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Thread: Cant help but wonder....

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    Default Cant help but wonder....

    Sorry I'm probably juz a noob in here but i have been browsing through the portraits pics in this section of the forum and i realised that 95% of posted pics here are pretty and sexy or cute gals. 2% of guys probably. What I was thinking was that choosing a pretty model is already half the battle won in shooting a nice pic. Won't choosing an average or below average model constitutes a greater challenge to a photographer's skill? or is it a morale issue?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Cant help but wonder....

    noob here as well, but I do see that very often, you see many favourable comments for some postings like 'nice photo, great pic',etc..

    And then realize that they're actually really mediocre shots, just that the model is pretty or poses well...
    Bokeh thick thick oso seems to gather the same gd response..
    This kind of stuff very personal, to each his/her own i guess.

    I do not agree that choosing a pretty model equates to a nice pic though.

    But of course there are few that shoots really wonderful portrait photos!
    Last edited by redmonsoon; 30th April 2009 at 03:19 PM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Cant help but wonder....

    I think that as an artist/designer/photographer, most of us tend to want to convey beauty. It's natural to pursue beauty in order to put your piece of work in good light, and obviously, beauty always attract people.

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    Member vince's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cant help but wonder....

    Quote Originally Posted by xinnamon View Post
    Sorry I'm probably juz a noob in here but i have been browsing through the portraits pics in this section of the forum and i realised that 95% of posted pics here are pretty and sexy or cute gals. 2% of guys probably. What I was thinking was that choosing a pretty model is already half the battle won in shooting a nice pic. Won't choosing an average or below average model constitutes a greater challenge to a photographer's skill? or is it a morale issue?
    Never look at my self-portrait and puke ah?!?!? kekeke

    But naturally who doesn't wanna take pictures of pretty things right? I know I'm ugly so I make myself uglier in portraits...then post here for ppl to puke on.



    http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showthread.php?t=508464 <- go see for yourself
    Last edited by vince; 30th April 2009 at 03:41 PM. Reason: added URL
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Cant help but wonder....

    Quote Originally Posted by xinnamon View Post
    Sorry I'm probably juz a noob in here but i have been browsing through the portraits pics in this section of the forum and i realised that 95% of posted pics here are pretty and sexy or cute gals. 2% of guys probably. What I was thinking was that choosing a pretty model is already half the battle won in shooting a nice pic. Won't choosing an average or below average model constitutes a greater challenge to a photographer's skill? or is it a morale issue?
    there is nothing wrong with celebrating beauty

    but there is something wrong in shooting beauty for the sake of shooting it, and producing half-past-six results... which a lot of people here do; and they will defend it by saying that they have the right to do so..

    of course they do!! it is their money, their time, and they have done nothing wrong in all aspects of the world.... but there is also no problem with anyone judging or feeling that they could put their time to better use, after all everyone judges.

    my advice is, if you want to feel more inspired, look at better portrait shooters like will03.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Cant help but wonder....

    [QUOTE=vince;5042300]Never look at my self-portrait and puke ah?!?!? kekeke

    xinnamon was already referring to u when he mentioned pretty models...

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    Default Re: Cant help but wonder....

    Quote Originally Posted by redmonsoon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by vince View Post
    Never look at my self-portrait and puke ah?!?!? kekeke
    xinnamon was already referring to u when he mentioned pretty models...
    #@x*!!! Pretty? What pretty!?!!?
    Last edited by vince; 30th April 2009 at 04:36 PM.
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    Deregistered scandal599's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cant help but wonder....

    Quote Originally Posted by xinnamon View Post
    Sorry I'm probably juz a noob in here but i have been browsing through the portraits pics in this section of the forum and i realised that 95% of posted pics here are pretty and sexy or cute gals. 2% of guys probably. What I was thinking was that choosing a pretty model is already half the battle won in shooting a nice pic. Won't choosing an average or below average model constitutes a greater challenge to a photographer's skill? or is it a morale issue?
    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    there is nothing wrong with celebrating beauty

    but there is something wrong in shooting beauty for the sake of shooting it, and producing half-past-six results... which a lot of people here do; and they will defend it by saying that they have the right to do so..

    of course they do!! it is their money, their time, and they have done nothing wrong in all aspects of the world.... but there is also no problem with anyone judging or feeling that they could put their time to better use, after all everyone judges.

    my advice is, if you want to feel more inspired, look at better portrait shooters like will03.
    What nightmare said is true. Let me take it further. As a portrait shooter myself, as this is the genre which interests me the most, taking pictures of beauty is something that I want to do. It is something that I want to capture. When I post on PP, I am open to comments that addresses my mistakes in term of composition, exposure issues, concepts and other areas that will help me to go even further.

