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Thread: Windsurfing Expedition

  1. #1
    benissez
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    Cool Windsurfing Expedition

    Dear CSers,

    I have a friend who is in the national wind surfing team and I'd arranged with him to allow photographers to be onboard the coach boat to take photographs of the National team in action.
    If you are interested please let me know.

    Fee (for arrangements): $50
    Time schedule: Weekend (full-day)
    Max Pax: 4 excl myself
    Condition: A copy of the photos taken by you will be kept by the National Windsurfing team and the S'pore Sports Council may use them in promoting windsurfing. Other than the above-mentioned, photographers retain their exclusive rights to the photos taken.

    Please fill in the following form below and I'll contact you at the soonest date as the form is being filled:



    1.
    Name:
    Camera Make and Model:
    Additional equipment used: (please be as precise as possible so that it does not conflict with others' interest)
    Contact number:
    email:
    Ability to swim: (as a safeguard)

    2.
    Name:
    Camera Make and Model:
    Additional equipment used: (please be as precise as possible so that it does not conflict with others' interest)
    Contact number:
    email:
    Ability to swim: (as a safeguard)

    3.
    Name:
    Camera Make and Model:
    Additional equipment used: (please be as precise as possible so that it does not conflict with others' interest)
    Contact number:
    email:
    Ability to swim: (as a safeguard)

    4.
    Name:
    Camera Make and Model:
    Additional equipment used: (please be as precise as possible so that it does not conflict with others' interest)
    Contact number:
    email:
    Ability to swim: (as a safeguard)

  2. #2

    Default

    what a deal?
    take photo for them
    oblige to give them one set...
    and need to pay them $50

    next time doctors pay you money to be their patient.
    and nurses will date you out for dinner to nurse you too.

    we need more of these enterprising ideas to grow photography in Singapore.
    Last edited by snappist; 28th October 2003 at 11:58 PM.

  3. #3
    benissez
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by snappist
    what a deal?
    take photo for them
    oblige to give them one set...
    and need to pay them $50

    next time doctors pay you money to be their patient.
    and nurses will date you out for dinner to nurse you too.
    It's ok if your're not interested. You may always go and find for yourself a better composition. I'm entertaining serious photographers only.

  4. #4

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by benissez
    Dear CSers,
    I have a friend who is in the national wind surfing team and I'd arranged with him to allow photographers to be onboard the coach boat to take photographs of the National team in action.
    If you are interested please let me know.
    Fee (for arrangements): $50
    Time schedule: Weekend (full-day)
    Max Pax: 4 excl myself
    Condition: A copy of the photos taken by you will be kept by the National Windsurfing team and the S'pore Sports Council may use them in promoting windsurfing. Other than the above-mentioned, photographers retain their exclusive rights to the photos taken.
    calling all serious photographers, pls join in

    more of these kinds of enterprising setups from clubsnappers for other willing clubsnappers and a very likely scenario will be..

    community centers, RCs, associations, companies, any organisations who used to pay money for professionals to work on their event can waive the expenditure for photography.

    Because one of their member or member's friend knows about clubsnap and the ready pool of photographers who are willing to take such assignments to shoot. And for arranging for clubsnappers to shoot,
    they can ask for one set of the shots as an obligation to be allowed to shoot.
    what's more??? Now... they can ask for arrangment fees

    This is an old issue that I pointed out. It is repeating!
    And "freelance" "volunteer" photographers now need to pay

    Serious photographers pls join in!!!
    Last edited by snappist; 29th October 2003 at 12:13 AM.

  5. #5
    benissez
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by snappist
    calling all serious photographers, pls join in

    more of these kinds of enterprising setups from clubsnappers for other willing clubsnappers and a very likely scenario will be..

    community centers, RCs, associations, companies, any organisations who used to pay money for professionals to work on their event can waive the expenditure for photography.

