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Thread: Do you think this is fair or ethical?

  1. #41

    Default Re: Do you think this is fair or ethical?

    He has dishonored his words, so I think you are right to feel upset and express your disappointment here.

    But if he was apologetic or explained to you his change of mind, and you spill out the details in a desire for revenge or shame him, that's questionable.

    That's why I asked f he had been apologetic or acted cocky. It does affect how people look at you when you post this issue here.

    An analogy: Suppose your friend promised to help you coach your son for his exams. Last minute, he has something going on and changes his mind. Doesn't matter what it is. He has two choices here. First, tell you sorry, the session has to be canceled. Second, simply not turn up as if nothing happened.

    Scenario 1: He apologizes. But you are still not happy. You bad mouth him in front of his other friends.

    Scenario 2: He does not apologize. Simply does not turn up at all.

    In scenario 1, you have over-reacted. Scenario 2, people will likely sympathize with you and think your friend is in the wrong. But note that regardless of the 2 cases, he dishonored his words. Same action, but 2 different outcomes based on how your friend handled the situation.

    So you are shaming the seller here mainly cos he dishonored his words right? Never mind whether he apologized or not? It's more like out of revenge and also the bitter feeling thinking you will get the lens but in the end, you could not?

    Have you considered how much he paid for the repair and maybe it's a substantial sum which made him feel later he would like to sell for more? You mean he doesn't have this right just becoz he promised you so no matter what he got to sell it to you? Yes, he dishonored his words but does he have that right to apologize and tell you his reason for backing out? He might not have considered the costs involved before the repair.

    Just a thot... I'm not defending him.

  2. #42

    Default Re: Do you think this is fair or ethical?

    I know the claimed cost of repair.

    No apologies, but a firm stance oh seller's 'right'.

    There are differences between a personal favour and a business trade.

    I also knew of big time con people and kengs in the past who were always smiling and always very very apologetic. Does that change facts?
    Last edited by Dream Merchant; 28th March 2009 at 02:03 AM.

  3. #43

    Default Re: Do you think this is fair or ethical?

    the price was set at 480. any change from the agreed price must be agreed to by both the seller and the buyer. if the seller unilaterally increase the price, then the buyer has no obligation to buy. as to why the seller increase the price, watever his reason does not matter, as he has deemed to have broken the agreed arrangement, thus portraying himself has untrustworthy in the matter of keeping to the agreement.

    in DM's case, he pretty much told us this is what happened. so, naming him or his conduct as a caution to others is not wrong. look at it this way: ur lucky ur not in his shoes.
    おれのflickrださ

  4. #44

    Default Re: Do you think this is fair or ethical?

    Ok I've read your last post which you added later on.

    You mentioned about wanting to know from others if your interpretation of the situation is correct. I have shown you another aspect of the situation, that is, what could have happened from the seller's point of view.

    You mentioned about wanting to let others know the history of the lens. Yes, but is that the MAIN aim? What's the purpose if that is your sole reason? So that others won't buy a repaired equipment? But there are many cameras and lenses out there which have been used and serviced and sold in the B&S section. Are we to report specifically on every body and lens we know which has been repaired? I've never seen such a post b4 here.

    I can understand if the equipment has been stolen and it is to be made known to others. Legal issues, to help the rightful owner in possibly claiming back the stolen items, and apprehending the thief.

    But to let others know about the lens being repaired b4 is not quite a convincing main objective. To me, that is just an ostensible reason to hopefully make the buyer have difficulty selling the lens that you once wanted to buy but could not.

    Disclaimer: I'm not siding with that seller, neither am I flaming you. I'm just interpreting the situation based on what you have written, and in reply to your desire to seek opinions from members here.

  5. #45

    Default Re: Do you think this is fair or ethical?

    Thank you for sharing your opinion.

    I am in the opinion that a LOT more needs to be done in forums like ours to make trading in a more honest and enjoyable environment a norm, rather than an exclusive nugget.

    Looking at the increasing number of reports of what are basically dishonorable practises and downright discourtesies, it's up to us to step up to the plate and create an environment where people would think twice about flaking our members (us). No one else is helping us create a trading environment that is hoinest, healthy and a comfortable place to be.

    It that requires drastic or hard practises like shaming a dishonorable trader, so be it.

    A person who encounters a dishonorable trader and hides the facts is probably as much a party to the dishonor as the main culprit in my books.

    If you may recall, one very learned and wise man once said that unfortunbately, ours is a society that understands only two things: punishment and reward.