    The thing is that portrait shooting is not an easy task. Having undergone one session with Ejun on portrait photography, there are many things that I find myself lacking in. Poses, rapport, lights, angles, features etc are all things that can make or break a photo. As mentioned before, like in all genres, regardless of it being landscapes, weddings, macro, streets and candids, there must be something there that as a shooter I want to capture. Be it moods, feelings, environment, emotions, all these come into play and it really depends on what is the image as a shooter I want to first convey and second capture.

    It is very easy to shoot for the sake of shooting. I have fallen into that trap before. In fact, a lot of shots I have taken in the past were machine gunning. My first ever portrait shoot was about 7 months ago with Ivan and have never looked back since. But as a photographer, the question is do I want to be stuck in the same old routine or do I want progression in the genre I am interested in. For now, I am off group shoots for a while as there are certain things I am working on which requires my time and attention and this will take a while.

    For a newbie, I will suggest that if you interested in portrait photography, join shoots that you are interested in. See how it is like. Yes, cost may be high on some occassions. but at least you can get some degree of satisfaction once you know your pictures turn out good. But that said, it has got to be according to your standards and what they are. I myself have thrash and trashed a lot of pictures.

    It is not wrong to capture beauty. The question lies is how you want to capture it. And this is not a morale issue. This is an issue on who am I as a portrait shooter.
    Last edited by scandal599; 30th April 2009 at 04:20 PM.

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    Default Re: Cant help but wonder....

    It's the Law of Attraction between species,shoot with passion and one will certainly achieve
    one's goal of bring out the beauty.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Cant help but wonder....

    Quote Originally Posted by vince View Post
    #@x*!!! Pretty? What pretty!?!!?
    i think he meant pretty ugly!
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    Default Re: Cant help but wonder....

    Quote Originally Posted by shiruikage View Post
    i think he meant pretty ugly!
    Oh...then that I agree
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  12. #12

    Default Re: Cant help but wonder....

    Quote Originally Posted by xinnamon View Post
    Sorry I'm probably juz a noob in here but i have been browsing through the portraits pics in this section of the forum and i realised that 95% of posted pics here are pretty and sexy or cute gals. 2% of guys probably. What I was thinking was that choosing a pretty model is already half the battle won in shooting a nice pic. Won't choosing an average or below average model constitutes a greater challenge to a photographer's skill? or is it a morale issue?
    There are captures of environmental portaits in other forums (candid, travels), many of them are not your conventional pretty models.

    I am not that one genre is better than the other, just that it depends on how strictly you define the idea of potraits or the respective forums people decide to display their pictures in.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Cant help but wonder....

    An experience photographer or someone proficient can make a mediocre models looks pretty or stunning. A so-so photographer can make a pretty model looks mediocre. Most photographer can take a pretty picture of a pretty model.

    Another point to note, is that in a organised photoshoot, usually the models are "professionals", meaning modeling is their ricebowl. These models knows how to look their best, how to pose well, how to project a favorable angle, how to put up a good facial expression etc.. so it makes the photographers job much easier to produce a "good-looking" image.

    Join a photoshoot, machine gun a few thousand pictures in full auto mode, surely there'll be 1 or 2 that is "good enough" post in CS. Somemore with the organiser assisting the shoot, positioning the model for suitable background, put up reflectors etc.. it's not that difficult.

    So it's not only choosing "average" model, just choose any of your friends and try to make pictures like those posted and you can see the "challenge"


    Quote Originally Posted by xinnamon View Post
    Sorry I'm probably juz a noob in here but i have been browsing through the portraits pics in this section of the forum and i realised that 95% of posted pics here are pretty and sexy or cute gals. 2% of guys probably. What I was thinking was that choosing a pretty model is already half the battle won in shooting a nice pic. Won't choosing an average or below average model constitutes a greater challenge to a photographer's skill? or is it a morale issue?

    Guess you're only got part of it. In some cases, the member simply knows each other in personal (or some that joined the same shoot), and they'll "support" each other with "nice" "great" etc. comments. Also, you'll find that some organiser will praise those pictures from their shoots very much. Guess you can judge and already pointed out that not all comments actually reflects the standard of the pictures, and some are quite misleading to newbies (photographer or models) on what is a "good picture". Of course there are pictures that truly is good.. Guess these members are quite famous and consistently produced stunning results.