    Because one of their member or member's friend knows about clubsnap and the ready pool of photographers who are willing to take such assignments to shoot. And for arranging for clubsnappers to shoot,
    they can ask for one set of the shots as an obligation to be allowed to shoot.
    what's more??? Now... they can ask for arrangment fees

    This is an old issue that I pointed out. It is repeating!
    And "freelance" "volunteer" photographers now need to pay

    Serious photographers pls join in!!!

    Not is as money minded as you think. There're hobbyist and those who are seeking to establish themsleves in the photographic arena. If you sincerely can't afford $50 for an opportunity like this, I seriously doubt how far sighted you are.

  6. #6

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    Hi guys,

    I seldom get into debates as such. However, I've an experience to share. I have been taking wakeboarding shots as some of you might have noticed and in the most recent trip, the owner of the wakeboarding ctr actually asked if i could help him take some pics for the centre. He would provide the boat, all the help I need, the top wakeboarders and so on. Their budget is tight but they made these provisions.

    When I first saw your thread, I was very interested, I consider myself a serious photographer but frankly, it does seem alittle overboard asking for $50 plus they get the photos they want.

    Having said all this, its up to you guys and your perogative as to how badly you want to shoot this kinda pics, and admitedly, this type of opportunity isn't easy to come by. $50 could be worth it.

    Cheers!

  7. #7

    Default

    serious photographers pls join in...
    only $50 to shoot for somebody's friend's club.
    and you just need to give them one set of whatever you shot.

    Do not be seriously doubted on how far sighted you are.
    Only pay $50 dollars.
    And you help some organisation save real money from paying professionals to shoot plus u promote local sports.
    what a deal!

    Join this shoot!

    Ask other organisations and or companies to post their event here for photographers and they can even get some revenue from photographers who will pay to shoot on duty!

  8. #8
    benissez
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by snappist
    serious photographers pls join in...
    only $50 to shoot for somebody's friend's club.
    and you just need to give them one set of whatever you shot.

    Do not be seriously doubted on how far sighted you are.
    Only pay $50 dollars.
    And you help some organisation save real money from paying professionals to shoot plus u promote local sports.
    what a deal!

    Join this shoot!

    Ask other organisations and or companies to post their event here for photographers and they can even get some revenue from photographers who will pay to shoot on duty!
    $50 and the rights are that yours though the National Sports Council may use some of them to promote windsurfing with YOUR NAME on it. Imagine... free publicity... somemore this is not some kiddy water sports club... it's the National Windsurfing Team!

    If you think you can get a free little boat ride to get a better composition, go else where, your messages here are very sour. If you truly can't afford $50, PM me, I will consider.

  9. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by benissez
    $50 and the rights are that yours though the National Sports Council may use some of them to promote windsurfing with YOUR NAME on it. Imagine... free publicity... somemore this is not some kiddy water sports club... it's the National Windsurfing Team!
    okay... now that you mention the extra point...not too bad....
    for aspiring photographers if they wanna get some good training and maybe from there some good shots with credits should those shots be used commercially. It is quite a win-win situation.
    Without this point raised, I had seen it more as a win-lose situation.

    I am not posting just to pick a fight.
    I am posting only when I feel something is not right.
    Of cause, your latest point steered my feelings a little bit.

    Serious photographers pls join in!

    In addition,
    For those who will join such arrangements, you can protect your rights as "paying" photographers by signing a letter of undertaking/agreement, between the organisation and you, that says that the said organisation (in this case the National Sports Council) will credit you as the photographer if your works are used commercially and all copyrights belong to you.
    Last edited by snappist; 29th October 2003 at 12:51 AM.

  10. #10
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    Default

    Snappist

    Juz wondering - r u a pro?

  11. #11
    benissez
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    Quote Originally Posted by snappist
    okay... now that you mention the extra point...not too bad....
    for aspiring photographers if they wanna get some good training and maybe from there some good shots with credits should those shots be used commercially. It is quite a win-win situation.
    Without this point raised, I had seen it more as a win-lose situation.

    I am not posting just to pick a fight.
    I am posting only when I feel something is not right.
    Of cause, your latest point steered my feelings a little bit.

    Serious photographers pls join in!

