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Thread: THREE models backing out of shoots within ONE week -.- Grrr.

  1. #61
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    Default Re: THREE models backing out of shoots within ONE week -.- Grrr.

    Quote Originally Posted by sORe-EyEz View Post
    there are workable parts to Evolutions suggestions. if organisers are made to pay subscription, why not the models? both parties have their fingers in the money pie, it would be unfair for organisers.

    well, not directly linked (its in CS's forum afterall)...
    well, easier said than done... i expect to hear alot of boos later on... esp from models.

    actually from what i can see now is, organisers pay to CS like a form of advertising their shoots. then models are employed by them.

    If say we use evo's theory, then we would be deemed 'double' charging. And models might wanna take even more shoots to cover the initial cost. Then another round of who pay more will arise... and all these cost will go back to the photographers. and then the organisers will have lesser earnings when models demand more. then they promote more shoot, then lesser ppl participate and you'll see organisers cancelling shoots due to low participation. another point is, you might see 50 to 1 model kinda shoot... u want?

    As for the money part, i guess i leave it as it is now... afterall, i just hope everybody have fun shooting... if the models cmi, please drop them, if the organiser sucks, just go join another shoot... we're here to have fun, not to broad over all these human resulted misery.
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  2. #62

    Default Re: THREE models backing out of shoots within ONE week -.- Grrr.

    I haven't joined a organised shoot but I do hope to join one in future.I have reading up on the recent models and organisers complains.

    while there are no perfect systems to blackist these people, i still feel that there should be a system in place.

    with a blacklist system in place, models will think 10 times and think hard before pulling out of a shoot. without a blacklist, these models will happy happy fly areoplane

  3. #63
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    Default Re: THREE models backing out of shoots within ONE week -.- Grrr.

    All in all, I agree with mods/admins stand that CS' involvement should stop at the line of allowing a platform for organizers to advertise their services. Much like the way Classified allows almost anyone to buy an Ad space, but will not be responsible for the conduct of the person's actual business (in general). Organizers should be the one taking up the mantle to improve and structuralise their service. This may indirectly increase overheads and in turn prices. However, I am of the opinion that there indeed should be a premium paid for "peace of mind", i.e I pay to join a shoot which is priced higher than others knowingly because I understand that this organizer has a good system in place (money back if shoot cancelled, models who sign contract on per job basis to reduce no-show risk, collecting deposits from photographers to confirm places, proper shooting aid equipment etc).

    I am in the opinion that most of the organizers want to improve since they bothered to post threads to ask for suggestions and I applaud that. As previously suggested by me, there can be more communication between organisers to share their experience and knowledge and also information about models. If the models know their behaviour will have serious repercussions regarding their future employment chances in the photoshoot organising industry (if I may call it that), then they will generally be more careful. This on top of whatever the organizer can put in place to protect his/her own business and the service quality the consumers receive, and I believe such complains will drop to much lower frequencies in the mid term and long term.

  4. #64

    Default Re: THREE models backing out of shoots within ONE week -.- Grrr.

    Only a few years ago when each model worked for only one organiser, there were no cancellations from any of the shoots that I joined. Though costing a little more, the shoots were better organised with mua and models who knew their responsibility and how to work with photographers. They were really enjoyable.
    Then models started organising shoots themselves and organisers started using freelancing XMMs. Most also do shows, distributing flyers, mingling, etc which is easier, more lucrative and afford more perks especially mingling at parties where there is free flow of liquor. In the end, we have kangaroos, pandas and invisible girls who will not hesitate to abandon a shoot if they offerred and find something better after agreeing to the shoot. Many have difficulty striking a pose even when shown. If this continues, CS model shoots are going to be just circus shows.
    With so many "flying nuns" nowadays, I think I am better off switching to shooting landscape.

  5. #65
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    Default Re: THREE models backing out of shoots within ONE week -.- Grrr.

    Quote Originally Posted by Del_CtrlnoAlt View Post
    well, easier said than done... i expect to hear alot of boos later on... esp from models.

    actually from what i can see now is, organisers pay to CS like a form of advertising their shoots. then models are employed by them.

