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Thread: integrity?

  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by HelmetBox
    I change my mind, now I'm going to buy things from you

    heheheheeeeeeeeee

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by AReality
    Sometimes, not all, buyers are also selfish and lack integrity...
    I sold some stuffs on net before(non-photography related.)
    Fixed the price...
    Went down met him,
    finally settled for $100 less!!!
    from $1000 become $900
    10% discount...
    he tried so hard to bargain...
    In the end, still decided to sell as I do not need the stuff anyway, & it was not a hot item...

    So it's not always correct to blame the seller... Buyers too, sometimes are
    maybe its a regional (Asean) thingy, we are told like when you go to Thai night market always slashed quoted price by half, so we are probably carrying this mentality to everything we do, even though we have already agreed to the price but still want to try our luck to get a better deal - not a very good behaviour but maybe because of our environment we become like that.

    Maybe that's why sometimes sales people or for that matter people in the service industry prefer the ang mo - some of those country don't entertain bargaining so these ang mo don't have the habit of bargaining or trying to squeeze the last cent away from you.

    LIke in your case, you also give in, so maybe I may learn from here that I will be stupid if I don't bargain, 1 last try, seller may be easy meat- again not a good behavior but what to do people here are like that.
    Last edited by pcwe68; 14th November 2003 at 01:29 AM.

  3. #23
    Member Andy Ho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AReality
    Sometimes, not all, buyers are also selfish and lack integrity...
    I sold some stuffs on net before(non-photography related.)
    Fixed the price...
    Went down met him,
    finally settled for $100 less!!!
    from $1000 become $900
    10% discount...
    he tried so hard to bargain...
    In the end, still decided to sell as I do not need the stuff anyway, & it was not a hot item...

    So it's not always correct to blame the seller... Buyers too, sometimes are
    In this case, the buyer is not wrong. If you are the buyer and have not seen the stuff, how could you know if the item is worth what it is? Whatever the agreed amount between you and the buyer is very much dependent on what your description is to the buyer and he have to take your word for it. Let's be frank, most seller tend to paint a nice picture of the item they intend to sell, maybe under quote the faults (I am not referring to you), so what guarantee has the buyer except your words?

    If you meet up with the buyer and is not in urgent need to sell off the item, and the price is not the agreed price, then by all means excercise your rights to withhold the items till the next willing buyer.

    Andy Ho

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcwe68
    maybe its a regional (Asean) thingy, we are told like when you go to Thai night market always slashed quoted price by half, so we are probably carrying this mentality to everything we do, even though we have already agreed to the price but still want to try our luck to get a better deal - not a very good behaviour but maybe because of our environment we become like that.

    Maybe that's why sometimes sales people or for that matter people in the service industry prefer the ang mo - some of those country don't entertain bargaining so these ang mo don't have the habit of bargaining or trying to squeeze the last cent away from you.

    LIke in your case, you also give in, so maybe I may learn from here that I will be stupid if I don't bargain, 1 last try, seller may be easy meat- again not a good behavior but what to do people here are like that.
    .......

    OT OT: How can you use thai market as an example? You're a tourist there wat aiyoh, of course they jack the price up high high. And this is only true for some markets and you appear too tourist.

    When I was attached there for a year, I went night markets with my thai friends, they get the 'right' prices. It would be insane to slash it into half then

    So must change mentality

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by AReality
    Sometimes, not all, buyers are also selfish and lack integrity...
    I sold some stuffs on net before(non-photography related.)
    Fixed the price...
    Went down met him,
    finally settled for $100 less!!!
    from $1000 become $900
    10% discount...
    he tried so hard to bargain...
    In the end, still decided to sell as I do not need the stuff anyway, & it was not a hot item...

    So it's not always correct to blame the seller... Buyers too, sometimes are
    Yup, I kenna exactly the same situation too.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Ho
    In this case, the buyer is not wrong. If you are the buyer and have not seen the stuff, how could you know if the item is worth what it is? Whatever the agreed amount between you and the buyer is very much dependent on what your description is to the buyer and he have to take your word for it. Let's be frank, most seller tend to paint a nice picture of the item they intend to sell, maybe under quote the faults (I am not referring to you), so what guarantee has the buyer except your words?

    If you meet up with the buyer and is not in urgent need to sell off the item, and the price is not the agreed price, then by all means excercise your rights to withhold the items till the next willing buyer.
    I believe he is refering a case where there are no dispute about the condition of the item. The buyer just want to bargain without any grounds on the condition on the item.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcwe68
    Maybe that's why sometimes sales people or for that matter people in the service industry prefer the ang mo - some of those country don't entertain bargaining so these ang mo don't have the habit of bargaining or trying to squeeze the last cent away from you.
    I have seen Ang Mo bargain more aggresively that locals. Don't underestimate them......

