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Thread: New Models and their Arrogance.

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    Default New Models and their Arrogance.

    Hey guys have you encountered some new so called "models" that claim to have little or NO experience but yet choose not to do tfcds and some even choose NOT to shoot with not so pro photogs??

    I recently encountered a so called "model" who when i msg her told me that she has alot of offers and some she is doing with what she calls "HIGHLY SKILLED" photogs... she even said that she has alot of offers and that she is "considering" who to work with..

    After showing her my portfolio she said she was willing to consider working with me although she thought my portfolio was just ok only with problems with my lighting and angles. No doubt my portfolio isn't the best but coming from someone who is considered new to this field and acting so arrogant it's kinda irritating..

    A few days later i msg her again and she totally forgot who i am and asked me for my portfolio again!! I just think she was unprofessional and didn't even bother to take note of who she would like to work with and think that just becoz she has found "highly skilled" photogs to shoot for her tht makes her a supermodel liow???

    This isn't the first one i have encountered... alot of young girls 16 - 20 onwards are now trying to enter the modelling industry and some of them are really arrogant after getting like msgs from photogs to shoot them... come on let's face it, everytime a new "model" posts her service in the services provided section alot of photogs will msg her to do shoots coz let's face it, those of us who can't afford it will try to get as many tfcds shoots as possible. Isn't TFCD shoots a win win situation for both the models and the photogs??? (I'm refering to newbies who are both trying to build their portfolio) so if these new models choose to reject tfcds and would rather get paid then shouldn't we as photogs also charge them for our services? Aren't we service providers too??? if these brand new models wanna charge us to shoot them then i think we should not give them the pics then. We are paying them to pose for us so that we can build our portfolio but since they charge us then why should we give them the pics for their portfolio??? I SAY WE CHARGE THEM FOR THEIR PICS!!

    What do u guys think?

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    Default Re: New Models and their Arrogance.

    Why bother about shooting models? There are so many other things to shoot - rest my case
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    Default Re: New Models and their Arrogance.

    Well... If she is really that popular, then, I guess it can't be help... Shoot other models lor.

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    Default Re: New Models and their Arrogance.

    Quote Originally Posted by skywalker28 View Post
    Why bother about shooting models? There are so many other things to shoot - rest my case
    Ok.... to those who DO shoot models please give yr opinions.

  5. #5

    Default Re: New Models and their Arrogance.

    If i were you i wouldn't complain.
    Seriously you should try acting as a model and posting your tfcd request in the "personal services offered" section. it seems that recession is hitting the photographers pretty bad now and once they see a "free" model, the model will possibly receive many requests.

    its not surprising she can't remember your name, imagine you receive dozens of requests from different models, obviously you might tend to forget some of their names right? as you don't even know them personally and have not worked with them before.

    regarding the part whereby she commented haughtily about your work, i think as a photographer and model, one must surely encounter such incidents. i mean, even amateur photographers are giving "constructive comments" about others' work, and hence why can't amateur models do the same? isn't that really stereotypical of you to put it that way? so long her comments are constructive, i think you should just accept it. if they are not constructive, simply brush them aside. we can choose what to absorb in you know, if she gave irrelavant comments you shouldn't brood over them too much.

    as an amateur model, i do like to comment on photographers' work as well. is that wrong as well? i don't see what's wrong with telling the photographers how they can "improve", and they can choose to accept my feedback or just simply reject it. if you put it that way, i reckon amateur photographers don't have the rights to comment about the models' mistakes too as well?

    An example of a humble PG whom PMed me to ask me to further break down my explanation about his photo.

    thanks cheryl for the elaboration.


    imho, one dont have to be a pro photog to critic a photo, since photos r meant to be viewed by the masses.

    dk


    and if there's choices laid out in front of you, you'll tend to pick the best one. that's a fact and this is reality.
    but from the way you put it, she seemed to have chosen the wrong choice of words. is she young? if so i wouldn't even care as you're an adult and being angry over an ignorant child's words seems to degrade yourself even more.

    anyway you must understand that although a model might be inexperienced, she can't be ALWAYS accepting TFCDs unless she meet some photographers whom she find outstanding. by the time she is "experienced", many photographers would have shoot her and possibly won't want to work with her again.

    and regarding the part about not giving them the pics, it is actually the photographer's choice whether he/she wants to pass the model the pictures. if the photographer's not gonna make any loss by passing the model the pics, i don't see why he should not pass her the pics. by building a friendly relationship with the model is a good thing as well, just in case of future collaborations.

    oh just my opinions because i feel that you're just looking things from the photographers' point of view (or possibly your point of view)

    hope no offence was taken cheers!
    Last edited by cheryl852; 1st May 2009 at 04:35 PM.