    In addition,
    For those who will join such arrangements, you can protect your rights as "paying" photographers by signing a letter of undertaking/agreement, between the organisation and you, that says that the said organisation (in this case the National Sports Council) will credit you as the photographer if your works are used commercially and all copyrights belong to you.

    I didn't mention the point until you started posting because I assumed that people would have already figure it out. Anyway, it's not easy to arrange such stuff, the organiser have to take account of your safety and somemore push the limits to allow good camera view. Given at such, not many organisation is willing to take such ordeal to have outsiders around even if you're taking photos for them for free- the moment you're onboard, they become responsible for your well-being till ashore. Unlike hired photographers, they can drop into the sea and the organiser wouldn't be least bothered unless your're lucky.
    I've went to some extent to organise this, is $50 for such package too expensive?

  12. #12
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    aiyoh, snappist, one time say that enough already, still want to break the chap's signboard...

    i've worked with another NSA before, they recognize the effort we photogs put in, and offer free drinks to us as welfare... but only diff is, we use our feet to move around, not out at sea, so there'd be minimal costs. but with the coach's boat, what costs are there? it'd be microscopic calculations to how many joules and hence how many rpm the engine runs and in conclusion how much fuel was used to move cameraman + eqpt.

    actually, i dont expect much response for this - because SHOULD anything sway-sway happen, the camera will be swimming in the high corrosive seawater and hitting rock bottom, literally. so who's gonna insure the camera + eqpt in the first place?

  13. #13
    Moderator Clown's Avatar
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    yea.. come to think of it, everything was going well till i hit the though about bringing my cam to the sea... then red 'stop' signs started appearing everywhere in my head.

    so.. are there any insurances available for our cameras (our ricebowls for some of us)?

  14. #14
    benissez
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clown
    yea.. come to think of it, everything was going well till i hit the though about bringing my cam to the sea... then red 'stop' signs started appearing everywhere in my head.

    so.. are there any insurances available for our cameras (our ricebowls for some of us)?
    If your cam is an expensive cam, you ought to have it insured by an insurance company. Check out with Income & AIA.

  15. #15
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    Let's see....

    $50X4=$200

    Cost of Petrol=$50 the most.(Don't expect those fancy yacht)
    Cost of phone call for arrangements=$10(Still got left some for coffee)

    So where does the rest of the arrangement fee go to? Don't tell me the windsurfing center need to rent a boat to cover this shooting. I used to windsurf and I know how is it like.... The Pasta Fresca sailing center have their own boats to cover safety. Therefore I believe the National Sailing Center should have a few too.

    Unless a resonable breakdown of the "arrangement" fee is seen here, don't expect much responce to this shooting.

    Not to mention the possibility of damage and/or lost of equipment to the photographer under such shooting conditions.

    And what will the photographer get out of all this? A few shoots of our own National Windsurfing Team to add to your portfoilo and probability a small print of your name on one of your shoots choosen by the National Sports Council.

    It's sad that exploitation of this forum for free photographers have reach this stage where the photographer have to pay to shoot something that cost next to nothing to arrange. I urge all photographer, amateur alike, to unit together and bring the standard of this industry up. Don't be exploited of your time, money and skills.

    I'm not someone that uses such strong words but in this case, I feel that this is too much.

    So "Serious Photographer", pls feel free to apply.

  16. #16
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    erm, what's the "conflict with others' interests" supposed to be about, anyway?

    can't help it, but this kind of reminds me of what some other diver CS'er telling me that this particular foreign dive center wanted to have a copy of every diver's photo who were diving with them. luckily one particular CS'er was smart enough NOT to give her photos to the diveshop, because diving photos are especially hard to get - since you are literally shooting "somewhere" in water. and to top it off, the divers have to pay the diveshop to shoot when it's public access areas??? granted that the diveshop has divemasters who know *where* to dive, but is it that hard to do so on a powered boat shooting wind-powered windsurfers, national or not?

    i'm pretty sure i can volunteer with some other land-based NSA for shots AND get some welfare without having to pay - which is a sure win-win scenario, and on top of it, i don't risk drowning - err... my camera won't face drowning...

