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Thread: Windsurfing Expedition

  1. #21

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    does the 50 bucks cover sashima when out on the sea?


    on a more serious note,
    hmmm.. it is fair to pay $50 for the windsurfing expedition if the following are agreed:
    1. NWS club will pay the photographer should they decide to use any photos for whatsoever publicity.
    2. The photographer is not liable should his/her pictures turned out to be a disaster due to the stupid EOS 1D, the salt water etc...
    *blame ur tools, when u cannot deliver..

    bennissez
    maybe u can try to negotiate with the windsurfing club to pay the photographers a token for each published picture?
    $50 for a ride paddled by the national windsurfers is definitely a good bargain!!

  2. #22
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    Gotta agree with Snappist on this one this time.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by lavenderlilz
    Snappist

    Juz wondering - r u a pro?
    lavenderlilz,

    I am not a Pro. I am a pro-Pro.

    For photography to be viable as a career and industry, the market cannot be damaged to the extent of diminishing the market value of photographic services. The standards of photography will suffer in the end as there is little perceived value attached to photography by laymen. What I am doing is to prevent the further erosion by highlighting such malpractices that do no good to the photographic services industry over the long run. When malpractices evolved into potential exploitation, that calls for serious rebuke!

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by snappist
    lavenderlilz,

    I am not a Pro. I am a pro-Pro.

    For photography to be viable as a career and industry, the market cannot be damaged to the extent of diminishing the market value of photographic services. The standards of photography will suffer in the end as there is little perceived value attached to photography by laymen. What I am doing is to prevent the further erosion by highlighting such malpractices that do no good to the photographic services industry over the long run. When malpractices evolved into potential exploitation, that calls for serious rebuke!
    What about cases where its a potential client who promises more work to come in future but wants you to do an existing job either for free or for a nominal fee, would you do it?

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by lavenderlilz
    What about cases where its a potential client who promises more work to come in future but wants you to do an existing job either for free or for a nominal fee, would you do it?
    It all depends.
    It is a hypothetical situation you painted.
    It very much depends on how much value the photographer see in his own photography plus the opportunity costs. It also depends on how much value the potential client see in photographic services, or specifically how much value in the said photographer's services and output.

    As I said for both cases, the important thing is perception. If the perception is bad, even if you do it for free and the output turns out good, the client may still think that it is not worth paying for someone to shoot a little black box that his uncle, nephew or brother also have. If the perception is good, the client may not pay anything but top up more fees voluntarily later.

    Making photographic services cheap in the market with free photographers/paying photographers from clubsnap is one way of making market perception of photographic services go south.

    Go on serious photographers, join in. I am sure you can afford $50.
    If you cannot afford, you can also PM poster. He said he may help.

    Go and let the whole world know that clubsnap is a good forum to post for photographers who will shoot for company, wedding, organisation or your pets. And solicited photographers even pay for that opportunity! Good Lord!
    Last edited by snappist; 29th October 2003 at 11:42 AM.

  6. #26

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    Haven't you guys ever heard of Tom Sawyer?

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by nudi
    does the 50 bucks cover sashima when out on the sea?
    If $50 covers one of their surf girls to massage my tired muscles and back when I need it on the boat during the shoot, I would not have made any noise and would jump at the offer, plus reserve some extra as tips for the masseur.

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by snappist
    If $50 covers one of their surf girls to massage my tired muscles and back when I need it on the boat during the shoot, I would not have made any noise and would jump at the offer, plus reserve some extra as tips for the masseur.
    snappist

    if u r already fantasizing about getting massages while on the expedition, i think u should log off from this forum & head for the new paper classifieds...

    bennissez
    Is there any room for negotiation with the windsurfing club regarding payments for published photos?

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by nudi
    snappist

    if u r already fantasizing about getting massages while on the expedition, i think u should log off from this forum & head for the new paper classifieds...

    bennissez
    Is there any room for negotiation with the windsurfing club regarding payments for published photos?
    y need to pay new paper advertisers when I can get it from my wife.. although at 35 she can still give a 40 year old fat man like me a very good rub.

    I hope the negotiations is really between the club and photographers. If the club is not part of the negotiation. It is indeed alarming! Get what I mean?

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by snappist
    y need to pay new paper advertisers when I can get it from my wife.. although at 35 she can still give a 40 year old fat man like me a very good rub.

    I hope the negotiations is really between the club and photographers. If the club is not part of the negotiation. It is indeed alarming! Get what I mean?
    yup gotcha..

    maybe before the "verdict" is out, we can give bennissez the benefit of doubt...

    __________________________________________________ ________________
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  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by nudi
    yup gotcha..

    maybe before the "verdict" is out, we can give bennissez the benefit of doubt...
    noticed I used "if".
    I am not sentencing anyone.
    I am just laying the possibilities that are not proven yet.

    The accused could be innocent or guilty. The scene of crime and textual evidence collected are very incriminating.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by benissez
    I didn't mention the point until you started posting because I assumed that people would have already figure it out. Anyway, it's not easy to arrange such stuff, the organiser have to take account of your safety and somemore push the limits to allow good camera view. Given at such, not many organisation is willing to take such ordeal to have outsiders around even if you're taking photos for them for free- the moment you're onboard, they become responsible for your well-being till ashore. Unlike hired photographers, they can drop into the sea and the organiser wouldn't be least bothered unless your're lucky.
    I've went to some extent to organise this, is $50 for such package too expensive?
    Organisers are responsible of everyone's safety regardless if the ppl there pay the organiser or not as according to the Unfair Contract Term Act, part 1 section 2, clause 1. This means that even if it's a contract to the general public, if someone die or get injured due to negligence on the part of the organiser, the organiser are still liable and bounded by Singapore law.

