Think i better switch back to landscapes or animals.... at least they dun charge me anything
Think i better switch back to landscapes or animals.... at least they dun charge me anything
look there is no sense in harping on the fact that the models are charging high rates. as said, willing buyer/willing seller.
read this http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showthread.php?t=509747
ultimately, the onus is the photog to make the model do the things he wants in order to get the pic. if your port is not up to scratch, get it done.
Every single model, has and will reserve the right to work with the photogs she wants to work with. That is their incentive and perogotive to do so. Models can receive TF requests everyday, sometimes more than 10. If she were to accept every photog request for TFs, then when can she stop? At which level? Till she has 100 over pics to date to classify her as a experienced model?
As photogs, we can be selective abt who want to take, why not models then? If they request to see your port and you do not have one, build it up. Join grp shoots, that is how everyone starts. If your social circle of friends is large enough to build up your port to a level that is acceptable to you, well and good. If you are not comfortable in showing your port then don't.
It takes a lot of images to build up a portfolio for the model and to establish herself as one. But it takes that just one image to "kill" her...case in point....refer to a certain Camy picture.
Ultimately, the onus is on you to make the judgement call as to whether you want to show your port. Rather than complain abt the models per se, why not join shoots to explore further? That is how a lot of the experience ones start out. Even Will03 also joins grp shoots. if you can find a model to work with on a long term basis, good. take that opportunity to push the boundaries. After that find another. I have found my mine. Take your time to find yours.
And my point was proven. I rest my case...
always the Light, .... always.
model do that, photographers do that....
ask yourself with a fair heart, how many photographers here have good standards??
you don't get the point, the point is not whether the model has standard, the point is:
can she find someone better to do the job? if you can say for sure, "yes", then there is your answer, and live with it. such is life. end of story.
Last edited by night86mare; 2nd May 2009 at 12:17 AM.
The reason why even models asking for payment ask you for portfolio (which they actually have no right to since you are paying them, not them paying you - imagine a renovation contractor asking a building developer for his portfolio); is because these models are hoping to get BOTH money AND photos from the shoot.
Just wanted to share my 2 cents worth...
I've been doing TFCD shoots off and on.. from a photographer's perspective, it's certainly a great opportunity to extend your creativity and explore different aspects in lighting etc. Likewise for the model who will get photos for portfolio etc.
Having learnt it the hard way, I realize that it is important to be selective (both photographer & model)... and both model & photographer need to be & stay committed in order to really achieve something out of the shoot
Well, there will always be cases of MIA/princesses/divas etc which cause some disruptions to your schedule.. it's annoying I totally agree.. and there's really nothing much a photog can do about it so long as the mindset of these models continue to stay that way.... so who's responsible for educating them? I do not know...
To sum it up, there's always going to be the less responsible / respectful TFCD models etc, no point grumbling and losing sleep... we can blacklist etc but the thing is, there will always be new cases popping up... sad to say, we have to deal with it.
Well, my point of view is.... it is best we be professional about our work, and always strive to improve. What people must understand is that this is a collaboration to produce good pictures.
There are models who will start getting deluded and acting like a princess and diva. I guess it is important both PGer and model to act professional. If one side starts to behave in a certain manner, no good pictures will come out of it. Only bad photographs.
This is why TFCD is held in the first place, we try to work out and improve... to get better pictures. If criticisms start flying, like when model starts commenting about the PGers work/gear/skills/etc... or when the PGer starts criticising the model's body (for example), it won't work well.
But most of all the cases I've heard so far, is the model criticising the PGer, not the other way round. It is only when the model behave terribly, that the PGer will respond in his/her own way.
When collaborating on TFCD, models can choose the PGer by evaluating his/her work. Upon agreeing to a TFCD, I feel that the model should just try to work on her poses/expression/hair and make-up/anything to improve her pics, not wasting time acting like a big baby.
Model must be aware that PGers have invested big and expensive Rolex-worth of cameras and other gear. I doubt any model would even have a low end dSLR and a kit lens. Apart from that, also, that we have to psyche and use our creative brains actively, both on the artsy side and also on the technical side (lighting/exposure/etc).
PGers also must understand, that models must keep themselves fresh, put make up on, decide on outfits (for TFCDs), be aware of the body (strong and weak points of her body)/poses/expression/angles/etc. Of course PGers are there to guide them, but there's only so much a PGer can do. Watch America's Next Top Model. We can guide but it is up to the model to deliver the poses/look.
Paid shoot, if the model has agreed to the amount, she should just be a model and comment less. It is a paid job. The PGer has the right to provide or deny her the pictures at the end of the shoot.
Bad attitude exists here because of the lack of professionalism and work attitude. In the commercial world, bad attitude cannot be tolerated (only if you're the client ). One time, and you will never be booked anymore. Maybe Mollers (model wannabes with unrealistic delusions I assume?) haven't worked in a commercial environment before, hence their bad attitude. Thing is, Mollers have this delusion that models are all the top of the food chain and they can behave however they want. Do you think clients pay so much to tolerate crap behavior? Or when the the whole team is assembled, stylists/MUA/Pger/assistants/lighting/all that gear are all there, and the model go MIA and behave like a biatch?
