Sowwie couldn't resist the herd instinct!
Sowwie couldn't resist the herd instinct!
What is his nick name cos there is so many 'R' here?
It's good that a Mod is stepping in and has offered Organiser an avenue.
I don't think Chngpe was censoring anything, but reminding us not to fall into a lynch mob mentality. Such an impassioned stance might do much more harm than good.
Chances are, when something like this happens, which is unfortunate, but at the same time, is something which any organiser should be prepared for, the tendency is to let passions and emotions take over.
Contaxable has made astute obesrvations, and offers a very practical, and potentially useful piece of advise: Lodge a POLICE report for the purpose of having a RECORD. which would be useful should anything untowardly happen, now, or anytime in the future.
I agree with his view that as much as many here want to see the offended 'exposed', if Organiser did that, it might serve no better purpose than to potentially push an 'unstable' (claimed) person over the edge and endanger Organiser herself as well as other girls.
I think many here are aware of my stance about 'stepping up to the plate' and naming offenders with specific regard to scammers, inconsiderate and unethical traders in the forum classifieds, but this is one instance where NOT publically naming the offender may be better, and going through the channels such as informing the moderators (so that they can pass on the info to all registered organisers), and lodging a Police report would serve both as a clear warning of how seriously we are willing to view such matters, and also as a potential preventive action. These actions in this instance, IMO, would serve better purpose.
Having said that, I see it as a good thing that photographers here want better moral or behaiourial codes as well as more stringent admission criteria at shoots (are there any to begin with?) involving any element of sex or sensuality, by the very nature of the themes, these shoots are where more things could go wrong, and harm not only the models and organiser, but the commmunity and photographers in general. In this respect, members need to help organisers with their co-operation/understanding should action need to be taken during a shoot (and not lynching either), and organisers need to step up to the plate and look past the financial bottom line when need be.
If you fall into the trap of a lynch mob, you've allowed yourself to go lower than the offender because you're supposd to be more level-headed and mature/responsible. I'm not saying don't do anything. I'm saying, do the RIGHT thing and that must be done. Believe me, it's not that I don't understand how deeply many of you may want to see action, and what happens outside is beyond anyone's control, but here, in the forums, we can still try to think level-headedly.
Sex sells, and like it or not, that's a fact as sacrosanct as death and taxes, but there's a difference between tasteful appreciation, and outright lewd abberations.
Last edited by Dream Merchant; 19th April 2009 at 02:09 PM.
I feel it is not appropriate for CS to take any administrative action (banning etc..) against the person if that person did not do any acts within the context of the forums or break any forum rules( as long as what the person does is not "illegal"). Furthermore it would not be useful or effective to prevent the person from carrying out his activities (the person can always re-reg another nick as mentioned by some members).
On the other hand, I feel that those in the know of who the person is should stand out and ID the person (real name/HP for etc..) as a "public service", to warn others, especially young/new models of such a person.
Just identify the person (The forum can do it's part by not deleting the thread etc.. ), and the industry should self-regulate and "react" against such undesirable behavior. Models would not take assignment from this "person/photographer/GWC", organisers can reject this person's request to join their shoots etc..
For an action to be effective, we can take a cue from the government in dealing with the problem of littering offenses. Fine is not effective, public shaming is. A disclosure of the ID of the person would be a strong enough deterrence against such unpleasant acts, isn't it?
If any models/organiser continued to allowed the person in their photoshoots despite knowing about him from the forum, it would be their freedom to do so....
Refer to the part in red, it will not protect the freelance models who advertise in the services offered section as they do not have access to the information which only organisers have.
If the person reg another nick, then advertise in the services wanted sections (if organiser ban him?), unknowing models may response and expose themselves to those "undesirable behaviour/acts", if the person's real name and picture is not made public.
Having stepped out for a while and coming back trying to clear my thoughts, and after reading what Dream Merchant and Lim has posted, I think it makes sense to do the following:
1) As organisers, information sharing is needed. As such, even if Melody does not expose the person online here, I think it serves in the best interest of every organiser to obtain from Melody the name and details of the person involved. While yes, competition is stiff amongst them. But as long as something like that happens in the community, something must be done.
2) As portrait photographers who may or possibly may be working with some freelance models, please inform your models as well about what happened. It places them on guard and allows them to make the informed decision. I am not sure if the said photographer in question only attends these type of shoots or he even engages models himself but we need to protect the integerity of the community and the dignity of the models.
3) Agreed that we should not lynch mob anyone here. That said, as organisers, strengthen and refine the screening process or whatever it is that you have to prevent such incidences from ocurring again. Once is bad. To avoid and mitigate situations like these going forward, a certain concerted action is needed. Further inaction may prove to be otherwise futile and we may as a community be on the short end of the stick.
4) There is no one said set of standards, ethics or moral code of conduct that each and every single photographer must or should adhere to. But the onus as said, lies on each and every photographer to do the right thing. It does not matter if you will ever see the model again. But as a photographer, as long as his/her photo is in your hands you have the control and power to make or break a model.