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by HelmetBox
    .......

    OT OT: How can you use thai market as an example? You're a tourist there wat aiyoh, of course they jack the price up high high. And this is only true for some markets and you appear too tourist.

    When I was attached there for a year, I went night markets with my thai friends, they get the 'right' prices. It would be insane to slash it into half then

    So must change mentality
    Its similar mentality here, you go to buy things in shops here, you ask for like 10-20% discount, shopowner agrees to discount most of the time also mah. So unless we follow those country that don't entertain any bargaining otherwise can never change mentality. Don't want to be known as a sucker

    Anyway, sorry I have deviated, because even in Thai, after you have agreed to a slashed down price, you would have paid up and go, you probably won't do a last try to lower the price during the short time you are giving the money to the seller, right?

    So for this discussion, if there is already an agreement to sell at a particular price, there shouldn't be any backing out of the deal.

    I feel the lowering of price due to unsatisfactory condition of goods is a totally different issue altogether, as I say i have deviated from the discussion.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by frisky
    I have seen Ang Mo bargain more aggresively that locals. Don't underestimate them......
    Of course, I have seen it myself too, more ruthless than us, almost showing no human respect for the seller like wanting the seller to beg them to buy like that. Probably they were told the same things about the bargaining, so don't want to be a sucker.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by frisky
    I believe he is refering a case where there are no dispute about the condition of the item. The buyer just want to bargain without any grounds on the condition on the item.
    Hi Frisky,

    In a case like this, we always have the right not to sell the items. A $100 difference is justifiable for you to waste your time and bus fare or petrol to meet him and not sell anything.

    Andy Ho

  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcwe68
    Its similar mentality here, you go to buy things in shops here, you ask for like 10-20% discount, shopowner agrees to discount most of the time also mah. So unless we follow those country that don't entertain any bargaining otherwise can never change mentality. Don't want to be known as a sucker

    Anyway, sorry I have deviated, because even in Thai, after you have agreed to a slashed down price, you would have paid up and go, you probably won't do a last try to lower the price during the short time you are giving the money to the seller, right?

    So for this discussion, if there is already an agreement to sell at a particular price, there shouldn't be any backing out of the deal.

    I feel the lowering of price due to unsatisfactory condition of goods is a totally different issue altogether, as I say i have deviated from the discussion.
    Of course of course, cause everyone wants a good deal and since shops know that, they naturally jack up the price 10-20% for the consumers to bargain so that the consumers will be happy that they did and the shop will also not lose money. The vicious cycle. heheheeeee

  12. #32
    vince123123
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    Its all about evidence. If you can prove the agreement exists, i reckon that it does not matter whether it is in the form of private message, verbal agreement, email etc. - an agreement is still an agreement.

    of course enforcement of the agreement is another matter altogether...

    Quote Originally Posted by pcwe68
    Maybe we need a lawyer (anyone out there) to explain things like verbal agreement, and worst if the agreement is in the form of private message etc (black & white, although in electronic form) has Singapore set laws on email agreement thingy yet?

  13. #33
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    I am not a lawyer but I deal with lawyers frequently.
    In the example of HelmetBox, the buyer made an offer to buy, and the seller agreed the offer. But buyer wanted to wait for another day, hence there is a condition to the offer. I think legally speaking this is a conditional offer, no binding to either the buyer or the seller. If either the buyer or the seller changes his/her mind, there is nothing wrong legally.

    So HelmetBox, if you are the buyer, you find out the seller changes his mind and you question his integrity.

    Now switch your role, if you are the seller, the buyer finds out a cheaper deal elsewhere and change his mind, will you question his integrity?

  14. #34
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    I doubt that there is a legal concept such as "conditional offer". Perhaps conditional acceptance, but not conditional offer.

    The hypothetical can be analysed in a number of ways:

    1. The buyer makes the offer to buy but states that he can only deal later on, and the seller accepts.
    2. The seller makes the offer to sell (and assuming that dealing must be immediate) and the buyer accepts but states that he can only deal later on.

    For 1, there is already a sealed deal, as the seller has accepted the buyer on all his terms.

    For 2, there is no sealing of deal yet, as the buyer doesn't really "accept" in the truest sense of the word, but rather he rejects the original offer and instead proposes a counteroffer, which the seller may accept or reject. Assuming the seller accepts, then its still a sealed deal.

    Regardless, it is technically a sealed deal, and if either the buyer or seller changes his mind, it may amount to a breach of contract. Of course the same issues of evidence and enforcement come into play.