    If say we use evo's theory, then we would be deemed 'double' charging. And models might wanna take even more shoots to cover the initial cost. Then another round of who pay more will arise... and all these cost will go back to the photographers. and then the organisers will have lesser earnings when models demand more. then they promote more shoot, then lesser ppl participate and you'll see organisers cancelling shoots due to low participation. another point is, you might see 50 to 1 model kinda shoot... u want?

    As for the money part, i guess i leave it as it is now... afterall, i just hope everybody have fun shooting... if the models cmi, please drop them, if the organiser sucks, just go join another shoot... we're here to have fun, not to broad over all these human resulted misery.
    nothing is easy, not for a forum that has been around some years. not that there no changes were made to date. eh, why you scared models *boo*? now organiser/s, & participants already *boo* oso wad.

    shoot organisers pay to advertise, models oso advertise mah. link: http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=53

    pay more expect more, pay less dun ask for so much loh. eh, this is a photography forum where $1000+ buys oni beginner DSLR kit. if really want something most will be willing to pay for quality. in this case quality is the bone of contention, organiser/s + model/s.

    who's gloating over human misery? from the TS 1st post, does it sound like its fun all the way everyday? joining a paid photoshoot is not a game of chance (teekum teekum), there's no good reason for participants (to a lesser extend, organisers too) to recieve the short end of the straw. not when black sheeps get away with nothing & yet get paid. lol.
    have u seen the "light" yet?

  6. #66
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    Default Re: THREE models backing out of shoots within ONE week -.- Grrr.

    this is wrong. why are we paying to take photos for people?

    They should pay us to take photos for them!

    but bottomline is, i pay the organiser. if anything goes wrong, it's the organiser's fault. just like going for a tour overseas. you pay the agent, if anything goes wrong, it's the travel agent's fault. i don't care if the bus driver's pet cat swallowed a marble. my tour carries on!

    that's the whole point of paying an organiser, right? otherwise why are they getting paid in the first place? so aiyah, don't think so much. let the organisers sort it out.

    if i go for organiser A;s shoot, its cancelled at the last minute, it's his/her fault. i'm not going to spend money on him again.

    money talks, customers walk!
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  7. #67
    Senior Member denniskee's Avatar
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    Default Re: THREE models backing out of shoots within ONE week -.- Grrr.

    Quote Originally Posted by antacid View Post
    but bottomline is, i pay the organiser. if anything goes wrong, it's the organiser's fault. just like going for a tour overseas. you pay the agent, if anything goes wrong, it's the travel agent's fault. i don't care if the bus driver's pet cat swallowed a marble. my tour carries on!

    that's the whole point of paying an organiser, right? otherwise why are they getting paid in the first place? so aiyah, don't think so much. let the organisers sort it out.

    if i go for organiser A;s shoot, its cancelled at the last minute, it's his/her fault. i'm not going to spend money on him again.

    money talks, customers walk!
    ((=
    well said

    if the contractor u engaged to renovate ur house has a problem with his supplier, who should be answerable?

    i dont get the logic that some are saying here.
    photography makes one sees things from all angles.

  8. #68
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    Default Re: THREE models backing out of shoots within ONE week -.- Grrr.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godzilla Invades View Post
    I have work with models (Singaporeans) before and sorry to say but (especially when they think they are popular) 60% of them are so UNPROFESSIONAL about their work ethics.

    They don't really care if they miss a shoot as to them, it's the photographers which are hungry for them as they(the models) are not really paid that well in the first place for this organised photoshoots on CS.

    I can share a few experience with you all on how models behave and I do blacklist them (some of them are supermodels). I was organising a shoot for a client of mine and they asked me to look for 2 models to fit into their theme. So as usual, calling some models via my network. Many came for the audition and my client narrow down to 2 models out of the 30 that came for it. We shortlisted another 2 more just in case something happen to the first 2.

    It took a good 3 weeks to organise with the 2 models and my client for the actual photoshoot. Oh yeah my client WAS going to pay them SGD$1000 each for 6 hours work which was a good market rate. At the very last hour, the 2 MODELS did not turn up at all, mobiles were switch off and there was no way to contact them at all.