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    Default Re: New Models and their Arrogance.

    In the first place, PGs who paid for the services of the model are not obligated to give the models any pictures unless it is explicitly agreed beforehand as part of the conditions/payments of service. PGs who willing give paid model the pictures.. it's their freedom ya..

    TFCDs on the other hand, is different. PGs are obligated to provide models the pictures, and it should be of the better ones that the PG themselves would want to put on their portfolios.



    Quote Originally Posted by JT-Fied View Post
    Ok.... to those who DO shoot models please give yr opinions.
    Last edited by Limsgp; 1st May 2009 at 04:26 PM.

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    Default Re: New Models and their Arrogance.

    This is called a spoilt market.

    Who else but photogs themselves to spoil it?

    Agree with what cheryl posted.
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    Default Re: New Models and their Arrogance.

    if you are not getting any luck in landing any models who are looking at doing tfcd, maybe u can try exploring your circle of friends for help. i am sure u can persuade some of them to be your model while you practice your people photography skills. it will be easier to work with people who u already know as well. there is a lesser chance of the model feeling uneasy with you and u can concentrate more on landing keepers for your shoot.

    the model u spoke to maybe inexperienced, young or just plain bitchy but do take it in your stride because people like that are everywhere so don't let others put you down. continue honing your skills and soon you will have models knocking on your door to do a shoot with you. provided u don't give up first.

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    Default Re: New Models and their Arrogance.

    about the "spoilt market" parts.. there's some article for your reading..

    Model was expecting a TFCD but got much more than what she asked for..

    It's natural that the market would evolves to what TS encountered.. isn't it?


    http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showthread.php?t=479949



    Quote Originally Posted by CYRN View Post
    This is called a spoilt market.

    Who else but photogs themselves to spoil it?

    Agree with what cheryl posted.

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    Default Re: New Models and their Arrogance.

    Well firstly, believe it or not i WAS a talent for a local international magazine years back so i do know what it is like. I was working for free for the mag when i first started out and after a couple of times that they decided to keep using me did i then only decide to negotiate a fee with them.

    Yes i agree that even though some of them are new they should not be taken for a ride and keep doing free shoots but u dun start to run even b4 u can walk right? Take for example one of the notorious models a few months back who kept "flying aeroplanes" to photogs... she mentioned that she DOES NOT do tfcds and that she is new to this given the fact that she is quite good looking but hey no experience means no experience right? Would a potential employer pay someone a 5 figure salary for someone who does not have any experience??? i doubt so...

    As for photogs choosing to give the photos or not, let's face it, even by building friendly relations, does that mean if u like working with a certain photog in the future u will be willing to do his shoots for free?? no right?? so?? Like Donald Trump always says "It's nothing personal, it's just business"

    Alot of young models are students and also alot of new photogs here are also students hence alot of them cannot afford the rates that some models ask for. Some new models even dare to ask for rates that are comparable to those of seasoned models in CS which i find in my opinion ridiculous! So if new models dun even wish to do tfcds first then how are these new photogs gonna build their portfolio??

    Yes i am speaking from a photogs point of view but aren't you also speaking from a model's point of view? Photogs and models are like bread and butter, we should compliment each other... so shouldn't we be helping each other out?? how is it that it seems that we photogs are getting the dirty end of the stick instead?

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    Default Re: New Models and their Arrogance.

    Quote Originally Posted by JT-Fied View Post
    Hey guys have you encountered some new so called "models" that claim to have little or NO experience but yet choose not to do tfcds and some even choose NOT to shoot with not so pro photogs??

    I recently encountered a so called "model" who when i msg her told me that she has alot of offers and some she is doing with what she calls "HIGHLY SKILLED" photogs... she even said that she has alot of offers and that she is "considering" who to work with..

    After showing her my portfolio she said she was willing to consider working with me although she thought my portfolio was just ok only with problems with my lighting and angles. No doubt my portfolio isn't the best but coming from someone who is considered new to this field and acting so arrogant it's kinda irritating..

    A few days later i msg her again and she totally forgot who i am and asked me for my portfolio again!! I just think she was unprofessional and didn't even bother to take note of who she would like to work with and think that just becoz she has found "highly skilled" photogs to shoot for her tht makes her a supermodel liow???