    Quote Originally Posted by Astin
    I am not a lawyer but I deal with lawyers frequently.
    In the example of HelmetBox, the buyer made an offer to buy, and the seller agreed the offer. But buyer wanted to wait for another day, hence there is a condition to the offer. I think legally speaking this is a conditional offer, no binding to either the buyer or the seller. If either the buyer or the seller changes his/her mind, there is nothing wrong legally.

    So HelmetBox, if you are the buyer, you find out the seller changes his mind and you question his integrity.

    Now switch your role, if you are the seller, the buyer finds out a cheaper deal elsewhere and change his mind, will you question his integrity?

  15. #35

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    I don't know about all, but I had this case,

    There was a seller which I agreed to get his lens at his RP.

    Then he AGREED to sell it to me. However, 1 days before the deal, he wrote a PM to me telling me he thinks he should up is RP as he thinks he might had undervalue his lens, and was asking me to up me offer, apparently someone has give him a better deal, or so he said. I refused and tell him my bid is final, it is his RP and if someone offer higher then his RP and he has no qualms in breaking his promise, he can sell to him.

    Logically, even if someone meet your RP, it does not mean he has to sell to you unless he has agreed b4. However, if other people offer more then his RP, he can opt to sell to him. As a Reserve Price is a Reserve Price, he can opt not to sell if it does not meet his Reserve Price, but if someone better his reserve price he can sell to the highest bidder. However, I am not happy with the fact he agreed to sell to me a his RP then wanted me to up my offer as he "find" a better buyer.

    A few days later he wrote back to me again offering his lens for price lower then his RP, I said "Sorry, I can't really buy things from people with little or no integerity"

  16. #36

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    Aiyah, after so much on integrity and all that, at the end of the day, the buyer has the final say who he or she wants to sell to. I've been "duped" once also. Ready to meet buyer, but was told he found someone offering higher price. I'm not angry with him, just a bit disappointed perhaps, but I don't blame him.

    In life, you can reason and make yourself sound "goody" with all the "integrity" or "honor my words" talk but where business and $$ is concerned, there are no fixed rules. I haven't seen a single rich and successful person on earth who doesn't think $ as an important priority when doing business. As long as they don't cheat, they still have their integrity. Maybe they are good at "pian jiak" and using words to justify their sales but you can't fault them.

  17. #37
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    i once bought a lens on CS where the buyer simply stated he would sell it on a first-come-first-serve basis, at a fixed price. i think that is a good way to deal. The seller does not need to 'reserve' the item, thus risking that the buyer rejects it on inspection. The buyer has to make the effort to see the item ASAP, or even travel across the island to make the deal, and he cannot make the seller wait at his convenience. Nobody's fur gets ruffled, bcoz the first-come-first-serve premise was stated up front, and there is no integrity issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blurblock
    A few days later he wrote back to me again offering his lens for price lower then his RP, I said "Sorry, I can't really buy things from people with little or no integerity"
    Good to hear that you stand your ground, so they will learn not to break their agreement.



    True that a lot of time its really a private matter between seller and buyer but all be warned that there are vocal members here, so if anyone deal unfairly, your name could be put up and in future you may have difficulty buying and selling. I believe a lot of time the price different is around $50-$100, so why put your reputation at stake for so little money. Too cheapo right, even if you use the reason that you are poor or whatever, and $50 - $100 is a lot of money, but isn't your reputation important? and for ease of future dealings as well.

    Nobody like to go to a notorious shop to buy right?

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwi2
    In life, you can reason and make yourself sound "goody" with all the "integrity" or "honor my words" talk but where business and $$ is concerned, there are no fixed rules. I haven't seen a single rich and successful person on earth who doesn't think $ as an important priority when doing business. As long as they don't cheat, they still have their integrity. Maybe they are good at "pian jiak" and using words to justify their sales but you can't fault them.
    kiwi2, I like your saying.
    I deal with hundreds of salesmen every week. (Thats my job, not my hobby.)And I know that all salesmen are very business-minded, and I can spot the loser very easily.

    vince123, if there is no money transaction, then legally speaking it is still an offer to buy and sell, not yet a contractual agreement, each party can back out. At the moment the buyer pays a deposit (even $1) and the seller accepts the deposit, then there is a transaction and both the buyer and seller enter into a contractual agreement.

    At least that was what I understand from my lawyers.....

  20. #40
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    I have definitely bought things (bag and lens) here, where the seller simply sell to me because I am the first person who meets his RP, and even if there are other better offers subsequently, they still honour the agreement they had with me, ignoring the rest.

    Upz for them.

    Should restart the previous thread on the white sheep in CS, though on a more serious note without too much OT.

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