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Thread: Organizing Group Photoshoot

  1. #41

    Default Re: Organizing Group Photoshoot

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadpoet View Post
    Are you sure you fully understand what you are saying?

    First of all, you were arguing that, time based subscription is good because it forces organizers to organize more shoots per time period. If we go to pay as you go, then organizers will take too long to organize and therefore, there will be fewer shoots.

    Our current problem with mass number of CMI shoots being organized is exactly that. There are 12 weekends per 90 days. Cost is $195 per 90 days. The more shoots you organized, the cost per shoot is lower. If you organize 12 shoots, once a week, your cost is about $16.25 per shoot, less if you do it more then once a week. On the other hand, if you are only organized 1 shoot a month, then the cost is a prohibited $65 per shoot, and much higher if you do it less than once a month.

    Your argument is, we should not let those in to organize if they only want to organize only now and then, not on a full time level. Most of us photographers have a day job. Organizing takes a lot of time, which is scarce. By setting the cost hurdle so high, many who has good ideas but cannot commit the time every week, will merely give up organizing here on CS. Rest assure, if they want to organize, there are many other avenues, but CS is locked out because of cost.

    The risk is not the $65 per shoot cost per se, it can be factored into the cost. However, it is the fact that a time based subscription forces them to organize at least once a month to achieve a $65 cost. What if, after one paid for a subscription, after 2 months and 2 shoots, due to many unforeseen circumstance, no shoots were organized in the 3rd month, then suddenly the cost per shoot jumped to $97.50, or what if, after the first month, no time to organize anymore, the full cost of the $195 must be absorb by that one organized shoot.

    It does not make sense. ModelShooterz used to organize about once a month or a bit less. Many of the best organizers organized at the same frequency and less. The $196 is therefore a prohibited hurdle.

    This is what I propose. Reopen the pay as you go option. Charge a higher fee, say $50. An organizer will simply have to factor in the $50 when organizing, and not have to worry about how to amortize the remainder of the 90 days subscription. Right now, the organizer must load the entire $195 into the first shoot jsut to be on the safe side. That is prohibitive.

    Now, what were you talking about regarding model organizing themselves and the IR?? I thought models had been organizing themselves for a while. Now, the IR, I am really lost there.

    One more point, in responding to Darren’s post, that the time based subscription is to weed out the hit and run fly by night organizers. In some way, CS had been successful in that respect, but the consequences is simple, it forces organizers to organize more shoots and resulting in much lower quality shoots, and it barred photographers who want to promote the art from organize on an occasional basis.
    Bravo ..

  2. #42

    Default Re: Organizing Group Photoshoot

    Quote Originally Posted by shiruikage View Post
    risking flaming, allow me my say.

    darren could have a valid reason for the time based subscription. let's say CS allows pay as u organize format, and some fly by nite operator come and fleece ppl in just one shoot, wat would the cheated participants say about CS's vetting policy of letting in cheaters?

    granted it may not happen lar...but one never knows...

    time based subscription could be the cure for this...

    anotehr method that i would suggest is offer pay per use, but with deposits. ie: u pay a deposit to organize a shoot, after the shot, and no one complains of being cheated (to deter the cheaters), the deposits are refunded less the pay per use fees...would that help?
    Has CS ever vetted any of the organizer who registered and pay for the privillege to advertise on their forum? Should CS have to do so, is probably a better question. On both questions, I dare say, it's a resounding "NO".

    Caveat Emptor.

    And by the way, your deposits idea does not work. The administrantion process is prohibitively difficult. When there is a dispute between the organizer and the participant, are you asking CS to become the abritrator also.
    deadpoet
    my portfolio

  3. #43
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    Default Re: Organizing Group Photoshoot

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadpoet View Post
    Are you sure you fully understand what you are saying?

    First of all, you were arguing that, time based subscription is good because it forces organizers to organize more shoots per time period. If we go to pay as you go, then organizers will take too long to organize and therefore, there will be fewer shoots.

