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Thread: THREE models backing out of shoots within ONE week -.- Grrr.

  1. #41

    Default Re: THREE models backing out of shoots within ONE week -.- Grrr.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yoh View Post
    Perhaps this could be presented in better words?
    I thought the comment and choice of words were perfect. Why such rush to protect the models?

    Quote Originally Posted by maswu View Post
    Some of this model simply have no sense of professionalism
    I also think its due to the fact that most are freelancers and therefore no one to control them like an agency would...
    And contract does not necessarily work. Most of them are younger than 21 and contract may not be enforceable.

    The more I think about it, the more we need to have a public forum to air such grievances. We need names, we need the ability to identify the pilots.

    To Melody, would you consider naming names?

    On that note, I believe if we ever get to naming names for pilots (they can be models, photographers, mua or anyone involving in a shoot but went flying), we have to be extremely objective.

    An example (totally fictious):

    Jane Smith/JaneSmith (CS Nick), sms'ed to cancel shoot 7 hours before shoot. Shoot was scheduled for 9am, sms'ed arrived at 2am, and I picked it up at 6am. Reason given was pet hamster died and had been crying all day, eyes swollen and red, cannot shoot.

    We should leave out subject and emotive commentary and stick to the facts. Btw, not all models are members on CS, or active members.

    Just my thoughts.
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  2. #42

    Default Re: THREE models backing out of shoots within ONE week -.- Grrr.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godzilla Invades View Post
    Well.....choose wisely (which is hard) but most of this models are mostly party girls and late night girls. This set of girls are definately a 50/50. There is no way to tell if they are sincere (which is rare).
    Someone once asked me, why I work with the same group of models over and over again. Well, after a while, a trust develops. My regulars do not go piloting on me. That said, following up on Vince's comment that only 10% pilot on him, my experience is less than that with model whom I spent time to pick and choose. However, those that popped up now and then, that I ran into here in CS or in MM, or elsewhere, the piloting rate is 33% to 50%.
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  3. #43
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: THREE models backing out of shoots within ONE week -.- Grrr.

    Quote Originally Posted by Canonised View Post
    usually arrangement between models and organizer AND organizer and shooters are all done within 2 weeks ...... how to have written contracts? ...
    even in payment, I pay on the spot before I shoot .... and I usually confirm with the organizer 1 day before the shoot because I want to be 100% sure that I can make it
    if there is no slot, i will just go to shoot the bird and the bees ....
    har lo, models very good in cut and paste work, don't you know? why can not leh?

    moreover everything nowadays all are electronic liao, all are paperless liao, all using i banking liao, is "want or don't want only", not "can or not".
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  4. #44
    vince123123
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    Default Re: THREE models backing out of shoots within ONE week -.- Grrr.

    Hehe actually, to clarify, the 10% refer to late shows (from between 15min to 1 hr), the number of no-shows (true aeroplanes) are very very rare.

    I only remember one organised shoot where the model was late by 1 hr, and to me, that was already an extremely bad case.

    Perhaps times have changed nowadays.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadpoet View Post
    Someone once asked me, why I work with the same group of models over and over again. Well, after a while, a trust develops. My regulars do not go piloting on me. That said, following up on Vince's comment that only 10% pilot on him, my experience is less than that with model whom I spent time to pick and choose. However, those that popped up now and then, that I ran into here in CS or in MM, or elsewhere, the piloting rate is 33% to 50%.

  5. #45
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    Default Re: THREE models backing out of shoots within ONE week -.- Grrr.

    Hi DP, just an update, as of 1 March 2009, the minimum contracting age in Singapore has been lowered to 18 under the Civil Law (Ammendment) Act 2009.


    Also, in the modelling agency industry, models with unprofessional behaviour or bad attitude are named and information passed throughout industry by word of mouth or by email especially between agencies. It would do the organisers good to cooperate with each other and treat this as a positive sum game. As for photographers engaging such freelance models on a personal/private basis, they could do the same when they encounter unprofessional attitude/behaviour.

  6. #46

    Default Re: THREE models backing out of shoots within ONE week -.- Grrr.

    I do not take model shoot myself, so maybe I am less emotional/bias about the issue.

    Blacklisting is prone to abuse. Also, sometimes a dedicated model still have last minute problems that really cannot be avioded (valid reasons) but how can anyone tell the fakes from the truth?

    Probably a recommendation list is better, like someone commented in earlier post. This is very unlikely to be abuse (how to abuse by giving praise?), encourage the model and also maybe help the model to be more popular.