    Quote Originally Posted by redmonsoon View Post
    noob here as well, but I do see that very often, you see many favourable comments for some postings like 'nice photo, great pic',etc..

    And then realize that they're actually really mediocre shots, just that the model is pretty or poses well...
    Bokeh thick thick oso seems to gather the same gd response..
    This kind of stuff very personal, to each his/her own i guess.

    I do not agree that choosing a pretty model equates to a nice pic though.

    But of course there are few that shoots really wonderful portrait photos!

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Cant help but wonder....

    Quote Originally Posted by Limsgp View Post
    An experience photographer or someone proficient can make a mediocre models looks pretty or stunning. A so-so photographer can make a pretty model looks mediocre. Most photographer can take a pretty picture of a pretty model.

    Another point to note, is that in a organised photoshoot, usually the models are "professionals", meaning modeling is their ricebowl. These models knows how to look their best, how to pose well, how to project a favorable angle, how to put up a good facial expression etc.. so it makes the photographers job much easier to produce a "good-looking" image.

    Join a photoshoot, machine gun a few thousand pictures in full auto mode, surely there'll be 1 or 2 that is "good enough" post in CS. Somemore with the organiser assisting the shoot, positioning the model for suitable background, put up reflectors etc.. it's not that difficult.

    So it's not only choosing "average" model, just choose any of your friends and try to make pictures like those posted and you can see the "challenge"





    Guess you're only got part of it. In some cases, the member simply knows each other in personal (or some that joined the same shoot), and they'll "support" each other with "nice" "great" etc. comments. Also, you'll find that some organiser will praise those pictures from their shoots very much. Guess you can judge and already pointed out that not all comments actually reflects the standard of the pictures, and some are quite misleading to newbies (photographer or models) on what is a "good picture". Of course there are pictures that truly is good.. Guess these members are quite famous and consistently produced stunning results.

    Concerning the first reply, it is not entirely correct. Well yes, granted that these models are "professionals", a lot are doing this as a sideline. Some are commendable as they are using this to see themselves through school. I know of a few and on is based on feedback, of which that said I am hoping to work with her going forward. Contrary to what some might think that they are doing this for the sake of buying stuff. But to say that these "professional" models know which angles to project to make themselves look good, to a certain degree, is overstating as a lot unfortunately do not know how to do so. They are just pretty.

    Few I see, unfortunately, can only make it to that criteria where they know how to pose, know which angles look the best, and can communicate well with the photographer, and I am saying this is based on what I see on group shoots. In private shoots, it is a different ball game as the photographer is the art director himself, the creative director and the photographer all in. Ultimately the case here is how much of a rapport can be built up between model and photographer is a very big question which is evident in private shoots. Sometimes it can be built up in 15 mins. Sometimes over three or four sessions. Sometimes none at all. A lot of times the photographer has to be his own harshest critique and even critiquing the model for that matter.

    A pretty model is certainly easy to take, no doubt about that. But to ascertain the fact that pretty model means 50% of the battle won is a serious flaw in logic. A pretty model, to take her picture is only 30% of the battle, the other 70% is to make the model stand out in the picture. That is the challenge. To envision, to capture and to produce an image that can wow everyone dead in their tracks...that is something that as a portrait shooter, I aspire to be.

    A lot of grp shoots will have people ending up and friends and thereby praising the pictures as good, which a lot of it is happening. While there is nothing wrong, if an honest opinion is needed, this does not stand on its own. Very often, when pictures get slammed for reasons, people will take offense. That said, most of the time we as photographersa tend to forget two fundamentals: 1) the styling of the model is our call. When the model gets slammed. we have to undertake the responsibility and not the model. 2) Following from the first point, we as photographers have to undertake the stress of the model for a lot of things. Weather, her make up, her clothes, her poses, her hair, shoes, background, if she is feeeling comfortable, etc. Coupled with our own of exposure, metering , colour balance and the like. So one can imagine the immense stress faced on a private shoot.

    But that is the beauty. And the beauty here lies not in the model alone. It also allows yourself to discover where the beauty of the model is. In a group shoot, you do not get that much chance. In a private shoot, try it once...you will see the difference.

    Look at Will03, Kongo, Flipfreak, Ejun, Deadpoet, G-Khoo, Zeckson, Gatchaman, Virgo... . Look at these few people and compare. A vast world of difference and a very great one.
    Last edited by scandal599; 1st May 2009 at 01:15 PM.

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    Default Re: Cant help but wonder....