    So obviously my client was not a happy man as he had to cancel his overseas trip just for this shoot. Thank god we were smart enough to shortlisted the other 2 models which happen to be free on that particular day. So shoot went on and finish off with a smile on my client's face. He was happy this 2 models were very professional and had great work ethics. The results came out better than expected and he decided to reward them with an additional $200 on top of the $1000 her was paying them.

    The very next day, the 2 models called me and told me some super lame excuse telling me there was an emergency at their home (obviously it was not as they were partying the whole night before with my friends until 5am). I told them I will never engage them and have them blacklisted for my future clients.

    As usual life goes on for me as another client of mine decided to engage me for a photoshoot for their fashion labels. So they showed me the models which they shortlisted and guess what? It was the 2 models they AEROPLANE me and my previous client. So this client of mine asked me what I think about this 2 models. Obviously I was very frank and told them that about the incident that happened. This client of mine was more fussy than the last one.

    So he called them up and told them nicely that he was not engaging them anymore as they were blacklisted by me. The 2 models called me and just blasted away with all the vulgar language. The best part was telling them this job went to the 2 model who came to my rescue on my last shoot. To top up the icing on the cake, I mentioned to them my current client will be paying them (the models who came to my rescue) $2,500 per person for the 2 days shoot.

    Sounds evil but that's the way to handle some of this brainless bimbos.....


    Excellent

  9. #69

    Default Re: THREE models backing out of shoots within ONE week -.- Grrr.

    Quote Originally Posted by denniskee View Post
    well said

    if the contractor u engaged to renovate ur house has a problem with his supplier, who should be answerable?

    i dont get the logic that some are saying here.
    err i dont quite agree, model are human and as human they are all unique. tour trip or floor tiles are not unique, u can get the same package tour or tile from different agent or distributor. model is one and only one but she/he can work for different agent but that does not change the characteristic of that model.

    model A fly aeroplane on organizer B, that doesnt imply that model A will not do the same when he/she switch to organizer C. thou the organizer is responsible for the shoot, there are variables that no one can control, like the weather and attitude of the model.

    we cant really blame the organizer if the model decide to play pilot, but as organizer he/she is responsible for backup model or refund/discount should the shoot carry on but with different model.

    I would damm a organizer if he/she keep organizing shoot with a famous pilot model just becos he/she poses well and is beautiful. organizer should be responsible enough to use reliable and responsible model as much as possible to ensure that the shoot goes well.


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  10. #70

    Default Re: THREE models backing out of shoots within ONE week -.- Grrr.

    Melody-Love, These things happen all the time. Hope you have better luck soon.

  11. #71
    vince123123
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    Default Re: THREE models backing out of shoots within ONE week -.- Grrr.

    I suggest you name those two aeroplane pilots here! Then they will realise their acts have really far reaching consequences. Since you are already prepared to tell another client about them, take the next step and name them here.

    If they want to be vulgar about it, call me up and we can work something to make them criminally liable for more offences HEHE

    Quote Originally Posted by Godzilla Invades View Post
    I have work with models (Singaporeans) before and sorry to say but (especially when they think they are popular) 60% of them are so UNPROFESSIONAL about their work ethics.

    They don't really care if they miss a shoot as to them, it's the photographers which are hungry for them as they(the models) are not really paid that well in the first place for this organised photoshoots on CS.

    I can share a few experience with you all on how models behave and I do blacklist them (some of them are supermodels). I was organising a shoot for a client of mine and they asked me to look for 2 models to fit into their theme. So as usual, calling some models via my network. Many came for the audition and my client narrow down to 2 models out of the 30 that came for it. We shortlisted another 2 more just in case something happen to the first 2.

    It took a good 3 weeks to organise with the 2 models and my client for the actual photoshoot. Oh yeah my client WAS going to pay them SGD$1000 each for 6 hours work which was a good market rate. At the very last hour, the 2 MODELS did not turn up at all, mobiles were switch off and there was no way to contact them at all.

    So obviously my client was not a happy man as he had to cancel his overseas trip just for this shoot. Thank god we were smart enough to shortlisted the other 2 models which happen to be free on that particular day. So shoot went on and finish off with a smile on my client's face. He was happy this 2 models were very professional and had great work ethics. The results came out better than expected and he decided to reward them with an additional $200 on top of the $1000 her was paying them.