    This isn't the first one i have encountered... alot of young girls 16 - 20 onwards are now trying to enter the modelling industry and some of them are really arrogant after getting like msgs from photogs to shoot them... come on let's face it, everytime a new "model" posts her service in the services provided section alot of photogs will msg her to do shoots coz let's face it, those of us who can't afford it will try to get as many tfcds shoots as possible. Isn't TFCD shoots a win win situation for both the models and the photogs??? (I'm refering to newbies who are both trying to build their portfolio) so if these new models choose to reject tfcds and would rather get paid then shouldn't we as photogs also charge them for our services? Aren't we service providers too??? if these brand new models wanna charge us to shoot them then i think we should not give them the pics then. We are paying them to pose for us so that we can build our portfolio but since they charge us then why should we give them the pics for their portfolio??? I SAY WE CHARGE THEM FOR THEIR PICS!!

    What do u guys think?
    It happened to me when i was an amatuer photographer. Most models looked down on me because i was young and inexperienced. I believe not to judge a book by it's cover. But most of the time, that happens. We just have to live with it.


    All the best.


    GMAN

  12. #12

    Default Re: New Models and their Arrogance.

    Quote Originally Posted by JT-Fied View Post
    Well firstly, believe it or not i WAS a talent for a local international magazine years back so i do know what it is like. I was working for free for the mag when i first started out and after a couple of times that they decided to keep using me did i then only decide to negotiate a fee with them.

    Yes i agree that even though some of them are new they should not be taken for a ride and keep doing free shoots but u dun start to run even b4 u can walk right? Take for example one of the notorious models a few months back who kept "flying aeroplanes" to photogs... she mentioned that she DOES NOT do tfcds and that she is new to this given the fact that she is quite good looking but hey no experience means no experience right? Would a potential employer pay someone a 5 figure salary for someone who does not have any experience??? i doubt so...

    As for photogs choosing to give the photos or not, let's face it, even by building friendly relations, does that mean if u like working with a certain photog in the future u will be willing to do his shoots for free?? no right?? so?? Like Donald Trump always says "It's nothing personal, it's just business"

    Alot of young models are students and also alot of new photogs here are also students hence alot of them cannot afford the rates that some models ask for. Some new models even dare to ask for rates that are comparable to those of seasoned models in CS which i find in my opinion ridiculous! So if new models dun even wish to do tfcds first then how are these new photogs gonna build their portfolio??

    Yes i am speaking from a photogs point of view but aren't you also speaking from a model's point of view? Photogs and models are like bread and butter, we should compliment each other... so shouldn't we be helping each other out?? how is it that it seems that we photogs are getting the dirty end of the stick instead?
    yup, you may be a talent but i know of "talents" whom are not very professional at all as well; not that i'm trying to say you're not of course. (take some FHM GND models for example) you may have received regconition from the magazine but irregardless, since you're working with the model, you have to receive her regconition first before she decides to work with you.

    regarding the "flying aeroplane" model part, do note that it is the minority whom are doing that. from the start, your thread says "new models and their arrogance" which sounds really general hence i infer that you're targeting ALL the new models out there. if she's good looking, has zero experience, but refuse to work with you, what to do? it is not like complaining it in this thread will do you any good. why not start shooting people you know instead to brush up your photography skills? if you really are that unhappy with her, and want to "get back at her", my suggestion is to make her REGRET not doing a tfcd with you.

    and fyi, building a friendly relationship with models and PGs are really important. in this market, sometimes its not solely your talents that count, the circle of friends you have and the way you communicate with people is important as well. that's an undeniable fact, yet again. and regarding "does that mean if u like working with a certain photog in the future u will be willing to do his shoots for free?? no right??" you know what, there are really "stupid" models out there whom do free shoots because they like the photographers. please don't see us as money machines as we are not, we cherish ties and bonds as well. if you want to know of one such example, i liked a photographer so much i think i'm gonna do free shoots with him forever if he wants to. that's because he was a nice person, and i enjoyed working with him. i'm sure if you ask around there will be plentiful of examples around.

    and about the rates of the model, those are just models ignorant of the market. if they ask for too much, easy, just reject them! don't have to care right? like you said, they're inexperienced. you make NO loss by turning them down. and i'm sure not all new models are like that, if you look hard enough there will be bound to be models whom are willing to collaborate with you maybe you have to start looking at the right places? like what one of the CSer had suggested, you can start with your very own social circle first.

    anyway by starting this thread, you're not "complementing" the models in any forms. you looked too strongly from a photographer's point of view and i was just giving my 2cents worth of opinions. do you think that photographers always have it hard and models always have it easy? yeah sure if the models dont have to stock up their wardrobe, style their hair (in case they receive complaints about having messy/flat hair) and putting on makeup. do you know that if you're meeting a model at 9am, she possibly has to wake up before 7 to groom herself? THINK again please before commenting that photographers are always at the loss.
    Last edited by cheryl852; 1st May 2009 at 04:59 PM.