It would not be my or any member's place to say what is right or not since we do not create the rules and regulations here. That's the Admin and mod's call.
What we can do is help be vigilant, and voice our opinions and concerns. Yes, I am all for naming names, but in this instance, other courses of action may be more effective outside of the context of a forum.
With a police report, what it serves is:
1) To send a clear signal that such behaviour will not be tolerated and made known to the authorities, even if no laws were broken. A RECORD of details and particulars will then exist, and that's the most important part.
2) To help put up a 'wall' of sorts for Organiser since she mentione fear of her own and other girls' safety - in real life, as the alledged offender is said to attend and stalk various shows where such girls may be in attandance. This will hopefully prevent anything happening since the police already knows details like the offnder's name and contact, and since ID is linked to cell phone registration, that can be traced as well, even if numbers are changed.
3) With regard to #2, should anything happen, the police reoprt and record serves as a point of reference for investigations.
Your point of concern is very valid Lim, but the reality is freelancers are very much on their own. The fact is, without a proper and established agency to safeguard their concerns, they are always at greater risk because FLs, by their own choosing for more freedom and likely, more opportunities, or perhaps if they could not qualify to get into a good agency, play a much larger and unregulated field. It's a choice that is made. One possibility is if they form some sort of 'association' for sharing information or networking within more known parameters and help each other out, besides taking the usual precautions.
Having said that, even agency models are always at a risk, though probably much lower given that any respectable agency would not anyhow assign their models if there's any hint of danger or inappropriateness.
Last edited by Dream Merchant; 19th April 2009 at 03:18 PM.
Thank goodness my nick is tSkye then... Michael is a damn common name ok!
if up to now no names are named, it can't be that serious right?
naming names works.
miscreants in shady B/S transacations, bad service, scammers, etc have all been named in CS in the past, sometimes with stellar results.
e.g. naming names really works!
no point wasting time and bandwidth with further blather on this thread. either name the guy or close the thread.
I'm really keen to find out who that pervert is.
Anyway by asking the model to "spread her legs" is enough to report to the police as sexual harassment? I think so ya know. Plus his camera pictures must be like.. PORNOGRAPHIC-like pictures. Isn't that against the law as well? And I still think that someone should actually reveal his identity here. If you're afraid he's a mad guy, create a seperate account and post more about him here?
can i know what everyone is unhappy over? an inconsiderate photoshoot participant or a seemingly lecherous photographer?
if it was over his selfish attitude, then i guess the organisers shld have taken charge of the situation when it happened and this wouldnt have escalated to this kind of thread in the first place.
if it was over his style of photography, without really seeing what kind of pics he took or what he wanted to express in his photos, i think its unfair to jump to conclusion and start calling him names.
i happen to heard of the incident before it was posted here and as much as i would love to jump, i think everyone shld just take 1 step back and view this whole situation rationally. his photos may not be spectacular but i certainly don't think it is that controversial. i will not use the term pornographic because i think i am alot more open minded than most of the ppl here.
hope the parties involved can sort it out among themselves peacefully.
so i don't think he has broken the law. he just acted in an overly boorish and hum sup manner towards the fellow photogs and model.
just expose the guy and move on.
1. He used the flash unit in ANY situations, even when the model face is FULLY lighted up by the sunlight! Imagine ... he was asking us why his photos were overblown! He must have at least a 1,000+ overblown images
2. He will look at any shooter and quickly took over our position to shoot the model!
3. He will run and sweat profusely in a shoot in an air-con room!
4. He will run and stand right in front of you to shoot! when you are still shooting ....
5. Strange, when one is shooting the model, he would go right to the opposite end and started shooting (I am not sure why, but I think he wanted to put our face as the background of the model .... i did caught him at least 3 times in my images, but I deleted those as I NEVER want to shoot any other photographers... but I am sure I would appear in his images in at least a dozen times)
6. We realised that he is seriously sick when he kept asking the model to open her leg and spread out, asked her to take off her hand from covering her parts, etc ....
One of us saw his previews, and they were mostly shot at the private areas .... and after he realised that he was been watched, he didnt preview his shooting again.
7. We did tell him off directly a couple of times not to block others as well as to kool down and not shoot so much! ... and he would said sorry, and after a few mins it was back to old business.
Looking back, I realised that I have made a very big mistake in allowing him to continue. I believe the main reason is that the 4 photographers were too "gentlemen" ... we were too civilised and too forgiving as we literally gave way to him to have his way. We realised that we have a serious case only during the end of the shoot.
I think the model (if she knew about him) and later the organizer should have informed us much earlier, or at least me, about this guy and I would have not given him face and chased him out of the room. I respected the organizers, the models and the other shooters to have voiced my unhappiness at the shoot since everyone seemed to be tolerating him and no one was complaining out loud.... all kept suffering to ourselves.
The important lesson we learnt from this is that in future if anyone faces the same situation, can someone (the model, organiser, or the shooters) please stop the shoot and have a serious discussion to have a solution before continuing the shoot
always the Light, .... always.