....what to do?

    I think the best method is first come first serve. those who can meet in time will get it. but if its the seller who can't meet fast, then the buyer should get the first right.


    Quote Originally Posted by lavenderlilz
    I was once in a situation where I have already agreed on the offer given to me by a buyer. We were all set to meet the following week. So I put all other offers on hold and waited. The following week came, I didn't hear from him & PMed him to ask him which day would be convenient. His reply was "found someone who can sell cheaper so not in a hurry now".

    Can't say I blame him. Neither am I questioning his integrity. What pissed me off was that he didn't have the guts to tell me and left me waiting until I PMed him to ask.

    Now that is plain inconsiderate and rude.

  11. #51
    Member Andy Ho's Avatar
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    Hello Guys,

    I think we are missing a point here. As originally stated by Helmetbox the deal for bid is closed at that price and you agreed to sell it at the RP. Then another offer came in. To me, it doesn't matter whether there is a legal document or not as you have not even the chance to meet each other so how do you sign an agreement? For those of you who think you are smart enough to talk about law and the likes I would urge you to use some common sense. If by not signing an agreement means i can change my mind anytime, then many married couples would have strangled me if they have the chance to. Below is just a scenario that I encountered as a corporate photographer.

    I am a full time corporate photographer and usually a shoot will last for between 3 days to 2 weeks. My charge rate to client is at $1000 to $1600 per day. But during my free time I would do some wedding and event shoot. A couple came up to me for request to take their wedding photos as they like my style very much. I agreed on the price of $800 for that one day wedding. 5 days before the wedding a design firm called up and expect me to do a 5 days shoot at S$1600 per day and it clashes with the wedding assignment that I am taking, and I can't postpone the 5 days shoot also. What would most of you do?

    1) Ask someone else to cover your wedding shoot even though the couple said they like your style and chose you for that?

    2) Totally abandon the couple as it does not make sense to loose an S$8000 deal as compared to the couple's S$800?

    3) Try to postpone the 5 days assignment even though you can't?

    4) Or, forget the assignment and do what you promised the couple as based on integrity?

    I did exactly that, forget the 5 days assignment and do only the wedding. Why? If anyone of you is married, you know how difficult it is to source for photographers if you know none. If I play the couple out I will leave them high and dry, people will be pissed and start tarnishing my name for it. By doing that, I explained to the agency and they understood why I could not do their 5 days assignment. At least they know I have integrity and honour my words and will come back for future jobs. I made these known to the couple and now they are giving me a lot of referrals for jobs.

    You guys can argue till the cows come home about lawyers and law. Unless you fight it out in court, TARNISHING YOUR NAME DON'T REQUIRE CHIEF JUSTICE TO DO IT. Words spread, angry words that may be distorted, maybe totally untrue. What are you going to do about it? Use your brains.
    Andy Ho

  12. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Ho
    Hello Guys,

    I think we are missing a point here. As originally stated by Helmetbox the deal for bid is closed at that price and you agreed to sell it at the RP. Then another offer came in. To me, it doesn't matter whether there is a legal document or not as you have not even the chance to meet each other so how do you sign an agreement? For those of you who think you are smart enough to talk about law and the likes I would urge you to use some common sense. If by not signing an agreement means i can change my mind anytime, then many married couples would have strangled me if they have the chance to. Below is just a scenario that I encountered as a corporate photographer.

    I am a full time corporate photographer and usually a shoot will last for between 3 days to 2 weeks. My charge rate to client is at $1000 to $1600 per day. But during my free time I would do some wedding and event shoot. A couple came up to me for request to take their wedding photos as they like my style very much. I agreed on the price of $800 for that one day wedding. 5 days before the wedding a design firm called up and expect me to do a 5 days shoot at S$1600 per day and it clashes with the wedding assignment that I am taking, and I can't postpone the 5 days shoot also. What would most of you do?

    1) Ask someone else to cover your wedding shoot even though the couple said they like your style and chose you for that?

    2) Totally abandon the couple as it does not make sense to loose an S$8000 deal as compared to the couple's S$800?

