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Thread: a more open discussion: CLEANING UP

  1. #41
    Senior Member Pablo's Avatar
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    Default Re: a more open discussion: CLEANING UP

    OK,

    (1)
    For a moment lets assume that CS has a group of members that oversee applications by members attending a photo shoot !

    (2)
    Some creep passes required info checking and gives models a hard time or posts crude images the creep has taken, on another web site.

    What can we do in both cases ? (1)+(2)

    (1)
    Members of CS that post services for model shoots register with the CS group.

    These model shoot organisers state in their posts here in CS that entry is via registering with the CS group (and is checked).

    (2)
    Any creep that passes the checking of such group and is found out as such; their details are forwarded to known sleeze sites etc. Also posted here in CS.

    What good will this do ???

    (1) By making this known it will deterr many useless photographers entering the shoot as they will feel exposed.

    It will put pressure on sleeze sites if they constsntly recieve notices of un-wanted members.

    Let's say there is a model shoot " Girls for CD covers"

    And a creep gets past the member check then asks a model to pose xxxx and then posts photo's on a sleeze site.

    Upon being found out, this member is banned from any further photo shoots via CS (no questions asked!)

    A notice is sent out to all sites of known of sleeze (this notice is also posted in FAQ of CS)
    .
    We (members) get to see that this notice has been sent out !

    I don't think that sites of sleeze will take too well to having notices sent to them and also being made public here in CS for too long.

    .................................................. .................................................. ..........

    Constant checking and action will eventually bring this problem DOWN.

    If it is only done " half hartedly " it will continue to grow and you will not stop it.

    As for sleeze sites .... many don't care .... "well not now they don't"

    If they constsntly are seen as bad in one way or another I bet they "will" start to care.

    Just my $1 worth of input.

    Cheers
    Time, is an effortless construction :)

  2. #42
    Deregistered scandal599's Avatar
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    Default Re: a more open discussion: CLEANING UP

    A very interesting read and I concur with Nightmare on this that we need to clean up in more ways than one.

    So going on the back of what was suggested by others, this is my view:

    1) As far as PP is concerned now, it is restricted to members only. That said, as long as the person is registered as such, he can go in and have unrestricted access to the pictures. Going by this logic, it does not restrict them to just sign up for an account just to try and request for a TF or try anything funny with the model.

    One way to circumvent this, is to have a certain set of rules and guidelines. As in ModelMayhem, models themselves need to submit pics of themselves before they can be included. Likewise, photographers themselves need to submit a said set of pictures for review by the mods before they can be listed. What I will suggest is that photographers here in CS also do the same as well. A serial number will be attached as per below which I will use my account with MM as an example:
    http://www.modelmayhem.com/1070982
    It may not be foolproof, but it will circumvent and mitigate issues of photographers trying any funny business. This is more so where model shoots (esp pte ones) or group shoots are concerned.

    2) Having mods as a step in may be good idea, but it seems extreme to a certain degree as the mods cannot possibly monitor and police who goes in and out and tries something funny. As said, a said set of members, seniority notwithstanding, weed out jokers may be a viable option to weed out the like of such people who hounds models to do shoots and provide special services and the like.

    3) Having to restrict the personal services offered section is extreme as the services offered do not pertain to TFs and the like. It also has other services as well. That being the case. A suggestion like a closed group forum can be viable option as following from #1 above especially where models are concerned.

    4) The idea of exposing them can be a backlash as they may well deny the issue. That said an avenue where models and photographers can come together to air the grieviances in this case can be set up for not only feedback but as welll to iron out sticky issues that may arise either before, during or after the shoot.

    There has been a lot of unpleasantaries going on of late in respect to TFCDs, models and photographers, of which I will personally admit I am guilty of as well. But that said, as a photographer and one who shoots models, my liablity and responsiblity to the model I put on myself is by my own standard. If the model is not comfortable with posting her pics on CS, I will not do so for whatever reasons she may have.

    I for one do not wish to see CS dengenerate into a place where pgers and models slam and slime one other for things said or unsaid for that matter. Nor do I want to see CS go under the scrutiny of the microscope for all the wrong reasons.

    That said, as a photographer on CS and one who takes models, I think the buck stops here and now and we as photographers should clean up our act now.