    Even if the model is not "professional", the organiser(the better ones) more or less will play a part to help participants get a reasonable good picture, such as preparing the settings, suggestion for poses, use of reflectors(including correct deployment), provision of lighting setups etc.. all these factors will affect the picture produced, somehow, esp if the PG is not experienced. If all the above is not correct, at least "Most photographer can take a pretty picture of a pretty model" still stands no need to "pose", just look at the camera and the picture will turn out fine. There are people who just have these qualities

    As for the last part of the statement.. if what you said it true, then.. well.. case of willing seller, willing buyer, I guess. All those "qualities or soft skills" that you mentioned is the minimum requirement of someone who regard themselves as "models", isn't it? For someone who can't pose and is able to charge a fee just to stand there.. seems that it is pretty good money ya?



    Quote Originally Posted by scandal599 View Post
    Concerning the first reply, it is not entirely correct. Well yes, granted that these models are "professionals", a lot are doing this as a sideline. Some are commendable as they are using this to see themselves through school. I know of a few and on is based on feedback, of which that said I am hoping to work with her going forward. Contrary to what some might think that they are doing this for the sake of buying stuff. But to say that these "professional" models know which angles to project to make themselves look good, to a certain degree, is overstating as a lot unfortunately do not know how to do so. They are just pretty.

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    Default Re: Cant help but wonder....

    Quote Originally Posted by Limsgp View Post
    Even if the model is not "professional", the organiser(the better ones) more or less will play a part to help participants get a reasonable good picture, such as preparing the settings, suggestion for poses, use of reflectors(including correct deployment), provision of lighting setups etc.. all these factors will affect the picture produced, somehow, esp if the PG is not experienced. If all the above is not correct, at least "Most photographer can take a pretty picture of a pretty model" still stands no need to "pose", just look at the camera and the picture will turn out fine. There are people who just have these qualities

    As for the last part of the statement.. if what you said it true, then.. well.. case of willing seller, willing buyer, I guess. All those "qualities or soft skills" that you mentioned is the minimum requirement of someone who regard themselves as "models", isn't it? For someone who can't pose and is able to charge a fee just to stand there.. seems that it is pretty good money ya?

    haha...then in that case a lot of photogs will be taking passport pics

    But in all seriousness of the issue at hand. Be it shooters or organisers, there must be some level of degree or proficiency not only in photo-taking, but at the same time posing of the models and I agree that the better ones do play a part like Ivan.

    To an extent, organisers may or may not have "trained" their models to pose. Even if they do, to what level of proficiency is the the main question here. Angles, does the model have a all rounded photo face? Are there any angles that as photog I will have to avoid but still salvagable in case I take her at that angle? Are there angles that I should avoid at all cost? Poses, can she pose naturally? What are the poses that she can do? Are the poses suited for high fashion? If not, what are the modifications that can be made?

    A lot of models have the soft skills in terms of looks. That is a given. But to make her looks stand out even more, the hard skills, that is even more critical in more ways than one. So that said, agreed is a case of willing buyer, willing seller in plain economic terms. Thus it all boils down to one single argument then: how do I want to do things differently and yet at the same time, make the model stand out in a way she can be beautiful in more ways than one and wow the people dead in their tracks looking at her photo.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Cant help but wonder....

    Quote Originally Posted by scandal599 View Post

    Look at Will03, Kongo, Flipfreak, Ejun, Deadpoet, G-Khoo, Zeckson, Gatchaman, Virgo... . Look at these few people and compare. A vast world of difference and a very great one.
    there are also many singaporean photographers who do not post in clubsnap that shoot portraits/fashion well. either that or they post, but they do not bother posting in P&P... for various reasons.

    btw, i'm not going to say who, but i don't agree with all your picks

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    Default Re: Cant help but wonder....

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    there are also many singaporean photographers who do not post in clubsnap that shoot portraits/fashion well. either that or they post, but they do not bother posting in P&P... for various reasons.

    btw, i'm not going to say who, but i don't agree with all your picks
    hahaha...yeah...agreed.

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    Default Re: Cant help but wonder....

    how to post...

    i think the thread also drown in the sea of all the bikini models and xmm threads...

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    Default Re: Cant help but wonder....

    Then I need Ms Van to do TF with me.

    But okay, regardless, in PP, granted that a lot of it is based on XMM or bikini themes. But the thing is that this has been prevalant for a long time possible since who knows when. So at the end of it all, it depends on the photog's objective.

    Comments will be given. Slams will be given. But apart from that, as long as the photog strives to achieve something out of all the XMM and bikini themes, who know we might have a SI photog in the future...off hand, I can think of one at the moment.

    p/s: It is not me for the record.

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