    Edit to add: Please let me state once again, how unpleasant and distasteful having to post this thread up has been for me, and how much negative energy it has imparted to me and those around me. If we don't start stepping up to the plate, who will?
    Last edited by Dream Merchant; 28th March 2009 at 02:23 AM.

  6. #46

    Default Re: Do you think this is fair or ethical?

    Quote Originally Posted by shiruikage View Post
    the price was set at 480. any change from the agreed price must be agreed to by both the seller and the buyer. if the seller unilaterally increase the price, then the buyer has no obligation to buy. as to why the seller increase the price, watever his reason does not matter, as he has deemed to have broken the agreed arrangement, thus portraying himself has untrustworthy in the matter of keeping to the agreement.

    in DM's case, he pretty much told us this is what happened. so, naming him or his conduct as a caution to others is not wrong. look at it this way: ur lucky ur not in his shoes.
    That's very unforgiving.

    In life we all make mistakes. If someone knocks you over, or crashes into your car and it's not your fault, sure that person is in the wrong. But can you bash him up or even kill him? Theoretically if right and wrong is like black and white, with only 2 tones, and to wrong means to have sinned forever, yes, you can kill him.

    But is that how life is to be?

    Ok whatever the reason the seller increased the price for doesn't mater right? Sure. That's why I asked: Did the seller sound apologetic? Did he explain himself well?

  7. #47

    Default Re: Do you think this is fair or ethical?

    Kiwi2, I don't know how much more clearly I can put this...

    Seller was not concerned nor did eeller go like "please forgive me, I'm sorry but could you help me with covering the cost of repair even though we had a previous agreement and I agreed to give you a further discount off $480? I really need the help bla bla bla".

    Seller was only concered about seller's pocket.

    PERIOD.

  8. #48

    Default Re: Do you think this is fair or ethical?

    Quote Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post
    That's very unforgiving.

    In life we all make mistakes. If someone knocks you over, or crashes into your car and it's not your fault, sure that person is in the wrong. But can you bash him up or even kill him? Theoretically if right and wrong is like black and white, with only 2 tones, and to wrong means to have sinned forever, yes, you can kill him.

    But is that how life is to be?

    Ok whatever the reason the seller increased the price for doesn't mater right? Sure. That's why I asked: Did the seller sound apologetic? Did he explain himself well?
    You are right.

    Our world (in SG) needs a lot more patience and compassion.

    Everybody and everything seems to be getting more bitchy and depressing and things seem to be exceberated by the recession.

    Compassion can, and is often abused.

  9. #49

    Default Re: Do you think this is fair or ethical?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dream Merchant View Post
    Thank you for sharing your opinion.

    I am in the opinion that a LOT more needs to be done in forums like ours to make trading in a more honest and enjoyable environment a norm, rather than an exclusive nugget.

    Looking at the increasing number of reports of what are basically dishonorable practises and downright discourtesies, it's up to us to step up to the plate and create an environment where people would think twice about flaking our members (us). No one else is helping us create a trading environment that is hoinest, healthy and a comfortable place to be.

    It that requires drastic or hard practises like shaming a dishonorable trader, so be it.

    A person who encounters a dishonorable trader and hides the facts is probably as much a party to the dishonor as the main culprit in my books.

    If you may recall, one very learned and wise man once said that unfortunbately, ours is a society that understands only two things: punishment and reward.

    Edit to add: Please let me state once again, how unpleasant and distasteful having to post this thread up has been for me, and how much negative energy it has imparted to me and those around me. If we don't start stepping up to the plate, who will?
    Whoever that "sage" is, there's nothing perfect about the punishment and reward system. It is based on a Skinnish behavioral system meted out on animals to make them behave. In our present society, this sort of system may have made us obey rules and get things running in a mechanical manner. But with it, forgiveness and social grace are gravely affected.

    Think about it: Why do people not want to give up seats? Cos it's none of my business to do so. I'm tired of adhering to "unbendable" rules and there's no fine involved. What do I care?

    Or why are our toilets dirty? Cos I won't be punished for dirtying it so it is ok. It's not my home toilet anyway. The list goes on....

    All right a bit OT up there.

    I still go back to the qualities of forgiveness and seeing from other's point of view. I'm not saying to be a saint and let others continually cheat you. By all means, list down shops or sellers who offend big time. But in your case, I'm not sure.

    You have not explicitly shared if the seller did apologize for his change of mind. And did he pretend to be uncontactable?

