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Thread: Do you think this is fair or ethical?

  1. #61

    Default Re: Do you think this is fair or ethical?

    We learn from experience.

    I am not doubting DM, however we should hear from the other party before we come to a conclusion.

    Let's move on!

  2. #62

    Default Re: Do you think this is fair or ethical?

    hmmm.. now we heard both sides of the story, from my point of view, buyer has no rights to insist on buying the risky faulty lens since the repair cost is more than 150 than the stated initial 80 dollars difference. What's more the buyer knew the seller is not technically inclined but should not take advantage of this to hoot on repair cost. (Discount)

    The so call honorable deal has no blinding at all, let alone with no deposits. Buyer's action on the lens serial number is totally undesirable. IMHO, seller has his rights too.

    I had my case whereby the seller insisted on increasing the lens price after we met. I paid him though he didn't honor his words. So it's still two sides matter to close a deal. Sorry, that's my opinion. You have the rights to differ, so am I have to disagree too.

  3. #63

    Default Re: Do you think this is fair or ethical?

    Quote Originally Posted by tokrot View Post
    hmmm.. now we heard both sides of the story, from my point of view, buyer has no rights to insist on buying the risky faulty lens since the repair cost is more than 150 than the stated initial 80 dollars difference. What's more the buyer knew the seller is not technically inclined but should not take advantage of this to hoot on repair cost. (Discount)

    The so call honorable deal has no blinding at all, let alone with no deposits. Buyer's action on the lens serial number is totally undesirable. IMHO, seller has his rights too.

    I had my case whereby the seller insisted on increasing the lens price after we met. I paid him though he didn't honor his words. So it's still two sides matter to close a deal. Sorry, that's my opinion. You have the rights to differ, so am I have to disagree too.
    It will be good if the communication channel is clear. e.g. 'Please confirm the selling $$$ is $$$...' . If you do not hear from him. Forget it. If you want to view the item before buying, please state the condition.....
    I have on some occassions paid in advance and received the good in good order and only once when I rejected the good the seller did not refund me... frustrated of course!

  4. #64
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Reply to the Thread : Do you think this is fair or ethical?

    As a person trained to look out for inconsistencies and logical fallacies in stories, I have spotted one possible doubtful point in your story.

    The reason you said why you decided to no longer sell it off after you repaired it is because you can keep it as a back up lens. So, that also suggest that before repair, you cannot keep it as a back up lens.

    Before and after repair, the only thing which changed is the MFD issue being fixed, and because it has been fixed, suddenly, you decided you can keep it as a back up lens? That sounds awfully coincidental and may suggest (but of course, is by no means conclusive) that there is some prior knowledge of the fault.

    Also, closing your reply thread immediately after posting it, without giving DM a chance to respond/rebutt your points, doesn't speak well for you - and in fact, may speak volumes.

    People with nothing to fear usually dont want to stifle discussion. People who want to stifle discussion by closing of threads usually reason for being apprehensive at allowing discussion to continue. That is of course, merely a generalistic view, and you could have some good reason for closure (which perhaps is on you to explain).

    That said, it is good the mods have reopened the thread so that DM can further respond to the things you said he did/said/acted.

    Quote Originally Posted by shinchan1088 View Post
    I come across the Buyer name Dream Merchant accused me regarding the lens Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 EX DG. If he mentioned that I didn’t apologize about my final decision, I think he is twisting the fact.

    When we first met and he discovered the lens was having some focusing barrel problem, I immediately apologized to him that I wasn’t aware of it as this lens wasn’t my favorite and I seldom use it. He requested for a discount after the repair and I mentioned OK if it’s a small matter. It’s because he told me that the cost will be only around SGD 80. Initially he suggested the price stick with SGD 480 and he will “voluntarily” send it for repair but I have to bare all the cost. After the second thought, he asked me to go by myself.

    Honestly speaking, I just get my lens back couple days ago and I am still testing it. Dream Merchant contacted me last Friday and asked me regarding the lens and I told him that the repair actually cost me more than SGD 150 and ETHICALLY I would not want to sell my lens out before testing it and causing any buyer any problem again. Moreover, after the entire repair cost, I really don’t think it is worth for me to sell it off because I can keep it as a back up lens. Especially Dream Merchant insisted me to give him a discount as he claimed that this lens is an “unreliable product”. He even claimed that if he bought this lens, he is taking his RISK. I told him I won’t sell my lens for the previous price and I advise him to look for other better offer if he is not happy with the price and the quality of the lens.

    Since the first day we met, none of us has agreed on the date and confirm deal as he doesn’t promise to buy it after the repair. He just said he will consider it after I had done with the repair. Moreover, he didn’t even pay me any deposit to secure the price I first mentioned. When he contacted me 3 days ago regarding this lens, he was actually the one who SMS me with unpleasant tone and accused me for making him wait. And ONCE AGAIN, I wanted to clarify that he and I had not come across any agreement regarding the DEAL after repaired and I had never asked him to wait for this lens.