    sorry to break your thread benissez, but your arrangement may not be that viable to most of us, because most of us are amateur photographers (non-"professional") and the potential death of a camera is like a jagged dagger through the heart. professionals wouldn't mind, because they change camera bodies like literally, "nobody's business"

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kira
    Let's see....
    $50X4=$200
    Cost of Petrol=$50 the most.(Don't expect those fancy yacht)
    Cost of phone call for arrangements=$10(Still got left some for coffee)
    So where does the rest of the arrangement fee go to? Don't tell me the windsurfing center need to rent a boat to cover this shooting. I used to windsurf and I know how is it like.... The Pasta Fresca sailing center have their own boats to cover safety. Therefore I believe the National Sailing Center should have a few too.
    Unless a resonable breakdown of the "arrangement" fee is seen here, don't expect much responce to this shooting.
    Not to mention the possibility of damage and/or lost of equipment to the photographer under such shooting conditions.
    And what will the photographer get out of all this? A few shoots of our own National Windsurfing Team to add to your portfoilo and probability a small print of your name on one of your shoots choosen by the National Sports Council.
    It's sad that exploitation of this forum for free photographers have reach this stage where the photographer have to pay to shoot something that cost next to nothing to arrange. I urge all photographer, amateur alike, to unit together and bring the standard of this industry up. Don't be exploited of your time, money and skills.
    I'm not someone that uses such strong words but in this case, I feel that this is too much.
    So "Serious Photographer", pls feel free to apply.
    I had the same sentiments too.
    I had thought that there will be minimal costs outlay to the organisations. As th organisations require a copy of shots that may be used for commercial purposes, they should also cover all the costs needed even for hiring a boat. And what part of the "arrangement fee" of $50 X4 will help in the following as pointed by the poster
    1."will make it easier to arrange such stuff"???
    2."the organiser have to take account of your safety"???
    3."somemore push the limits to allow good camera view"???
    4."Given at such, not many organisation is willing to take such ordeal to have outsiders around even if you're taking photos for them for free- the moment you're onboard, they become responsible for your well-being till ashore. Unlike hired photographers, they can drop into the sea and the organiser wouldn't be least bothered unless your're lucky." ----
    This point 4 is interesting. (I may be wrong in my intepretation, but here's what I understand from the description)
    They pay money for photographer and they are bothered about saving the hired photographer. They have free photographer, they will not be bothered and you need luck to save yourself. So when you, the photographer, pay $50, they grow some instant responsibility for you and became bothered. Without money they will not be bothered and you are left to drown?? If their responsiblity is so hard to find. Then I hope they have some responsibility to sign the letter of agreement as mentioned before shooting and paying them $50. I believe many organisations will not want such ordeal of servicing photographers. But when the organisations demand one copy of shots that could be used commercially, despite crediting the photographers, they are obliged to come up with some responsibility and cost outlay for the project.

    The major sore point I believe many people share is that solicited "volunteer" photographers had to even pay for $50.
    that is not much... for an arrangement fee.
    But first time I had heard of an arrangment fee from the solicited photographers' services.....

    I knew of a professional colour center who is a sponsor for a singer. THis colour center went all the way and do all the studio and outdoor shots for a new up and coming singer. In return the singer and talent management company will get all kinds of prints with the major return to the colour center that their photographer be credited as "The photographer". The colour center for all its efforts was not liable to come up with any cash, just its efforts, professional services and rescources. All these will add up to a fair bit. And when the singer did not credit the colour center later on, a lawyer's letter shot over immediately!

    Are clubsnappers' photographic services so cheapskate that instead of getting paid, we have to "Tow Tiap" (hokkien word meaning cover back some cash)????

    "It's sad that exploitation of this forum for free photographers have reach this stage where the photographer have to pay to shoot something that cost next to nothing to arrange. I urge all photographer, amateur alike, to unit together and bring the standard of this industry up. Don't be exploited of your time, money and skills. "
    I SECOND THAT!!! I THIRD THAT!!! I FOURTH THAT!!!! I FIFTH THAT!!!!!!