    Let me throw you another scenario: Suppose this seller lost his job just before he was supposed to sell you the lens. And he just got a baby recently. Money is tight and his wife is a homemaker. He needed to find every penny to make ends meet. And he told you he couldn't t sell you the lens anymore. Never mind whether he mentioned the reason or not, becoz according to you, accountability is important and this is a "business trade"; "personal favor" has no part to play here.

    How would you react? You will still shame him here right? Now consider, how if you were the guy and someone shamed you like this?

    Of course, this is only an analogy and you can argue that's not what is happening. But I'm only bringing up the fact that you see things as black and white, right and wrong, punishment and reward.

    Just curious... do you have a religion? Not that it will necessarily help, but it might affect the way you view such issues.

  10. #50

    Default Re: Do you think this is fair or ethical?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dream Merchant View Post
    Kiwi2, I don't know how much more clearly I can put this...

    Seller was not concerned nor did eeller go like "please forgive me, I'm sorry but could you help me with covering the cost of repair even though we had a previous agreement and I agreed to give you a further discount off $480? I really need the help bla bla bla".

    Seller was only concered about seller's pocket.

    PERIOD.
    Ok ok... Haiyah!!!! That's what I wanted to hear. Then you do have a case.

    I've been asking you this all along!!! But you said earlier being rude/cocky and dishonorable are 2 different issues. I totally disagree with your statement here as a human who thinks not by black and white but emotions also.

    To me, it does play a part how to treat that person. If I were you, and the seller apologized and told me the cost did cause him to sustain considerable "damage" to his pockets, and that he now decided he had to increase the price, I would totally understand. He had every right to do so and I had every right not to buy from him.

    But if he acted cocky, by saying "The lens price is now $550 and not $480. You want? If not, go elsewhere." It makes a heck of a difference in how I see him.

    Ok. You know best what is going on. Good luck. I gotta go Zzzz now.

  11. #51

    Default Re: Do you think this is fair or ethical?

    Our world needs more wider-viewed and compassionate people like you Kiwi2. I'm not being sarcastic. I want to be in your shoes as I am sure you have many happier instances in your life than I do this week.

    Seller is a young person, and is upgrading equipment, a 5D or 5D MkII IIRC and a 24-105L lens, which I am sure explains a lot.

    I did not set out to paint a picture of a devil, which was why I held back certain details which if I had earlier revealled, would have had a more negative bearing or impact on how others perceived the seller.

    Please allow me to re-state: seller was not apologetic, and made a very very clear stand on not losing out (therefore trying to force me to bear the cost and pay more for what must now surely be a higher risk item). Although not in as cocky a tone as you described above.

    Edit: I just read your post above, and was going to delete what I just shared because I set out to focus on the actual issue, but on second thought, why should I hide the unpleasant facts?
    Last edited by Dream Merchant; 28th March 2009 at 03:11 AM.

  12. #52

    Default Re: Do you think this is fair or ethical?

    Hi DM (and whoever this post might concern),

    I personally feel that there is no wrong in your actions to list out your experiences. It is (at least what I feel) public duty to inform other consumers about the history of this lens. This is what I would call raising public awareness. In fact, all potential buyers SHOULD check the history of the seller, equipment, etc. Easier said than done, but hey, would you invest hard-earned money without doing homework or prior research? The same logic applies.

    Granted, the seller wants to increase the price by $70 to help defray the repair costs on his side, which came out from his own pocket. I would say that's nothing wrong. However, what needs to be taken into account is the fact that the seller himself agreed to offer a discount to DM. Some may argue that as of now, we only have DM's words and no proof because nobody has seen the SMSes. But then again, if this was to be brought up into a court of law or any similar entities, the SMSes can be used as evidence.

    IF the seller had not agreed upon granting DM a discount or at least to keep the price at $480, the seller does have the right to hike up the price to $550. But then again, by making a verbal agreement (which I hope DM has in SMS form as well), he has already been bound by the contract and he should honour it.

    A contract can be verbal or written, and is a voluntary agreement between two parties. There are elements that must be present for a contract to be valid. I shall not go into that, but from DM's side of the story, I would think that all five necessary elements are present.

    As seen in this case, both DM and the seller have gone into the agreement for the purchase of the lens for $480. Although situations arose (mainly through misrepresentation), which would have vitiated or voided the contract, the seller had counter-offered new terms, which DM accepted, and so, theoretically, both of them are still bound to honour their respective duties.