    With that, I will take the first step here with my MM account as a sort of proof. My nick as per my MM and CS and Flickr are all one and the same even on my deviant as well.

  3. #43

    Default Re: a more open discussion: CLEANING UP

    Quote Originally Posted by Tupi Guy View Post
    As with all suggestions, I think we need to expose both the perverts seeking extra services, as well as models who enjoy soliciting.
    First, if they know that they will be expose, they may think twice.
    Second, those of the same feathers can flock together and contact one another elsewhere, rather that trying their luck in PMing and harassing uninterested parties.

    After all, it is free will and if those who are harassed, they should expose them or maybe lodge a report to the police. Though one may feel it is useless, but it sends a signal that one is not to messed with.
    i agree wholly with this.

    and i am sure the members of our community also want to eradicate such scum.

  4. #44
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    Default Re: a more open discussion: CLEANING UP

    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights View Post
    I support services offered/ wanted viewable to REGISTERED MEMBER only.
    I agree with this too!!

  5. #45

    Default Re: a more open discussion: CLEANING UP

    Quote Originally Posted by tortise View Post
    on the other hand, i also agree that if i am truly an honest photographer with no hidden agenda in participation in the events or transactions on clubsnap, there is nothing to fear or hide of feel ashamed about in stating my personnal details, contacts and even photos before being certified/allowed to participate.

    Some possible concerns might be if (1) there are inconsiderate, immature troublemakers who choose to pick on silly things like "what an ugly photo you have!" or "wah uncle act cute and use such cute nicknames", or "how come this guy so old already still don't know nuts about his equipment and techniques" etc... there must be watchmen to curb such behaviour promptly. Also (2) as mentioned by others, if there is a misunderstanding between two parties during an event or transaction etc, and the photos and details are used in a public smearing action, adequate avenues for proper investigation, mediation and redress must be available. Otherwise, like many say, lots of people will really be scared off for fear of getting into trouble without even really being at fault.

    Do we rather have a small community of honest photography-loving members or a large community of a wide mix of people, good and bad? I frankly don't know, for the former might make this community too exclusive and unfriendly to newbies?
    yes, which is why i suggested just that, but if anyone can come up with more ideas, they are welcome to throw them into the mix.

    anyways, i am glad you spoke up about the lines in red.

    in any case, newbies, i hope, are genuinely interested in photography. it would be a sad day when a photography forums becomes more well known for chances to bring girls out and watch them smile at you, rather than photography in itself.

    like others have mentioned, this will not affect everyone much, since most people are good, clean, honest people who have not created any trouble, and chances are, the horny fiends are not even interested in photogrpahy in the first place.

  6. #46
    Senior Member Pablo's Avatar
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    Default Re: a more open discussion: CLEANING UP

    Quote Originally Posted by scandal599 View Post
    A very interesting read and I concur with Nightmare on this that we need to clean up in more ways than one.

    So going on the back of what was suggested by others, this is my view:

    1) As far as PP is concerned now, it is restricted to members only. That said, as long as the person is registered as such, he can go in and have unrestricted access to the pictures. Going by this logic, it does not restrict them to just sign up for an account just to try and request for a TF or try anything funny with the model.

    One way to circumvent this, is to have a certain set of rules and guidelines. As in ModelMayhem, models themselves need to submit pics of themselves before they can be included. Likewise, photographers themselves need to submit a said set of pictures for review by the mods before they can be listed. What I will suggest is that photographers here in CS also do the same as well. A serial number will be attached as per below which I will use my account with MM as an example:
    http://www.modelmayhem.com/1070982
    It may not be foolproof, but it will circumvent and mitigate issues of photographers trying any funny business. This is more so where model shoots (esp pte ones) or group shoots are concerned.

    2) Having mods as a step in may be good idea, but it seems extreme to a certain degree as the mods cannot possibly monitor and police who goes in and out and tries something funny. As said, a said set of members, seniority notwithstanding, weed out jokers may be a viable option to weed out the like of such people who hounds models to do shoots and provide special services and the like.

    3) Having to restrict the personal services offered section is extreme as the services offered do not pertain to TFs and the like. It also has other services as well. That being the case. A suggestion like a closed group forum can be viable option as following from #1 above especially where models are concerned.