    Serious photographers pls sign up for this great opportunity.
    Pay $50 only, don't tell us you cannot afford? Cannot afford pls pm poster, he may help.
    Last edited by snappist; 29th October 2003 at 08:27 AM.

  18. #18

    Default Wedding Photographer Wanted

    We are a lovely couple and are marrying in Dec 2003.
    Currently we are auditioning for wedding photographers.
    We need two wedding photographers (one colour and one black and white) who have some experience.
    If you do not have much, you can also apply, provided your normal photography shots of insects, flowers and cats impress us with good exposure and composition.

    This is a good opportunity for you to learn what to do in a wedding photography assignment if you aspire to grow in this area as I do not think couples will give newbies a chance.

    These are what will happen in the interview
    1. show us a porffolio of your portfolio of wedding or photography
    2. show us your equipment (only SLR need apply, we will be impressed with L lens types but normal 3rd party lens are also okay)
    3. prefer digital SLR (Camera Make and Model, please be as precise as possible so that it does not conflict with others' interest)
    4. ability to use photoshop (as a safeguard in case your exposure goes haywire and post processing work is required by photographer.)
    5. make sure you service your equipment before bringing them to meet us as we do not like "fungus" infected lens because it affects performance.
    6. on the spot questions on photography may be asked, so be prepared for questions on exposure, flash metering and the likes. This applies more for newbies.

    Fee (for arrangements): $150 (included catered buffet lunch and a packet of quick chicken rice dinner plus two packets of Yeos, do not drink beer during dinner as we do not want you to get drunk)
    Time schedule: 2 Weekends (full-day)
    Maximum photographers allowed: 3
    Condition: A copy of the photos (digital files and original negatives will be duplicated and kept by me) taken by you will be kept by me. I may use them for any purpose. Other than the above-mentioned, photographers retain their exclusive rights to the photos taken.

    $150 is low considering that it is an opportunity of a lifetime and who else will give you this chance?? We are also insuring against defects for you because in case your digital shots turn out bad and you do not know photoshop, we can turn the files to a professional colour center to pay extra for some salvaging works on the files. We also need to cover some cost of duplicating the negatives.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    The above is an example of a solicitation that is likely to be posted on clubsnap in future to exploit photographers.
    Last edited by snappist; 29th October 2003 at 08:11 AM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by snappist
    We are a lovely couple and are marrying in Dec 2003.

    *blah blah blah*

    We also need to cover some cost of duplicating the negatives.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    hey snappist, you've forgotten! digitals don't have negatives!

    but upon re-reading the initial post, it seems like the poster, benissez, did not explicitly mention that he's (or she's) a *part* of the NSA/National team. So to whom, does this $50 go to? the surfer? the boatman? or to him?

    though i have never taken any assignments before, this is getting waaaaay ridiculous, though i agree that i may take back my words once there is a cost breakdown. i cannot see the point of "pay $50, we'll take care of you, you're lucky if other ppl take care of you if you don't pay" scenario. by the way, in case of a calamity, folks who can afford to save themselves should help those who need help - but would regular seafaring folks need a $50 to save anyone, should anything happen? touch wood of course, we hope the weather's fine, and everything's insured (not just the camera, but also a life insurance policy on the photographer too lar.... ) - but should anything happen - despite claims and such, who's going to be responsible SHOULD anything way unforeseen happen, such as the coach's boat capsizes? in such a situation, i would suggest those interested to really consider also, the potential salt spray that will arise from waves - not only threatening your camera, but also the seawater that has dried on your hands. still as corrosive, isn't it?

  20. #20

    Wink

    [QUOTE=sehsuan]hey snappist, you've forgotten! digitals don't have negatives!
    QUOTE]

    Sehsuan,
    I have not forgotten. You did not catch me there.

    "3. prefer digital SLR"

    refer to point three posted by fictitious wedding couple. They wrote that they prefer digital so that leaves film photography as the other alternative which they might have to pay money to duplicate, right?

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