    When the seller went back on his words to honour the contract on his part to sell the lens to DM for $480 or less, he (the seller) has breached the contract. Theoretically, if DM can substantiate his claims, he can file for damages against the seller.

    But I digressed. IMO, DM has the right to make this a public matter. Like I said, by doing what he did, IMO, DM has the intention of only a) raise public awareness about the lens and its history as a caveat-emptor, b) ask for public opinion about whether he was dishonoured, etc. and what he did was right? Of course, these are my personal opinions.

    P/S: I'm not a law student/practitioner. But I did take a slight bit of certain statures of local law (on a superficial level) as part of my curriculum in a media course. All aforementioned points are from what I remembered through my lessons (with some reference to notes), and are based solely on my own opinions.
    Trust me, I'm not so bad! | TangShooters

  13. #53

    Default Re: Do you think this is fair or ethical?

    perhaps CS's seller can have rating from buyers.
    Last edited by benleekc; 28th March 2009 at 04:41 AM.
    60D,Tamron17-50 f2.8, 430EXII

  14. #54
    Senior Member azul123's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think this is fair or ethical?

    It's hard to say who is right or wrong without hearing both sides, but generally and agreement is an agreement. I am sure if you want to name the seller.. from the mobile number you might try to search that, at least we can get to hear from both sides. So far it is one-sided.

    ../azul123

  15. #55

    Default Re: Do you think this is fair or ethical?

    DM, I guess you interpretation is right, when the item is not as promised, you have the right to reject, since you offered to wait if the seller hold the price, he seem to just latch on your offer, got it repaired and then trying his luck to recoup the cost of repair, this is quite common. Where we should question it's the way he handle the transaction which made you felt cheated.

    You have highlighted this in CS, warned the others, just let it go, until there is a better monitoring/feedback system in CS, such cases will continue to happen. No point getting worked up or get depressed by it, you have more important things to worry/work on.

    You got your answers, might you should consider locking this thread, else, you will felt you need to answer another person's accusation about the way you handle this case (being unfair to the seller).
    Fine print - Anything I posted is strictly my own point of view :)

  16. #56

    Default Re: Do you think this is fair or ethical?

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts SolBadGuy and Woofmy, and Azul.

    As mentioned in one of my posts, I won't think about this for more than one day.

    That one day has passed, I have gotten lots of feedback, and have informed fellow CSers to be careful.

    Let's be vigilent and even if it's unpleasant, do the right thing by stepping up to the plate and post bad experiences. Let's take care of ourselves and help each other, since at the moment, no one else will, and try to cultivate an environment where flakers, cheats and simply inconsiderate traders will think twice before pulling a fast one.

    Beat ragards,

    DM

  17. #57

    Default Reply to the Thread : Do you think this is fair or ethical?

    I come across the Buyer name Dream Merchant accused me regarding the lens Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 EX DG. If he mentioned that I didn’t apologize about my final decision, I think he is twisting the fact.

    When we first met and he discovered the lens was having some focusing barrel problem, I immediately apologized to him that I wasn’t aware of it as this lens wasn’t my favorite and I seldom use it. He requested for a discount after the repair and I mentioned OK if it’s a small matter. It’s because he told me that the cost will be only around SGD 80. Initially he suggested the price stick with SGD 480 and he will “voluntarily” send it for repair but I have to bare all the cost. After the second thought, he asked me to go by myself.

    Honestly speaking, I just get my lens back couple days ago and I am still testing it. Dream Merchant contacted me last Friday and asked me regarding the lens and I told him that the repair actually cost me more than SGD 150 and ETHICALLY I would not want to sell my lens out before testing it and causing any buyer any problem again. Moreover, after the entire repair cost, I really don’t think it is worth for me to sell it off because I can keep it as a back up lens. Especially Dream Merchant insisted me to give him a discount as he claimed that this lens is an “unreliable product”. He even claimed that if he bought this lens, he is taking his RISK. I told him I won’t sell my lens for the previous price and I advise him to look for other better offer if he is not happy with the price and the quality of the lens.

    Since the first day we met, none of us has agreed on the date and confirm deal as he doesn’t promise to buy it after the repair. He just said he will consider it after I had done with the repair. Moreover, he didn’t even pay me any deposit to secure the price I first mentioned. When he contacted me 3 days ago regarding this lens, he was actually the one who SMS me with unpleasant tone and accused me for making him wait. And ONCE AGAIN, I wanted to clarify that he and I had not come across any agreement regarding the DEAL after repaired and I had never asked him to wait for this lens.