    3) Try to postpone the 5 days assignment even though you can't?

    4) Or, forget the assignment and do what you promised the couple as based on integrity?

    I did exactly that, forget the 5 days assignment and do only the wedding. Why? If anyone of you is married, you know how difficult it is to source for photographers if you know none. If I play the couple out I will leave them high and dry, people will be pissed and start tarnishing my name for it. By doing that, I explained to the agency and they understood why I could not do their 5 days assignment. At least they know I have integrity and honour my words and will come back for future jobs. I made these known to the couple and now they are giving me a lot of referrals for jobs.

    You guys can argue till the cows come home about lawyers and law. Unless you fight it out in court, TARNISHING YOUR NAME DON'T REQUIRE CHIEF JUSTICE TO DO IT. Words spread, angry words that may be distorted, maybe totally untrue. What are you going to do about it? Use your brains.
    Andy Ho
    *bows*

    So next time I get married can look for you?

  13. #53

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    Fwah!

    this is starting to look like the Matrix (Read: Complicated) Too many replies at a time, donnoe who to reply to

    Its interesting how the plot develops

    Anyway, I don't think there's any right or wrong, its just this 'untold' rule that we're suppose to follow as buyers and sellers but then there are always the black sheeps and the bad egg who try to twist the 'rule'.

    So which is more important? Integrity or Cash? I think only you yourself can vouch for it.
    Last edited by HelmetBox; 14th November 2003 at 02:56 PM.

  14. #54
    Member Andy Ho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HelmetBox
    *bows*

    So next time I get married can look for you?
    Sure!! Why not?

    Andy Ho

  15. #55
    vince123123
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    Although I did discuss some views on the law, I sincerely hope that you are not referring to me when making derogatory comments on those discussing the law. Not that I think its me, cos I for one said that no written agreement needs to be signed to be effective, that the deal sealed should not be broken, that not signing a writtten agreement doesn't mean that its ineffective

    in any event, if you agree to something, honour it. even if u dont get sued, word does get around...



    nevertheless, although I do agree with your point of view and the substance of your post, i think that such a strong response is not that necessary rite?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Ho
    Hello Guys,

    I think we are missing a point here. As originally stated by Helmetbox the deal for bid is closed at that price and you agreed to sell it at the RP. Then another offer came in. To me, it doesn't matter whether there is a legal document or not as you have not even the chance to meet each other so how do you sign an agreement? For those of you who think you are smart enough to talk about law and the likes I would urge you to use some common sense. If by not signing an agreement means i can change my mind anytime, then many married couples would have strangled me if they have the chance to. Below is just a scenario that I encountered as a corporate photographer.

    I am a full time corporate photographer and usually a shoot will last for between 3 days to 2 weeks. My charge rate to client is at $1000 to $1600 per day. But during my free time I would do some wedding and event shoot. A couple came up to me for request to take their wedding photos as they like my style very much. I agreed on the price of $800 for that one day wedding. 5 days before the wedding a design firm called up and expect me to do a 5 days shoot at S$1600 per day and it clashes with the wedding assignment that I am taking, and I can't postpone the 5 days shoot also. What would most of you do?

    1) Ask someone else to cover your wedding shoot even though the couple said they like your style and chose you for that?

    2) Totally abandon the couple as it does not make sense to loose an S$8000 deal as compared to the couple's S$800?

    3) Try to postpone the 5 days assignment even though you can't?

    4) Or, forget the assignment and do what you promised the couple as based on integrity?

    I did exactly that, forget the 5 days assignment and do only the wedding. Why? If anyone of you is married, you know how difficult it is to source for photographers if you know none. If I play the couple out I will leave them high and dry, people will be pissed and start tarnishing my name for it. By doing that, I explained to the agency and they understood why I could not do their 5 days assignment. At least they know I have integrity and honour my words and will come back for future jobs. I made these known to the couple and now they are giving me a lot of referrals for jobs.