    I am sure a lot of you would like to know what was actually happening and as the party involved, I am here to tell you the story from my side. I hope you all will judge about it accordingly and to be fair, CS should let the SELLER rate the buyers as well if that is possible. I am actually very new to the forum and I had bought a lens and sold 2 through CS. I never come across any problem before like this one. And both my buyers even thank me for selling them quality lens with reasonable price. If a deal is causing a lot of LOST for you, I believe none of you would have proceeded it. I have closed this thread because I just want to share with you about the true story. There is nothing right or wrong to whom you support. I just hope Dream Merchant understands my situation. I would say SORRY again if this caused him so much trouble and I hope he can fine the lens he want as soon as possible.



    p/s: Sigma still produce this model, right? Was it difficult to get one in the market? If not, why some one would like to take his RISK to wait for an UNRELIABLE product to be fixed?

  5. #65
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    Default Re: Reply to the Thread : Do you think this is fair or ethical?

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    As a person trained to look out for inconsistencies and logical fallacies in stories, I have spotted one possible doubtful point in your story.

    The reason you said why you decided to no longer sell it off after you repaired it is because you can keep it as a back up lens. So, that also suggest that before repair, you cannot keep it as a back up lens.

    Before and after repair, the only thing which changed is the MFD issue being fixed, and because it has been fixed, suddenly, you decided you can keep it as a back up lens? That sounds awfully coincidental and may suggest (but of course, is by no means conclusive) that there is some prior knowledge of the fault.

    Also, closing your reply thread immediately after posting it, without giving DM a chance to respond/rebutt your points, doesn't speak well for you - and in fact, may speak volumes.

    People with nothing to fear usually dont want to stifle discussion. People who want to stifle discussion by closing of threads usually reason for being apprehensive at allowing discussion to continue. That is of course, merely a generalistic view, and you could have some good reason for closure (which perhaps is on you to explain).

    That said, it is good the mods have reopened the thread so that DM can further respond to the things you said he did/said/acted.
    I think because the repair costs were way higher than expected by both parties, and seller decides he won't be able to sell it if he wants to recoup the repair costs partly or wholly, he decides the next best thing is to keep it as a back up. As far as I see it, no sign of prior knowledge of faults, please be more careful in suspecting 'things'......or seeing things that is not there.

    Hong Sien

  6. #66

    Default Re: Do you think this is fair or ethical?

    Quote Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post
    Woaaaa.... now the seller is going to have a hard time selling....

    I'm not sure how the seller treated you. Was he rude r made you feel like you were being cheated?

    I think he has every right to change his mind about not selling you the lens at the same or cheaper price than b4. There was no written contract. Just verbal promise right? Maybe after he paid $ for the repairs, he felt heart pain and decided to change his mind by increasing the price?

    If he acted cocky and rude, then I understand your frustration and desire to shame him.

    But if he explained to you nicely or in a neutral manner, or even apologized for changing his mind, I'm not sure you have done the right thing in seeking revenge by revealing the details here.

    Anyway, good luck in your new search for the lens.
    I doubt. The question is at what price is he selling the lens?

  7. #67
    Senior Member Big Kahuna's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think this is fair or ethical?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dream Merchant View Post
    Because it's UNIQUELY CHINGAPORE!
    You watch too much Pirates of Carribean

  8. #68
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    Default Re: Do you think this is fair or ethical?

    But since the TS asked if it was ethical or not, I think he points to the 'promise' of the seller to sell it to him, after the repair, no matter how much the costs of repair.

    But the seller said there was no promise of the buyer to buy the lens after the repair, only that he will consider it then.

    Think there is no way for others to decide who is telling the truth.......could be some misunderstanding, in the words being used during the first meeting

    I would suggest to let the deal off, and treat it as a misunderstanding from both sides

    The seller can still try to sell it off, and the buyer can look for another

    Now we can discuss whether posting the serial no of the actual lens is ethical or not!

    HS

  9. #69
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Reply to the Thread : Do you think this is fair or ethical?

    Sure, that is entirely possible, in that case the reason given is not because he wnats to keep as a backup lens, but because after the repair, the price is no longer financially sound.

    That said, do you have any opinion on why the seller needs to repair the lens if he now doesn't want to sell it? He has been using it fine with the MFD issue all this while.

    Quote Originally Posted by hongsien View Post
    I think because the repair costs were way higher than expected by both parties, and seller decides he won't be able to sell it if he wants to recoup the repair costs partly or wholly, he decides the next best thing is to keep it as a back up. As far as I see it, no sign of prior knowledge of faults, please be more careful in suspecting 'things'......or seeing things that is not there.