    Contracts are good in theory but if the model that had already been paid did not turn up, then how to recoup the money? As before maybe she had a very good valid excuse. In my encounter with people, I noticed that there are people who are very responsible and will carry on no matter what even if inconvenienced, and there are people who just can't be bother even if the inducement is good. As it is, organisers are already bog down with work and maybe sometimes not well renumerated, who would want to create more problem for themselves?
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  7. #47

    Default Re: THREE models backing out of shoots within ONE week -.- Grrr.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sion View Post
    What a waste of talent!
    depending on what type of apartment you are renting or buying .... maybe she may throw in some freebie mollershotting, with guarantee no aeroplane type .... theme can be Charby-style, Modelinn-style, Babylove-theme, with the ultimate package, the Bobman-theme ...
    all these from the experience learned from here ....
    where got waste of talent?
    always the Light, .... always.

  8. #48
    vince123123
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    Default Re: THREE models backing out of shoots within ONE week -.- Grrr.

    I'll like to add my views on some legal aspects since it seems that people here will benefit from some guidance:

    1. A "contract" is not as daunting as it seems. Lay people normally associate contracts with bombastic sounding terms, multiple pages, and significant time in drafting.

    Let me tell you that even someone who is very familiar with legal aspects (ie non-lay people), I do not bother with those types of contracts for daily or short termed transactions.

    What I merely do, is to record the important points in an email. It does not have to sound "contract-ey" - just have a recorded version in email saying what and what was agreed. It can be in English, Singlish or anything so long as it is clear what is agreed.

    Many lay people underestimate the enforceability of discussions and agreements made via email. Let me tell you that it is perfectly sound and valid.

    2. Under 21 - Let me first start with a minor issue that as far as I'm aware, under Singapore law, there has been no firm position on what a "minor" means, for the purposes of determining capacity to contract. It can be 18, 21 or some other age; but the legal authorities seem to lean towards 21 (although by far not conclusive)

    Whatever the age, the general position is that a minor is not capable of entering into a contract. HOWEVER, there are exceptions to this general position (aren't there always?), and one of them is that a minor can bind himself to a contract of service (ie a means of earning a livelihood).

    Although the legal text I've reviewed talks about a "contract of service" (which normally is distinguished from a contract for service), it is in my view, (and this is my view only based on a less than exhaustive research in this topic), possible to argue that contracting oneself as a model will fall under such an exception and hence, the model will still be liable for the things she agreed to.

  9. #49
    vince123123
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    Default Re: THREE models backing out of shoots within ONE week -.- Grrr.

    Very simple, in any blacklist, the model will be contacted to inform her of her name being mentioned, and she will have an opportunity to give her side of the story.

    And who says that recommendation lists cannot be abused? A model can register 10 fictitious accounts or ask her friends to all vote for her so she gets more jobs.

    Both can be abused, it is up to us (and the admins?) to manage and balance such abuses.

    Finally, contracts for services can be enforced in the Small Claims Tribunal.

    Quote Originally Posted by two200 View Post
    I do not take model shoot myself, so maybe I am less emotional/bias about the issue.

    Blacklisting is prone to abuse. Also, sometimes a dedicated model still have last minute problems that really cannot be avioded (valid reasons) but how can anyone tell the fakes from the truth?

    Probably a recommendation list is better, like someone commented in earlier post. This is very unlikely to be abuse (how to abuse by giving praise?), encourage the model and also maybe help the model to be more popular.

    Contracts are good in theory but if the model that had already been paid did not turn up, then how to recoup the money? As before maybe she had a very good valid excuse. In my encounter with people, I noticed that there are people who are very responsible and will carry on no matter what even if inconvenienced, and there are people who just can't be bother even if the inducement is good. As it is, organisers are already bog down with work and maybe sometimes not well renumerated, who would want to create more problem for themselves?

  10. #50
    vince123123
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    Default Re: THREE models backing out of shoots within ONE week -.- Grrr.

    I've looked at th amendment (honestly it was so low key that I didn't see it in any of the journals I read which updates on these things) - this is great news, finally Parliament has codified the legal age of capacity - this is welcome considering that the position was unclear
    for decades.

    Thanks for the update. This will supercede my comments earlier on legal capacity.

    Quote Originally Posted by weevil84 View Post
    Hi DP, just an update, as of 1 March 2009, the minimum contracting age in Singapore has been lowered to 18 under the Civil Law (Ammendment) Act 2009.