    I am sure a lot of you would like to know what was actually happening and as the party involved, I am here to tell you the story from my side. I hope you all will judge about it accordingly and to be fair, CS should let the SELLER rate the buyers as well if that is possible. I am actually very new to the forum and I had bought a lens and sold 2 through CS. I never come across any problem before like this one. And both my buyers even thank me for selling them quality lens with reasonable price. If a deal is causing a lot of LOST for you, I believe none of you would have proceeded it. I have closed this thread because I just want to share with you about the true story. There is nothing right or wrong to whom you support. I just hope Dream Merchant understands my situation. I would say SORRY again if this caused him so much trouble and I hope he can fine the lens he want as soon as possible.



    p/s: Sigma still produce this model, right? Was it difficult to get one in the market? If not, why some one would like to take his RISK to wait for an UNRELIABLE product to be fixed?

  18. #58
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    Default Re: Do you think this is fair or ethical?

    I merged the seller's reply into this thread.
    As complexity rises, precise statements lose meaning and meaningful statements lose precision.

  19. #59
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    Default Re: Do you think this is fair or ethical?

    Re-openning thread by request of Dream Merchant.

    I urger both parties to settle this issue in a civil manner, and urge bystanders to consider the words from both sides before commenting.

    Thanks.
    As complexity rises, precise statements lose meaning and meaningful statements lose precision.

  20. #60

    Default Re: Reply to the Thread : Do you think this is fair or ethical?

    Quote Originally Posted by shinchan1088 View Post
    I come across the Buyer name Dream Merchant accused me regarding the lens Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 EX DG. If he mentioned that I didn’t apologize about my final decision, I think he is twisting the fact.

    When we first met and he discovered the lens was having some focusing barrel problem, I immediately apologized to him that I wasn’t aware of it as this lens wasn’t my favorite and I seldom use it. He requested for a discount after the repair and I mentioned OK if it’s a small matter. It’s because he told me that the cost will be only around SGD 80. Initially he suggested the price stick with SGD 480 and he will “voluntarily” send it for repair but I have to bare all the cost. After the second thought, he asked me to go by myself.

    Honestly speaking, I just get my lens back couple days ago and I am still testing it. Dream Merchant contacted me last Friday and asked me regarding the lens and I told him that the repair actually cost me more than SGD 150 and ETHICALLY I would not want to sell my lens out before testing it and causing any buyer any problem again. Moreover, after the entire repair cost, I really don’t think it is worth for me to sell it off because I can keep it as a back up lens. Especially Dream Merchant insisted me to give him a discount as he claimed that this lens is an “unreliable product”. He even claimed that if he bought this lens, he is taking his RISK. I told him I won’t sell my lens for the previous price and I advise him to look for other better offer if he is not happy with the price and the quality of the lens.

    Since the first day we met, none of us has agreed on the date and confirm deal as he doesn’t promise to buy it after the repair. He just said he will consider it after I had done with the repair. Moreover, he didn’t even pay me any deposit to secure the price I first mentioned. When he contacted me 3 days ago regarding this lens, he was actually the one who SMS me with unpleasant tone and accused me for making him wait. And ONCE AGAIN, I wanted to clarify that he and I had not come across any agreement regarding the DEAL after repaired and I had never asked him to wait for this lens.

    I am sure a lot of you would like to know what was actually happening and as the party involved, I am here to tell you the story from my side. I hope you all will judge about it accordingly and to be fair, CS should let the SELLER rate the buyers as well if that is possible. I am actually very new to the forum and I had bought a lens and sold 2 through CS. I never come across any problem before like this one. And both my buyers even thank me for selling them quality lens with reasonable price. If a deal is causing a lot of LOST for you, I believe none of you would have proceeded it. I have closed this thread because I just want to share with you about the true story. There is nothing right or wrong to whom you support. I just hope Dream Merchant understands my situation. I would say SORRY again if this caused him so much trouble and I hope he can fine the lens he want as soon as possible.



    p/s: Sigma still produce this model, right? Was it difficult to get one in the market? If not, why some one would like to take his RISK to wait for an UNRELIABLE product to be fixed?
    It's always good to have both sides of story and it make a clearer picture.

    Honestly, i think both should just move on and shoot more to make yourself happy. Need not dwell too much on this. Even die die want to "settle" this also privately will be good for both of you. If one insist, i am more happy to be one of the reader.

    I cry to my own mummy if these kind happen to me lor, which i believe i have kana my own fair share
    Dreams at Photoaid! Contact me, pls!

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