    The clause in general.
    2. (1) A person cannot by reference to any contract term or to a notice given to persons generally or to particular persons exclude or restrict his liability for death or personal injury resulting from negligence.

    Therefore, regardless if the photograper gets paid or pay to shoot, the organiser are still responsible for the safety of the photographer when he/she is in the boat....

    Your argument of paying to cover the safety of the photographer is both legally and morally incorrect. So if the organiser are so afraid to be liable for the photographer's safety, maybe they should do the shooting themselves.
    Last edited by Kira; 29th October 2003 at 06:14 PM.

  13. #33
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    StreetShooter, i've just read the story; it's about reverse psychology?

  14. #34
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    Paying to shoot, this I do not think is appropriate. But I would choose to give the thread-starter the benefit of the doubt. It is nice to see someone else (nudi) attempt to help moderate IMO a win-win situation for potential shooters (if any) and the thread-starter and the organiser, by posting something more constructive.

    Now that everyone's have had their piece of the adversorial flambe pie, let's get on with life.

    I'm done with this thread.

  15. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azure
    It is nice to see someone else (nudi) attempt to help moderate IMO a win-win situation for potential shooters (if any) and the thread-starter and the organiser, by posting something more constructive.


    /*sounds of the waterfalls, birds' singing, rustling trees....*/

    what a wonderful world...

  16. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azure
    Paying to shoot, this I do not think is appropriate. But I would choose to give the thread-starter the benefit of the doubt. It is nice to see someone else (nudi) attempt to help moderate IMO a win-win situation for potential shooters (if any) and the thread-starter and the organiser, by posting something more constructive.

    Now that everyone's have had their piece of the adversorial flambe pie, let's get on with life.

    I'm done with this thread.
    Dear Csers,

    This is not about getting your slice of the "adversorial flambe pie" and getting shiok shiok from flaming, criticising, highlighting, publicising, whatever!!!!!

    Getting this straight and on record touches an important valve in the heart of professional photography and the market for photography services in Singapore! Last time the argument was somewhat about volunteering photography services for non-charitable organisations. That thread has disappeared as it may be a polite gesture by the powers that be as the thread had gone "OT" into a serious debate.

    Now the same issue by a different poster has degenerated the crux of the matter to volunteer photography services for "good sounding causes (promoting local sports)" with photographers having to pay "arrangement fees" as a volunteer and to be taken care of during the assignment!!!???!!!!

    It is ironic, one hobby is promoting another at its own expense!

    Unless we have official confirmation from the National Sports Council (NSC) on the mentioned terms as stated by poster, the bottom of this matter is not reached!

    My advise is that those serious photographers who really have the zeal for this "Windsurfing Expedition" to get in touch with the National Surfing Team or NSC directly on volunteering for them. In this case, we will know whether the NSC is indeed so low budgeted until volunteers have to pay an "arrangement fee" to be taken care of. If I am the marcom/PR officer for NSC, this will have made NSC looked really BAD!!!!

    If we turn a blind eye to any trace of misdemeanor, then more of such will appear in future and with worse shape and forms, it has happened!

    Or shall we just prefer "sounds of the waterfalls, birds' singing, rustling trees..." while some unknowning sheeps are getting fleeced by wolfs in sheeps clothing??? (Note: this figure of speech is just a general caution with no reference to anybody)

    Singaporeans, please do not be silent in the photography future of Singapore just because we are tamed to silence in our political future!!!

    I'm not done with this thread.

  17. #37
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    hey snappist, let's wait for the original poster to clarify. in the meanwhile, it's NSAs (National Sporting Association[s]), not NSCs

    i was with you on the previous thread, but this time the issue on hand seems much more trickier than the last one.

  18. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by sehsuan
    hey snappist, let's wait for the original poster to clarify. in the meanwhile, it's NSAs (National Sporting Association[s]), not NSCs

    i was with you on the previous thread, but this time the issue on hand seems much more trickier than the last one.
    I was using the reference from benissez. So many official sounding organisations have been thrown up so far.... NSC, SSC, National Windsurfing Team..... remember most of those african solicitation letters also inferred to some governmental organisations to boost credibilty. (not implying fraud on anyone here, just want to get people to beware). Best course of action is that some serious photographer, who is really keen to volunteer, to contact the relevant sports body directly, eliminating the need for arrangement fees if any at all!

    Quote Originally Posted by benissez
    $50 and the rights are that yours though the National Sports Council may use some of them to promote windsurfing with YOUR NAME on it. Imagine... free publicity... somemore this is not some kiddy water sports club... it's the National Windsurfing Team!
    Last edited by snappist; 29th October 2003 at 11:02 PM.

  19. #39

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    Moderators,

    Pls do not delete or allow this thread to disappear.

    I feel that this thread and the context within is a precedent. It deserves to be a case kept in the archives to increase and substain awareness of the correct/wrong/questionable perimeters in the solicitation of "free" photographic services.

    Thank you.
    Last edited by snappist; 30th October 2003 at 08:21 AM.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by sehsuan
    aiyoh, snappist, one time say that enough already, still want to break the chap's signboard...

    i've worked with another NSA before, they recognize the effort we photogs put in, and offer free drinks to us as welfare... but only diff is, we use our feet to move around, not out at sea, so there'd be minimal costs. but with the coach's boat, what costs are there? it'd be microscopic calculations to how many joules and hence how many rpm the engine runs and in conclusion how much fuel was used to move cameraman + eqpt.

    actually, i dont expect much response for this - because SHOULD anything sway-sway happen, the camera will be swimming in the high corrosive seawater and hitting rock bottom, literally. so who's gonna insure the camera + eqpt in the first place?
    whahaha you can take my 300D no problem, body plastic one

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