    The very next day, the 2 models called me and told me some super lame excuse telling me there was an emergency at their home (obviously it was not as they were partying the whole night before with my friends until 5am). I told them I will never engage them and have them blacklisted for my future clients.

    As usual life goes on for me as another client of mine decided to engage me for a photoshoot for their fashion labels. So they showed me the models which they shortlisted and guess what? It was the 2 models they AEROPLANE me and my previous client. So this client of mine asked me what I think about this 2 models. Obviously I was very frank and told them that about the incident that happened. This client of mine was more fussy than the last one.

    So he called them up and told them nicely that he was not engaging them anymore as they were blacklisted by me. The 2 models called me and just blasted away with all the vulgar language. The best part was telling them this job went to the 2 model who came to my rescue on my last shoot. To top up the icing on the cake, I mentioned to them my current client will be paying them (the models who came to my rescue) $2,500 per person for the 2 days shoot.

    Sounds evil but that's the way to handle some of this brainless bimbos.....

  12. #72

    Default Re: THREE models backing out of shoots within ONE week -.- Grrr.

    Quote Originally Posted by JayKay View Post
    ...

    Many have difficulty striking a pose even when shown. If this continues, CS model shoots are going to be just circus shows.
    With so many "flying nuns" nowadays, I think I am better off switching to shooting landscape.
    It already has. We have too many shoots being organized with too many models who had NO experiences nor talents. How many shoots that are organized and posted here actually happens. I know of 2 being canceled this weekend.

    For models who fly aeroplane on my shoot, I am harsh, unless the explanation is ironclad with proofs, no second chance, because liars and flakes do not deserve a second chance.

    One more thing, all our attempts to police, improve, clean up the mess, will be totally useless unless the aggrieved is willing to name names.
    Last edited by Deadpoet; 3rd April 2009 at 01:57 AM.
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  13. #73
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    Default Re: THREE models backing out of shoots within ONE week -.- Grrr.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godzilla Invades View Post
    I have work with models (Singaporeans) before and sorry to say but (especially when they think they are popular) 60% of them are so UNPROFESSIONAL about their work ethics.

    They don't really care if they miss a shoot as to them, it's the photographers which are hungry for them as they(the models) are not really paid that well in the first place for this organised photoshoots on CS.

    I can share a few experience with you all on how models behave and I do blacklist them (some of them are supermodels). I was organising a shoot for a client of mine and they asked me to look for 2 models to fit into their theme. So as usual, calling some models via my network. Many came for the audition and my client narrow down to 2 models out of the 30 that came for it. We shortlisted another 2 more just in case something happen to the first 2.

    It took a good 3 weeks to organise with the 2 models and my client for the actual photoshoot. Oh yeah my client WAS going to pay them SGD$1000 each for 6 hours work which was a good market rate. At the very last hour, the 2 MODELS did not turn up at all, mobiles were switch off and there was no way to contact them at all.

    So obviously my client was not a happy man as he had to cancel his overseas trip just for this shoot. Thank god we were smart enough to shortlisted the other 2 models which happen to be free on that particular day. So shoot went on and finish off with a smile on my client's face. He was happy this 2 models were very professional and had great work ethics. The results came out better than expected and he decided to reward them with an additional $200 on top of the $1000 her was paying them.

    The very next day, the 2 models called me and told me some super lame excuse telling me there was an emergency at their home (obviously it was not as they were partying the whole night before with my friends until 5am). I told them I will never engage them and have them blacklisted for my future clients.

    As usual life goes on for me as another client of mine decided to engage me for a photoshoot for their fashion labels. So they showed me the models which they shortlisted and guess what? It was the 2 models they AEROPLANE me and my previous client. So this client of mine asked me what I think about this 2 models. Obviously I was very frank and told them that about the incident that happened. This client of mine was more fussy than the last one.

    So he called them up and told them nicely that he was not engaging them anymore as they were blacklisted by me. The 2 models called me and just blasted away with all the vulgar language. The best part was telling them this job went to the 2 model who came to my rescue on my last shoot. To top up the icing on the cake, I mentioned to them my current client will be paying them (the models who came to my rescue) $2,500 per person for the 2 days shoot.