I suggest aspiring models to start behaving professionally if they ever wanna get anywhere in modeling. Watch more of America's Next Top Model and other model shows please.
PGers too should behave professionally, and take good pictures. Don't behave like a pervert. Sexy poses can be suggested in a polite way. If declined, this should not be forced onto the model. We must also not condone such baby-like behavior, just because it's free. We have more dignity than that.
Last edited by happyfrog; 2nd May 2009 at 09:54 AM.
I always insist on meeting the models before a shoot. At the meeting, we will decide on how to collaborate, and more importantly, if we were to collaborate. These pre-shoot meet up, happens most of the time. For me, this is time very well spent.
Of the models I had met before a shoot vs those I had not met before a shoot, I have a very unscientific finding. The percentage of those whom I have met and decide to work with, the percentage of the models who ended up as flakes are substantially lower than those I was not able to schedule a pre-shoot meeting. Interesting.
Back to the TS's original premise, we as photographers can only control our own actions and expectations.
If a model for a paid shoot, ask for my portfolio, it's a red flag. If the model is bitchy and unresponsive during the discussion phase of a shoot, wouldn't that be a glaring warning sign?
Bad attitudes do not get fixed overnight, nor do they get developed in a day. And at the end of the day, if we decided to work with a princess bitch, we deserved the bad attitudes we have to deal with.
I'm just curious as to do you guys really regard them as models??? To me, a real model would have to be signed to a modelling agency and TRAINED to be a model. She has to learn how to pose, how to groom herself, makeup, how to catwalk, how to style her hair practically everything that would make a model.
I've encountered some wannabe models who dun even know how to put on proper makeup and dun even know what vital stats are!!! Maybe my expectations are too high but when i hear model, that is what i would normally presume instead of a XMM trying to act like one just to earn some extra cash to buy the latest Guess bag.
from the model's point of view..
"i'm curious, how do you guys really regard them as photographers? to me, a real photographer would have to be working with a good studio and trained to be a photographer. he has to learn how to light, how to compose, how to post process properly, how to not make skin look like plastic wrap practically everything that would make a photogrpaher..
i've encountered some photographers who don't even know how to control lighting, who don't seem to know what they want me to pose as..... maybe my expectations are too high, but when i hear photographer, that is what i would normally presume instead of a gwc trying to act like one so he can get more pictures for his private collection and earn some extra street cred when he shows his buddies my pictures"
when you stare into the abyss
remember, the abyss stares into you...... while we all rant rant rant, let's take a look at ourselves and reflect properly........ the problem lies not with just one party, as always.
Last edited by night86mare; 2nd May 2009 at 02:44 PM.
I think lets forget about the Mollers, as how they'd forget about us.
work with someone else if that person has no chemistry wih you.
yup, mollers are blacklisted. will never shoot them again.
Agency Cat A models (fashion and editorial models), will usually NOT work or be allowed to work with the masses of hobbyists, enthusiasts and GWCs, so a photographer's 'status', 'qualification' or 'competence' is not even relevant because the assignments they do accept/do are almost always with full-time commercial studios or fashion photographers. Both the model's/agencie's reputation and earning power are at stake.
By 'Agency', I refer to the established, full-scale professional agencies who carefully scout and select potential models, offer intensive training in the essential basic 3 areas being posing, catwalk and deportment and demand professional standards of practise from the models. I call them the Big 4. There used to be 5, but I think one dropped out of the race a long time ago. Some of these agencies were founded by ex industry recognised models who know what professional modelling is about - quite a lot more substance than than just pretending to look good.
Where's there's less (reputations) at stake, it's usually the $$$ that over-shadows reputations, and with Cat B and Cs, well, the fact is they do sometimes accept side-line FL jobs with hobbyists and the like usually without the agencies' authorisation or knowledge.
Cat As may sometimes get themselves (and accept) engaged in shows for elite clients and if the price is right.
Add to the confusion, is the mushrooming of over-night modelling 'agencies' who are in reality co-ordinating companies, along with the never-ending waves of deluded school kids and young adults who passionately believe that all it takes to be a professional in the modelling arena is to use the most inappropriately OTT false eye-lashes and coloured contacts, fungussed nail-art and the most perplexing collection of mis-matched flesh-baring clothes. The fact is sex and novelty sells, whether one likes it or not, and whether it's in good or bad taste, so the players leverage on this.
Bearing the above in mind, one can understand why there's sometimes so much confusion about what constitutes a 'real model', and not.
With a few exceptions, and I may be wrong, I don't think that the waves of subjects that are actively doing business on CS are professionally trained, turned out and listed with any of the established professional agencies like the Big 4. In essence, and by fashion and commercial industry standards, it might not be possible to classify them as models.
Aside, I've met some models who are even able 'talk technicalities', and may politely offer suggestions because they are aware of things like angles, what lights and lens selection do to their looks and even how to best portray their strengths, and downplay their weaknesses.
Last edited by Dream Merchant; 2nd May 2009 at 03:43 PM.