    Also, in the modelling agency industry, models with unprofessional behaviour or bad attitude are named and information passed throughout industry by word of mouth or by email especially between agencies. It would do the organisers good to cooperate with each other and treat this as a positive sum game. As for photographers engaging such freelance models on a personal/private basis, they could do the same when they encounter unprofessional attitude/behaviour.

  11. #51
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    Default Re: THREE models backing out of shoots within ONE week -.- Grrr.

    i think we singaporeans have a tendency to over-engineer something, and we spend too much time trying to come up with the "perfect" system. yes, there will be loopholes and negatives in all the ideas suggested. it's impossible to cover all grounds.

    can i suggest that we go with the "good-enough" philosophy? sometimes the simplest things work best.

    perhaps organisers can have a simple 3-strikes-and-you're-out! kind of system. you don't show for 3 times, you're never going to work with me (and by extension, this town) again.

    a simple feedback thread will work too. like what DP mentioned, just stick to the facts. you don't need mods in the thread - it will be self-policed. again, my favourite example of the FM forums B&S feedback. simple, straightforward, and it works.

    don't have to worry about "some models don't have CS account". purpose is to reward good models, and point out irresponsible ones. not to have a long debate over who's right and who's wrong.

    wow, what a load of americanisms. look what the media did to me! :lol:
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  12. #52

    Default Re: THREE models backing out of shoots within ONE week -.- Grrr.

    [quote=vince123123;4946274]Very simple, in any blacklist, the model will be contacted to inform her of her name being mentioned, and she will have an opportunity to give her side of the story.

    Problem I forsee is that the models mentioned may not even be aware that she had been blacklisted.

    And who says that recommendation lists cannot be abused? A model can register 10 fictitious accounts or ask her friends to all vote for her so she gets more jobs.

    Good point, but then if they are irresponsible, the will be found out in no time

    Both can be abused, it is up to us (and the admins?) to manage and balance such abuses.

    So we are back to square one, how to have a viable solution?

    Finally, contracts for services can be enforced in the Small Claims Tribunal
    Idea got, execution not!
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  13. #53

    Default Re: THREE models backing out of shoots within ONE week -.- Grrr.

    Must give moller a chance to correct herself mah. Like i get a warning from a post but i cannot edit to remove the undesired contetnts in the post. SOmemore mod lock the edit function like its there to repriment someone and not to protect the general public from undesired content by not removing the undesired content and leave it there for the world world to learn. i say ABCDEFG man

  14. #54
    vince123123
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    Default Re: THREE models backing out of shoots within ONE week -.- Grrr.

    Which is why I say that the models should be contacted to inform them of the mention.

    Even if not, then they will just be like any other services provider, such as Cathay or Alan or OP - does anyone really care about abuse for these shops? Why should models be treated any different?

    Quote Originally Posted by two200 View Post
    Very simple, in any blacklist, the model will be contacted to inform her of her name being mentioned, and she will have an opportunity to give her side of the story.

    Problem I forsee is that the models mentioned may not even be aware that she had been blacklisted.

    And who says that recommendation lists cannot be abused? A model can register 10 fictitious accounts or ask her friends to all vote for her so she gets more jobs.

    Good point, but then if they are irresponsible, the will be found out in no time

    Both can be abused, it is up to us (and the admins?) to manage and balance such abuses.

    So we are back to square one, how to have a viable solution?

    Finally, contracts for services can be enforced in the Small Claims Tribunal

  15. #55
    Senior Member denniskee's Avatar
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    Default Re: THREE models backing out of shoots within ONE week -.- Grrr.

    i dont understand why the org keep protecting the models? why not name them? what is ur reasons for not naming them in the starter post?
    photography makes one sees things from all angles.

  16. #56

    Default Re: THREE models backing out of shoots within ONE week -.- Grrr.

    May i suggest this?

    Implement a "compensation-----discount" system. Alongside a model registration system.

    Here's how it goes.

    All models have to register themselves with CS before they can begin modelling here. Maybe each with a registration fee of $50 bucks each year. Organisers may choose to absorb this charge on model's behalf. Yes, this leads to higher overheads, but it minimizes the potential loss organisers are going to incur should models fly aeroplane time after time.

    The money collected will be kept in a pool. Should any models back out, the compensation-discount system will take place.

    Models will have to pay 50% of their initially agreed payment to organisers. Organisers will then offer those participants whom have commited their time & money some form of discount. Maybe 10-20%....

    Yes, models may refuse to pay the amount. That's when the "pool" of registration fees comes in. Organisers may draw from that pool of $$ for compensation. However, there should oso be a penalty for models who refuses to pay up. These models will get their registration terminated for one year.