    Sounds evil but that's the way to handle some of this brainless bimbos.....
    it's not 60% to be honest. it's 90%! that's why i have an embargo against singaporean models liao.
    Opinions are like A-holes. Everyone's got one.

  14. #74

    Default Re: THREE models backing out of shoots within ONE week -.- Grrr.

    glad melody brought this matter up...1 of the main reason of models flying us planes...is the LACK OF RESPECT for the CS Community...Only if they have more respect for shoots organised in this forum.

    Real Example 1: Model A
    4 months ago...
    I interviewed a real beautiful, classy lady. She showed me her portfolio...i have only 1 word to describle "SUCKS!!!!!!!".
    How the F*** he can make Model A look so bad!!! I recruited her. I called a friend whose a master class award winning photographer to shoot a test for her...my friend agreed, delivered and shot a stunning folio for Model A.

    I proceed to use Model A for a CS advertised fashion shoot. During makeup/gossip time, she revealed the photographer (an X organiser in CS & the one who shoot her initial portfolio) told her not to shoot in CS organised shoots as CS shoots are NO GOOD!!!

    I was thinking...F! F the X organiser that told her that. How wrong can X organiser be...
    Many Many good photographer started of in CS
    Now Many Many international models (from modellin) works in CS

    A month ago, I proposed to her to shoot in my 'Timeless Romance' series. But she showed No interest...I don't blame her. Her opinon of this community has already been set.


    Real Example 2: Model B
    2 months ago...
    I interviewed a real real sexy, Fiona Xie look-alike girl.
    I briefed her that I will engage her for my simple theme shoots for her to gain experience and make some money...She agreed knowing that the photographers joining are hobbist etc
    She called 3 days before shoot and said she saw my advert in CS and don't want to be shoot by non-professionals!!! She hinted and asked me of my impression of X-organiser. How the FISH...X-organiser comes in the picture again...! Itold Model B to F off. Don't look down on this community...

    So morale of story, finding good models is tough liao...
    Potential talents that can be trained and developed are shying away...



    Dear X-organiser...as you know, 4-5 yrs ago, i was the first few to introduced internationals models in CS shoots. Till this day, these girls only have good words and enjoyed the most shooting in this community...

    Dear X-organiser...as you know, two of my top local girls Estelle & Rachel haved modelled for a total of 13 yrs...they started off in this community too! First photographer that shoot Estelle is William Chua..........first photographer that shoot Rachel is Deadpoet!

    So what's so bad with CS shoots! Give us a break...some respect please...

  15. #75
    Senior Member ejunlow's Avatar
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    Smile Re: THREE models backing out of shoots within ONE week -.- Grrr.

    In relation to charby...

    i have a feeling its gotta do with the sudden insurge of photographers owning SLR/DSLRS now... 4-5 years ago is probably when consumer DSLRS become truly affordable for the mass market (300D/D70 era), as that caught on, i'm looking at secondary school kids with D700 units and my brother at 16 is already toying with a 50D body...

    To add, I'm sure CS has grown in popularity and counts a huge local amatuer audience as members. Putting it all together, its the photographers work that might be making the models look bad... (how many of those photographers have the calibre of William or DP?)

    Farther, shoot organisers are getting an insurge too! very often without technical knowledge nor are they even models or photographers in the first place... so if all it takes is a certain someone to make a recruitment for good looking people.... i believe that's where all the little problems will amount to ruining the respect for this community.

    While Clubsnap is great to learn and share.... some will (precisely) for this reason feel its a place where amatuers begin and hence the CARE LESS attitude when dealing with them..

    In relation to Melody...

    An agreement (verbal or otherwise) when broken really deserves to be rooted out at its problem... and I truly suggest some form of SCREENING or AGREEMENT to be counter-signed.
    If this can be taken into suggestion as a CLUBSNAP organisers S.O.P, I'm pretty sure amatuer models will show more respect to those organisers that are actually doing them the publicity.