    4) The idea of exposing them can be a backlash as they may well deny the issue. That said an avenue where models and photographers can come together to air the grieviances in this case can be set up for not only feedback but as welll to iron out sticky issues that may arise either before, during or after the shoot.

    There has been a lot of unpleasantaries going on of late in respect to TFCDs, models and photographers, of which I will personally admit I am guilty of as well. But that said, as a photographer and one who shoots models, my liablity and responsiblity to the model I put on myself is by my own standard. If the model is not comfortable with posting her pics on CS, I will not do so for whatever reasons she may have.

    I for one do not wish to see CS dengenerate into a place where pgers and models slam and slime one other for things said or unsaid for that matter. Nor do I want to see CS go under the scrutiny of the microscope for all the wrong reasons.

    That said, as a photographer on CS and one who takes models, I think the buck stops here and now and we as photographers should clean up our act now.

    With that, I will take the first step here with my MM account as a sort of proof. My nick as per my MM and CS and Flickr are all one and the same even on my deviant as well.
    Hi scandal 559,

    How much would you like to see the problem controlled ?

    I am not for an instant suggesting that you don't (trust me on this).

    But my meaning for asking is that there many that see the problem and voice it, but how many are willing to make a commitment to stop it

    My suggestion is to remove it from CS "propper" and to leave it with a group of members to deal with.

    This group of members "names or nicks we will not know" are gathered by CS Admin/Mods as a group from members that are willing to tackle the problem as a group.

    This group of members "or Hit Team " go about setting up and monitoring the whole affair.

    Their results are daily posted on CS.

    BUT, as I mentioned above, solving the problem and making the photo shoot life easier is going to take commitment, not posting.

    scandal599, please don't take this as posted at you, as I agree with much of what you say.

    Cheers
    Time, is an effortless construction :)

  7. #47
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    Default Re: a more open discussion: CLEANING UP

    Quote Originally Posted by Pablo View Post
    Hi scandal 559,

    How much would you like to see the problem controlled ?

    I am not for an instant suggesting that you don't (trust me on this).

    But my meaning for asking is that there many that see the problem and voice it, but how many are willing to make a commitment to stop it

    My suggestion is to remove it from CS "propper" and to leave it with a group of members to deal with.

    This group of members "names or nicks we will not know" are gathered by CS Admin/Mods as a group from members that are willing to tackle the problem as a group.

    This group of members "or Hit Team " go about setting up and monitoring the whole affair.

    Their results are daily posted on CS.

    BUT, as I mentioned above, solving the problem and making the photo shoot life easier is going to take commitment, not posting.

    scandal599, please don't take this as posted at you, as I agree with much of what you say.

    Cheers
    we cannot stop the problem. but we can contain it. sometimes that may be the best way to circumvent rather than stopping and control. that would be draconian. commitment yes, we need people to be committed to the effort. however that said, a lot of us have our own commitments too outside CS. So rather than stop we contain and have members cooperate and help one another. A hit team can be formed as a "supra" body and they can step in anytime. but onus remains on members. we can do a spin off. that is why I am suggesting a something like MM. that way, we can contain to a certain extent.

  8. #48
    Senior Member Pablo's Avatar
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    Default Re: a more open discussion: CLEANING UP

    Sorry for going on (and I have to sleep ).

    How neat would it be to recieve a card in the mail ... "Honoured Photographer".

    It has a CS logo and everything

    How did I recieve this card ????

    My address is what I filled out on my disclaimer at a photo shoot.

    I recieved it because I have been to 4 photo shoots.

    Right now I would be showing my friends my card !!!
    Time, is an effortless construction :)

  9. #49
    Senior Member Pablo's Avatar
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    Default Re: a more open discussion: CLEANING UP

    Quote Originally Posted by scandal599 View Post
    we cannot stop the problem. but we can contain it. sometimes that may be the best way to circumvent rather than stopping and control. that would be draconian. commitment yes, we need people to be committed to the effort. however that said, a lot of us have our own commitments too outside CS. So rather than stop we contain and have members cooperate and help one another. A hit team can be formed as a "supra" body and they can step in anytime. but onus remains on members. we can do a spin off. that is why I am suggesting a something like MM. that way, we can contain to a certain extent.
    Thanks scandal599 for not taking my post as anything directed to you

    Cheers !!!
    Time, is an effortless construction :)

  10. #50

    Default Re: a more open discussion: CLEANING UP

    scandal, thanks for posting,

    i will add on and comment about what you say, but a bit tired now, will do so tmr.