    IMHO, this will work as...

    Firstly, provided models are paying for the registration fee themselves, they will take their job here more seriously and think twice before flying that boeing or airbus. This is especially so for models who are new and part timers....

    Secondly, the compensation system will also deter full time models from flying that airplane as flying aeroplane means they have to take money out of their own pocket. Failure to abide by the compensation system means a one year termination of services in CS. That potentially means a loss of a huge chunk of potential income.

    Thirdly, the compensation---discount system will also ensure that both organisers n customers get a fair deal.

  17. #57
    Senior Member Sion's Avatar
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    Default Re: THREE models backing out of shoots within ONE week -.- Grrr.

    Quote Originally Posted by Canonised View Post
    depending on what type of apartment you are renting or buying .... maybe she may throw in some freebie mollershotting, with guarantee no aeroplane type .... theme can be Charby-style, Modelinn-style, Babylove-theme, with the ultimate package, the Bobman-theme ...
    all these from the experience learned from here ....
    where got waste of talent?
    So now go house hunting must also bring camera and reflector?

  18. #58
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    Default Re: THREE models backing out of shoots within ONE week -.- Grrr.

    Quote Originally Posted by evo-lution View Post
    May i suggest this?

    Implement a "compensation-----discount" system. Alongside a model registration system.

    Here's how it goes.

    All models have to register themselves with CS before they can begin modelling here. Maybe each with a registration fee of $50 bucks each year. Organisers may choose to absorb this charge on model's behalf. Yes, this leads to higher overheads, but it minimizes the potential loss organisers are going to incur should models fly aeroplane time after time.

    The money collected will be kept in a pool. Should any models back out, the compensation-discount system will take place.

    Models will have to pay 50% of their initially agreed payment to organisers. Organisers will then offer those participants whom have commited their time & money some form of discount. Maybe 10-20%....

    Yes, models may refuse to pay the amount. That's when the "pool" of registration fees comes in. Organisers may draw from that pool of $$ for compensation. However, there should oso be a penalty for models who refuses to pay up. These models will get their registration terminated for one year.

    IMHO, this will work as...

    Firstly, provided models are paying for the registration fee themselves, they will take their job here more seriously and think twice before flying that boeing or airbus. This is especially so for models who are new and part timers....

    Secondly, the compensation system will also deter full time models from flying that airplane as flying aeroplane means they have to take money out of their own pocket. Failure to abide by the compensation system means a one year termination of services in CS. That potentially means a loss of a huge chunk of potential income.

    Thirdly, the compensation---discount system will also ensure that both organisers n customers get a fair deal.
    Only in Utopia ok...

    Have to remember... CS and Organisers are not linked. We only provide a platform for Organisers to organise shoots from their model contacts.

    Unless there is an agency wanting to take it up, else its really hard to coordinate that portion.
    Last edited by Del_CtrlnoAlt; 2nd April 2009 at 04:34 PM.
    Logging Off. "You have 2,631 messages stored, of a total 400 allowed." don't PM me.

  19. #59
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    Default Re: THREE models backing out of shoots within ONE week -.- Grrr.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melody-Love View Post
    1. Chatting and getting closer to the models are of no use because apparently some of the models lives in my msn and contact list and we are friends. You can do anything about it when they say they have to withdraw due to blahblahblah. Usually if it's a solvable problem i'll help them with it but sometimes it's problems not within my control.

    2. It'll be difficult to hire models in the future if i demand compensation for withdrawing.

    3. Not all models withdraw 48 hours before the shoot. Some withdraw 10 hours before the shoot. Alot of them.



    I think they dont really care because they are not the one who are going to face the photographers and mess after this because im the one who's going to apologise to everyone. tsk.
    friends or not, have to be professional.

    for once a blue moon backing out last minute then the model should post her reason online for all to avoid implicating the organiser.
    have u seen the "light" yet?

  20. #60
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    Default Re: THREE models backing out of shoots within ONE week -.- Grrr.

    Quote Originally Posted by Del_CtrlnoAlt View Post
    Only in Utopia ok...

    Have to remember... CS and Organisers are not linked. We only provide a platform for Organisers to organise shoots from their model contacts.

    Unless there is an agency wanting to take it up, else its really hard to coordinate that portion.
    there are workable parts to Evolutions suggestions. if organisers are made to pay subscription, why not the models? both parties have their fingers in the money pie, it would be unfair for organisers.

    well, not directly linked (its in CS's forum afterall)...
    have u seen the "light" yet?

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