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    Default Re: New Models and their Arrogance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Limsgp View Post
    about the "spoilt market" parts.. there's some article for your reading..

    Model was expecting a TFCD but got much more than what she asked for..

    It's natural that the market would evolves to what TS encountered.. isn't it?


    http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showthread.php?t=479949
    I did read this thread months ago and i was refering to this model in my earlier post above too... she did mention that she was new, but she does not do tfcds and when i asked her rates she quoted damn high la... i was like .... ok.... nvm... this is the problem u see... how are aspiring photogs gonna build their portfolios if all NEW models choose to charge these sort of rates? And being new photogs of coz their pics wun be all that wonderful right???

    Quote Originally Posted by flipfreak View Post
    if you are not getting any luck in landing any models who are looking at doing tfcd, maybe u can try exploring your circle of friends for help. i am sure u can persuade some of them to be your model while you practice your people photography skills. it will be easier to work with people who u already know as well. there is a lesser chance of the model feeling uneasy with you and u can concentrate more on landing keepers for your shoot.

    the model u spoke to maybe inexperienced, young or just plain bitchy but do take it in your stride because people like that are everywhere so don't let others put you down. continue honing your skills and soon you will have models knocking on your door to do a shoot with you. provided u don't give up first.
    Yea flipfreak so far all my pics in my portfolio are of close frens! yes it is true that it would be easier to work with ppl u already know but that in itself is also a problem... i have had many shoots with frens postponed and cancelled last min for many various reasons... and becoz we are frens it is difficult to like make them understand that they should not play me out last min like that...

    As for giving up, nah i'll strive to be a better and one day a great photog and when that happens i'll charge all new models a flat rate of 2k and hour to do their portfolio! hahahahaha

  14. #14

    Default Re: New Models and their Arrogance.

    Umm. Totally different scenario leh. I look at that case as the person with constraints to immediately inform the affected party about inability to fufill his/her part of the agreement.

    But that is besides the point. There are exceptions in most cases and it's up to us to agree with the terms of shoot. Both models and photogs. If you encounter primadonna then move on to the next loh. Move until you find a correct match.
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    Default Re: New Models and their Arrogance.

    Right i'm too lazy to reply to a post in here coz i wanted comments from other photogs who are experiencing what i am going thru but instead now it seems to become a war between the photogs and the models... so going back n forth on that shall cease henceforth, other fellow photogs, what are your views?

  16. #16

    Default Re: New Models and their Arrogance.

    its not a war, just that i feel that the way you put it is totally bias and insensitive towards models hence i decided to drop by and give u my opinions. do understand that you're the one whom started this thread and this thread is not solely read by photographers alone.

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    Default Re: New Models and their Arrogance.

    TS, move on ba .... the word "model" is more often than not often misused and misrepresented ... it makes them feel good when they are called a 'MODEL' or you considered them one .... In reality, be accepted by the major agencies then we can start talking .. clearly, most will not make it.... there are basic aptitudes and attributes

    If you had a bad experience, write them off .... most in the industry hardly pay attention to such wannabes ... I hope this will make u feel better

    Keep shooting ... you can only get better

  18. #18

    Default Re: New Models and their Arrogance.

    sigh....just a simple case of supply and demand lah.

    if there were only a few photogs and tons of models, then u can have the luxury of telling the model that u r "considering all offers" as well.

    live with it and develop a thicker skin.
    Last edited by zaren; 1st May 2009 at 05:11 PM.

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    Default Re: New Models and their Arrogance.

    ... i was being so insensative... i'm soooooo sorry

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    Default Re: New Models and their Arrogance.

    Thanks for those encouraging words to all. Yeah I have moved on and as fate would have it, after encountering that so called "model" I actually found a better one and will be doing a shoot with her this weekend, so hopefully it works out well. Guess this thing will always be around between photogs and mollers.

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