  11. #51

    Default Re: a more open discussion: CLEANING UP

    Quote Originally Posted by scandal599 View Post

    One way to circumvent this, is to have a certain set of rules and guidelines. As in ModelMayhem, models themselves need to submit pics of themselves before they can be included. Likewise, photographers themselves need to submit a said set of pictures for review by the mods before they can be listed. What I will suggest is that photographers here in CS also do the same as well. A serial number will be attached as per below which I will use my account with MM as an example:
    http://www.modelmayhem.com/1070982
    It may not be foolproof, but it will circumvent and mitigate issues of photographers trying any funny business. This is more so where model shoots (esp pte ones) or group shoots are concerned.
    there is a simple way around this

    i am sure there is a mod only forums, the people registering can submit their photos, and then maybe those photos could be kept in a database along with details, even thread style, on the moderator forums.

    and it can be done easily, even if there is not.

  12. #52
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    Default Re: a more open discussion: CLEANING UP

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    there is a simple way around this

    i am sure there is a mod only forums, the people registering can submit their photos, and then maybe those photos could be kept in a database along with details, even thread style, on the moderator forums.

    and it can be done easily, even if there is not.

    that may be the case with the mods. but the thing is the cleaning should start at our level. one reason why i advocate something like what we see on MM is because, every model and photographer has an allocated tag number which cannot be falsified in under any circumstances so that being said, it may be easy to trace back the identity of the model and photogroaher in question.

    like said, we now have this problem:
    http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showthread.php?t=513468

    i think more has to be done and done in a straight forward and clear cut manner.

    even if the mods keeps the thread details and photos in a database, the ability of the mods to advocate any action on a broader perspective may be somewhat bound.

    I am not so sure at this point what exactly are the mods powers in relation to to thread details and photo submission. So it will be helpful if a mod can povide feedback at this juncture.

  13. #53
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    Default Re: a more open discussion: CLEANING UP

    Heheh, seems like there's a bit of tasting of one's own bitter medicine going on here *grin grin nudge nudge*

    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights View Post
    it is time to 清理门户!



  14. #54
    Senior Member Pablo's Avatar
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    Default Re: a more open discussion: CLEANING UP

    Quote Originally Posted by scandal599 View Post
    that may be the case with the mods. but the thing is the cleaning should start at our level. one reason why i advocate something like what we see on MM is because, every model and photographer has an allocated tag number which cannot be falsified in under any circumstances so that being said, it may be easy to trace back the identity of the model and photogroaher in question.

    like said, we now have this problem:
    http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showthread.php?t=513468

    i think more has to be done and done in a straight forward and clear cut manner.

    even if the mods keeps the thread details and photos in a database, the ability of the mods to advocate any action on a broader perspective may be somewhat bound.

    I am not so sure at this point what exactly are the mods powers in relation to to thread details and photo submission. So it will be helpful if a mod can povide feedback at this juncture.

    I agree with a straight forward and clear cut manner, through educating via posts in CS.

    Some, maybe, many are not aware of how things can go wrong or how to simply react.

    Or even how to be a photographer in a photo shoot. There are many things that can be learnt to make it all be a photo shoot that you are happy to have been part of.

    Stickies are not one of the suggestions I would use.

    I also agree (whole heartedly) that it would be helpfull if a MOD would like to share some views, but also Admin (this is their baby .. "CS").

    I know that I have mentioned before .... and yes before that, that I think a group should be organized from members only.

    My reason for saying this is many fold.

    One. It removes direct legal onus on CS, (you may come up a reason otherwise, but so can I come up with a reason otherwise to yours)

    Two. I don't think for one minute that Mods and Admin don't care about the issues, but I think that those that have posted, do care more so and it may be closer to their bread and butter.

    Three. I believe that the Mods and Admin have plenty to do already and giving them this to sort out will hinder all other running of CS.