    Hong Sien

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Reply to the Thread : Do you think this is fair or ethical?

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    Sure, that is entirely possible, in that case the reason given is not because he wnats to keep as a backup lens, but because after the repair, the price is no longer financially sound.

    That said, do you have any opinion on why the seller needs to repair the lens if he now doesn't want to sell it? He has been using it fine with the MFD issue all this while.
    Perhaps he hasn't been using it at MFD all the while, if MFD means Macro focusing distance?

    Common lah, the guy is a newbie, as Dream Merchant also acknowledges

    HS

  11. #71
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Reply to the Thread : Do you think this is fair or ethical?

    I guess you think he suddenly requires the lens to use MFD and that's why he got it repaired. Another factor of coincidence I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by hongsien View Post
    Perhaps he hasn't been using it at MFD all the while, if MFD means Macro focusing distance?

    Common lah, the guy is a newbie, as Dream Merchant also acknowledges

    HS

  12. #72
    Senior Member zac08's Avatar
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    Default Re: Reply to the Thread : Do you think this is fair or ethical?

    Quote Originally Posted by hongsien View Post
    Perhaps he hasn't been using it at MFD all the while, if MFD means Macro focusing distance?

    Common lah, the guy is a newbie, as Dream Merchant also acknowledges

    HS
    MFD, minimum focusing distance.
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  13. #73

    Default Re: Do you think this is fair or ethical?

    Quote Originally Posted by hongsien View Post
    Now we can discuss whether posting the serial no of the actual lens is ethical or not!
    To me, it quite obvious and clear for me for this incident. Need not discuss further about what ETHICAL or NOT. hahahaa


    Just read post #1 and #57, do individual summary then case closed, as simple as that.
    Dreams at Photoaid! Contact me, pls!

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Do you think this is fair or ethical?

    as there is no way to actually revisit what transpired that day between the seller & buyer, its neither fair to anyone to try pull sympathy votes, newbie & oldie alike.

    if even 1st hand (brand new) items do have ocassional lemons among them, what more of used items? being an oldie, "A RISK I AM TAKING ON" sounds rather odd. such a risk is not new, certainly this is not the first thread on this issue. in the end, any issue has to be settled between affected parties without the mob in tow.

    since no money was involved, what is the point going public with it? the B&S has been here a long time, if an oldie is not aware of the risk what more of who just joined. if what the TS wants is a better way/s to minimise such occurance, than a new thread in the FAQs and Feedback for gathering suggestions is the way forward.

    minus all the inane posts, Kopitiam style.
    have u seen the "light" yet?

  15. #75

    Default Re: Do you think this is fair or ethical?

    Please be assured that I will reply in due course.

    There's so much convolution and obfuscation that I need to go through it first.

    Thank you.

  16. #76

    Default Re: Reply to the Thread : Do you think this is fair or ethical?

    Quote Originally Posted by shinchan1088 View Post
    Honestly speaking, I just get my lens back couple days ago and I am still testing it. Dream Merchant contacted me last Friday and asked me regarding the lens and I told him that the repair actually cost me more than SGD 150 and ETHICALLY I would not want to sell my lens out before testing it and causing any buyer any problem again. Moreover, after the entire repair cost, I really don’t think it is worth for me to sell it off because I can keep it as a back up lens. Especially Dream Merchant insisted me to give him a discount as he claimed that this lens is an “unreliable product”. He even claimed that if he bought this lens, he is taking his RISK. I told him I won’t sell my lens for the previous price and I advise him to look for other better offer if he is not happy with the price and the quality of the lens.
    hi shinchan, i am not a person trained in anything except how to post on clubsnap, but i can read everything that you have posted, and i think you have explained pretty well why you wish to keep it as a backup lens.

    it is simple math, the amount of money you have put into the lens has suddenly risen, you don't think you can get a price that proves its value to you after the repair costs.. so you prefer to keep it. to be honest, there is nothing wrong with that , and to me, the untrained person, it is a very plausible story.

    this is really using my common sense.. but i might be wrong, sometimes common sense is wrong..


    anyways, this is an unhappy matter, unhappy matters often arise due to misunderstandings.. why splash all the unhappiness out in public? you only risk getting people taking sides, not all of them might have pure motives, some men just like to watch the world burn by complicating matters beyond the simple, simple truth on the surface..

    i suggest that you guys take it to pm, i understand the need to clarify in public due to some form of name or reputation to uphold, or personal pride. in fact, i think the fact that you have come out to clarify speaks volumes about your willingness to come to a peaceful conclusion.
    Last edited by night86mare; 31st March 2009 at 02:15 AM.

  17. #77
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    Default Re: Do you think this is fair or ethical?