    (i've never been to an organised shoot - but still... business is business.. and with business comes ethics that needs to be in place)

    Last but not least - I believe quite a few are following this thread.. and if the MAJORITY of ORGANISERS (especially the senior ones like CHARBY) are all able to come up with a (CLUBSNAP ORGANISERS PACT AGREEMENT) that is generic for all the photoshoots and model shoots.... wouldnt that be an idea to beef up the Organisers status as a more professional entity...

    Let it be known, i dont think just ANYONE can be an organiser.... and if you want to be, maybe there should be a sub-forum for ORGNISERS only to discuss ways to implement and conduct such shoots. (It might sound a little over done - for a simple sunday shoot with 3 pretty girls) but in my view, conducting it with strict guidelines and professionalism really makes the whole CS organised shoot community look better.

    That's just about a cent worth i suppose. Good Luck friends!

    Last edited by ejunlow; 3rd April 2009 at 09:30 AM.
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  16. #76
    vince123123
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    Default Re: THREE models backing out of shoots within ONE week -.- Grrr.

    1. If models want to pick and choose their jobs, then it is their decision and lost opportunities for them. If they feel they are too good for certain type of work, that is again their decision. But I think this is a separate issue from aeroplane flying.

    2. I doubt that the organisers will come together, simply because all of them are competitors. Look at what happened to AMIP - a supposed coming together of modelling agencies. Some refused to join, others joined and later dropped out because the "rules" stifled their ability to undercut and compete. The same will probably apply. It is hard to form a cartel; especially a cartel that can be easily broken by the next new person who decides to be an organiser (unlike say, the high barriers of entry for a petrol station).

    3. I second DP on the too many models per shoot thing. Too bad the organisers decide to do it because it increases their $$$ per hour but I personally prefer 1 model per shoot. That way I join the shoots for that specific model, and don't have to shoot trash while waiting my turn with that model.

  17. #77
    vince123123
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    Default Re: THREE models backing out of shoots within ONE week -.- Grrr.

    The latest example in this string of pilots:

    http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showp...7&postcount=11

  18. #78
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    Default Re: THREE models backing out of shoots within ONE week -.- Grrr.

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    The latest example in this string of pilots:

    http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showp...7&postcount=11

    read that...but right now which airline is she flying? A380 or Dreamliner?

    Two different excuses probably in a span of a week...so which is which

  19. #79

    Default Re: THREE models backing out of shoots within ONE week -.- Grrr.

    Quote Originally Posted by CHARBY View Post
    glad melody brought this matter up...

    ...

    Dear X-organiser...as you know, two of my top local girls Estelle & Rachel haved modelled for a total of 13 yrs...they started off in this community too! First photographer that shoot Estelle is William Chua..........first photographer that shoot Rachel is Deadpoet!
    Now, that was 5 years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    The latest example in this string of pilots:

    http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showp...7&postcount=11
    I applaud Melody's action to be open and straight forward with what is happening behind the scene. No emotion, just the fact. Everything is much easier if everything is transparent.

    To follow up on Charby's and ejun's comments, granted that there are loads more photographers entering the fray, and as a result, we have witness an explosion of organizers and shoot being organized, I really don't care, if the shoot is paid, it's a job. You show up to work as agreed. If you don't, you get fired. How hard is that to understand.

    All the pilots are a disgrace. If organizers allow this, it's pathetic. If the photographers do not make our displeasure known and do something about it, we are stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by scandal599 View Post
    read that...but right now which airline is she flying? A380 or Dreamliner?

    Two different excuses probably in a span of a week...so which is which
    Does it matter?

    If you know mid April is exam period, then jsut don't agree on doing any shoot during that time!
    Last edited by Deadpoet; 3rd April 2009 at 10:30 AM.
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  20. #80

    Default Re: THREE models backing out of shoots within ONE week -.- Grrr.

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    The latest example in this string of pilots:

    http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showp...7&postcount=11
    Quote Originally Posted by scandal599 View Post
    read that...but right now which airline is she flying? A380 or Dreamliner?

    Two different excuses probably in a span of a week...so which is which
    I wondered if the Jurgen that was mentioned is Venom81 whose email is jurgen81@hotmail.com
    so I will PM him to read that post. I guess melody-love is keeping the thread open to give the model and Jurgen a chance to post their response so let's see.

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