    Group/Mob/Hit Squad/Band of? what ever you would care to term these dedicated people, work with each other outside CS but they use their own (Hidden in CS forum) to go about what they do.

    They can PM other members that can offer things like legal assistance etc to enter their forum and join in a discussion.

    Ok, this is long winded and not well thought out, but I hope it has some merrit that can be worked upon.

    I am not suggesting a "Do this and clean it up", it is more a way to get minds working on ways to head that way.

    Cheers and thanks for reading
    Time, is an effortless construction :)

  15. #55

    Default Re: a more open discussion: CLEANING UP

    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights View Post
    FYI, only registered members can view our Portraits and Poses forum.

    and so far nobody complaint about this, and I think many members also support about this.
    IIRC the next few days... there is a significant jump in member's registration.

    Till now, not sure how many "inactive" ghost users is in CS.
    Last edited by CYRN; 9th May 2009 at 12:54 AM.
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  16. #56
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    Default Re: a more open discussion: CLEANING UP

    Quote Originally Posted by CYRN View Post
    IIRC the next few days... there is a significant jump in member's registration.

    Till now, not sure how many "inactive" ghost users is in CS.
    There will always be ghosts in CS. The question is what type of ghosts we are talking about here is anybody's guess.

    I think a high level or degree is needed to circumvent issues like this. Registering as a member is very simple. Anyone can do that. But to curb and to ensure that "special services" request are, eradicated at least on CS, a higher level of containment might be appropriate.

  17. #57

    Default Re: a more open discussion: CLEANING UP

    Quote Originally Posted by CYRN View Post
    IIRC the next few days... there is a significant jump in member's registration.

    Till now, not sure how many "inactive" ghost users is in CS.
    even with ghost users, there is some form of "identity" that can be established and proven

    even if say, wireless@sg, there are wireless@sg accounts that needed to be logged into..

  18. #58

    Default Re: a more open discussion: CLEANING UP

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    even with ghost users, there is some form of "identity" that can be established and proven

    even if say, wireless@sg, there are wireless@sg accounts that needed to be logged into..
    The fundemental issue is that while information is avaiable on CS, most of these contactts were made offline and there might not be any link back to cs account.

    It actually is the onus on the service provider to verify the identity and to reject untracable clients. ie. Deals are only closed via pm or the thread post. With ip logged any case that escalated to court can be traced. Or if the case of trouble makers, ip can be identified similar to tracing of multiple accounts.
    Last edited by CYRN; 9th May 2009 at 05:54 PM.
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  19. #59
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    Default Re: a more open discussion: CLEANING UP

    I just stumbled onto this thread and I am glad to read that there are other people who also see the need for some degree of cleaning up in order to safeguard CS as a place for serious photographers. I tried to look at the same concern but from another angle which is of ensuring some degree of "legal" protection for CS in the event some "bad" things occur. I feel CS should be "seen to doing more" within its capability to reduce any hanky panky. My suggestions in a PM which did not see the light of day were:

    "Three suggestions are:
    More stringent requirements placed on organisers as they have the best vantage point of any such activities. The licensing idea should be aggressively implemented. Models advertising their commercial services must prove they are not underage. And if they are, parental consent form should be produced and filed in case it is needed. Raising the awareness level within CS with frequent reminders that you are concern and such activities will be dealt with severely. Certainly not by ignoring it."

    More food for thought.

  20. #60

    Default Re: a more open discussion: CLEANING UP

    Quote Originally Posted by Daoyin View Post

    "Three suggestions are:
    More stringent requirements placed on organisers as they have the best vantage point of any such activities. The licensing idea should be aggressively implemented. Models advertising their commercial services must prove they are not underage. And if they are, parental consent form should be produced and filed in case it is needed. Raising the awareness level within CS with frequent reminders that you are concern and such activities will be dealt with severely. Certainly not by ignoring it."

    More food for thought.
    to be honest, my concern is not underage models, and to be honest, while i do have my own views on underage models participating in photography, i.e. that they should in fact be accompanied by a guardian, BOTH for the photographers' sake and the model's sake.....

    this is not really the issue here.

    anyways, i am very amused, there are many people in kopitiam, but the amount of people lending their support is.. meagre to say the least.

    as to what conclusion i am drawing, well, i need not say, i guess.

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