    You guys can argue till the cows come home about lawyers and law. Unless you fight it out in court, TARNISHING YOUR NAME DON'T REQUIRE CHIEF JUSTICE TO DO IT. Words spread, angry words that may be distorted, maybe totally untrue. What are you going to do about it? Use your brains.
    Andy Ho

  16. #56
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    IMHO: If one gives His / Her Word. He / She should have the Guts to keep it. If one break it than it shows that He / She is greedy and is not trust-worthy. PERIOD.

    All the justifications are useless and they are only to hide ones Guilty consciousness.

    It is true not only in such transactions involving few hundred $$$ But also in all the day-to-day endovers

  17. #57

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    hi...
    its all boil down how much is your integrity worth.
    lets say i agreed to sell it at $ 100 to the first person .then,
    another person wanted to buy from me at $300 ( unlikely though).
    From my prospective , i definitely sell it to the 2nd person but
    will compensate $30 to $50 to the first person...( win win situation)
    if the 2nd person offer me $150, then i will sell it to the first buyer.

  18. #58
    Senior Member Cheesecake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Ho
    Hello Guys,

    I think we are missing a point here. As originally stated by Helmetbox the deal for bid is closed at that price and you agreed to sell it at the RP. Then another offer came in. To me, it doesn't matter whether there is a legal document or not as you have not even the chance to meet each other so how do you sign an agreement? For those of you who think you are smart enough to talk about law and the likes I would urge you to use some common sense. If by not signing an agreement means i can change my mind anytime, then many married couples would have strangled me if they have the chance to. Below is just a scenario that I encountered as a corporate photographer.

    I am a full time corporate photographer and usually a shoot will last for between 3 days to 2 weeks. My charge rate to client is at $1000 to $1600 per day. But during my free time I would do some wedding and event shoot. A couple came up to me for request to take their wedding photos as they like my style very much. I agreed on the price of $800 for that one day wedding. 5 days before the wedding a design firm called up and expect me to do a 5 days shoot at S$1600 per day and it clashes with the wedding assignment that I am taking, and I can't postpone the 5 days shoot also. What would most of you do?

    1) Ask someone else to cover your wedding shoot even though the couple said they like your style and chose you for that?

    2) Totally abandon the couple as it does not make sense to loose an S$8000 deal as compared to the couple's S$800?

    3) Try to postpone the 5 days assignment even though you can't?

    4) Or, forget the assignment and do what you promised the couple as based on integrity?

    I did exactly that, forget the 5 days assignment and do only the wedding. Why? If anyone of you is married, you know how difficult it is to source for photographers if you know none. If I play the couple out I will leave them high and dry, people will be pissed and start tarnishing my name for it. By doing that, I explained to the agency and they understood why I could not do their 5 days assignment. At least they know I have integrity and honour my words and will come back for future jobs. I made these known to the couple and now they are giving me a lot of referrals for jobs.

    You guys can argue till the cows come home about lawyers and law. Unless you fight it out in court, TARNISHING YOUR NAME DON'T REQUIRE CHIEF JUSTICE TO DO IT. Words spread, angry words that may be distorted, maybe totally untrue. What are you going to do about it? Use your brains.
    Andy Ho
    abit late with this reply, but hey, i like that.
    by the way... actual day wedding photography is so stressful and tiring...
    i think S$800 is abit too low for my liking.. heh heh heh

    end of all, word of honour.
    u're only as good as ur words are.

    rgds,
    cheesy
    You'll Never Walk Alone! - i have the best job in the world!

  19. #59
    Senior Member Cheesecake's Avatar
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    O.T

    i remember the dear SAF always talk about INTEGRITY...
    haha
    sorry, can't help it. reminds me of the days in green.

    rgds,
    cheesy
    You'll Never Walk Alone! - i have the best job in the world!

  20. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesecake
    O.T

    i remember the dear SAF always talk about INTEGRITY...
    haha
    sorry, can't help it. reminds me of the days in green.

    rgds,
    cheesy
    O O O R D oh.......

    OT:

    Hmmm....... I thought they only taught us how to siam and chao keng?

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