    I had a trade with this seller for a lowepro bag few days ago, to me, the trade is successful and i feel the seller is a honest person and keep her promise, cause i was away for few days, but i had sent a sms to her for holding up the sale until i m back and she did. I even enjoy a discount from her for the deal. I just wondering why the seller being described like this in this thread.

    There is no point to keep arguing, it is unfair to both party, the seller or buyer themself will know what is actually going on during the deal, and no one had withnessed the said deal, nobody know what is the truth behind this. There is no point hearing from one side, sometimes, it is hardly to judge who is dishonour in the first place.

    To me, for a real deal, if there is no some kind of assurance like deposit from the buyer,that is not a deal.

    As for this case, i think the seller at least keep her promise, came out and meeting up the buyer. No one willing to let go their good when they feel that is being a loss to them at the value in their mind. At this point, the additional repair cost of 150 sure will be added on top of the total selling price. Therefore, for selling price of 480 and a repair cost of 150, it should be 630. Being selling at 550, there is already a discount of 80 applied.

    I think there is a protocol to follow when having a deal, this happen everywhere not only on this thread.
    Last edited by tresca; 31st March 2009 at 10:11 AM.

  18. #78

    Default Re: Do you think this is fair or ethical?

    I knew there would be differences of opinions, emotional responses and a lot of other things when I decided to post up.

    I do not generally like to get embroiled in these matters as usually, it's difficult to resolve, not that I was looking for a resolve, but to inform. More on this later.

    Since there is no log or recording of the verbal part of the transaction, anybody in the world can speculate and needless to say, it's a matter of 'I say, you say'.

    I have to however, say that I do not accept SC's reply as complete, wholly accurate or fair, because there are failings in the logic used besides the accusations, not to mention adding on of terms like 'a deposit' which was never even in the equation in the first place as a condition of agreement ...

    but it's no use going on. There will be no end to this.

    Both sides believes they are right, and the other party wronged them in some way or another.

    Despite the differences of opinions, and opportunistic scorn and humiliation which some people enjoy in life I suppose, ONE GOOD thing that I really hope comes from this is that members become more aware.

    While we all love meeting and dealing with nice and honest people, (and I sensed that I could trust SC, else why would I promise that I would still buy the lens after it has been repaired, if SC pays for the repairs and the lens can indeed be fully repaired? I even considered paying the agreed price of $480 and send the lens in myself saving SC the trouble, and claim the cost of repair later.) even nice people have different ideas or intepretations of what is fair or right, especially when there is a price to be paid, with or without regard to principle and fairness. I would opine that they genuinely feel that they do no worng, because in the absense of a set of standards of practise or guides, they apply the most basic human instinct - self-preservation.

    Be vigilent and try to have at least written records of any discussions and negotiations via PM, SMS or e-mail or chat. You will never know when you might need them, either as a reference of what you yourself promised, or what you should be expecting from a transaction.

    On the issue of compassion and as one learned member mentioned earlier, and in private from another compassionate member, emphaty - putting oneself in another's shoe, I can understand where SC is coming from because I have been trading online and in real life with people for a long time, most recently since 2006 via online avenues with traders from the US, Canada, Hong Kong, Australia and the UK.

    In all the inet avenues I trade on, there is a 'no tolerance' rule for any indiscretions, and very strict and enforced guidelines. In one forum, the guidelines are so strict that even a delay in communications is frowned upon, and in a dispute, basis for weighing decisions on the part of the moderators, and where co-operation from the moderators and with Federal as well as local authorities to resolve chreating cases is common, and works. To date, not only have I maintained a 100% positive feedback across all these avenues, but I have gone out of my way to ensure fairness and honesty in my trades. I am willing to divulge P&C information to a CS moderator or CS Admin to verify this.

    Putting myself in the seller's shoes ...

    I would do what I can to ensure that my item is in the best condition, or advertise it as is. But being human, yes, honest mistakes can be made, and if I agreed to sell an item which I said was working perfectly fine, but wasn't, and if the buyer still wants the item as agreed, it would be my responsibility to rectify the fault till the item fulfills the promised condition at my expense, or lower my price to include adequate compensation for rectifying the fault.

    It would be just be wrong if I try to force the cost of repair onto the buyer claiming all sorts of “loss”, “rights” and what I “deserve”.

    That is my principle. It is natural that we all have different principles.

    Having said that, let's close this since it appears that SC was not interested in contributing anything more by menas of discussion or replies to what members have shared other than one solitary hit-and-lock post, and hope that if CS members encounter disputes or feel that they have been treated unfairly or inconsiderately in a clasified trade, they would be willing to come forward and share their experience so that other members can be made aware.

    If any members have any evidence to offer, or a substantive opinion that would contribute positively to this thread, please approach a moderator to re-open this thread.

    Let's move on and apologies for the wall of text.

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