    Our current problem with mass number of CMI shoots being organized is exactly that. There are 12 weekends per 90 days. Cost is $195 per 90 days. The more shoots you organized, the cost per shoot is lower. If you organize 12 shoots, once a week, your cost is about $16.25 per shoot, less if you do it more then once a week. On the other hand, if you are only organized 1 shoot a month, then the cost is a prohibited $65 per shoot, and much higher if you do it less than once a month.

    Your argument is, we should not let those in to organize if they only want to organize only now and then, not on a full time level. Most of us photographers have a day job. Organizing takes a lot of time, which is scarce. By setting the cost hurdle so high, many who has good ideas but cannot commit the time every week, will merely give up organizing here on CS. Rest assure, if they want to organize, there are many other avenues, but CS is locked out because of cost.

    The risk is not the $65 per shoot cost per se, it can be factored into the cost. However, it is the fact that a time based subscription forces them to organize at least once a month to achieve a $65 cost. What if, after one paid for a subscription, after 2 months and 2 shoots, due to many unforeseen circumstance, no shoots were organized in the 3rd month, then suddenly the cost per shoot jumped to $97.50, or what if, after the first month, no time to organize anymore, the full cost of the $195 must be absorb by that one organized shoot.

    It does not make sense. ModelShooterz used to organize about once a month or a bit less. Many of the best organizers organized at the same frequency and less. The $196 is therefore a prohibited hurdle.

    This is what I propose. Reopen the pay as you go option. Charge a higher fee, say $50. An organizer will simply have to factor in the $50 when organizing, and not have to worry about how to amortize the remainder of the 90 days subscription. Right now, the organizer must load the entire $195 into the first shoot jsut to be on the safe side. That is prohibitive.

    Now, what were you talking about regarding model organizing themselves and the IR?? I thought models had been organizing themselves for a while. Now, the IR, I am really lost there.

    One more point, in responding to Darren’s post, that the time based subscription is to weed out the hit and run fly by night organizers. In some way, CS had been successful in that respect, but the consequences is simple, it forces organizers to organize more shoots and resulting in much lower quality shoots, and it barred photographers who want to promote the art from organize on an occasional basis.
    understand fully that unforeseen circumstances happen, that happen to us in life, not being insensitive to organisers. lets say organisers are on a pay per go which assures better survivability, photographers have lesser options, lesser competitive bargains. i feel the sentiments of the organisers but at the same time there is so many photographers wanting to join a shoot who might be deprived of such opportunities.

    i agree fully with the last paragraph, why not suggest a lower barrier of entry for a start, give everyone a fair chance and ample time, just like the offer for you. However, if many decide not to do it thereafter, will cs be dealing with many wannabes who come and go. there's extra admin job for the admins too. to me it serves a purpose of dedication to serve first. i cannot deny profit maximisation is still a principal objective but for a dedicated one, will you agree it will come later? i mean, who wants to operate at a loss next time will there be titles like part time organisers?

    theres definitely more to this organising thing than organisers alone, i think we as photographers got equally as much if not more homework to do to help ourselves and the organisers

  4. #44

    Default Re: Organizing Group Photoshoot

    Comparing Organiser A who organises 1 shoot every month for 12 months in one year, vs Organiser B who organises 1 shoot every week for 3 months (total still 12 shoots), and then stops organising when his account expires - I don't see how one is any more full-time or part-time than the other.

    Also, I fail to see the logic how having an Organiser A system will mean less Organisers overall; or less competitive bargains or the like. You'll just end up with more Organiser A types, and some Organiser B types - both have its own organisational model.

    Organiser B types comes and goes - hits fast and furious, whilst Organiser A types stays for longer, since he spreads his shoots out.

    I don't think there's any need to change rules "for a start". What we need is something that can last for the long haul. No use to lower bar for a start, then bring back things to the less than ideal situation in the future - we will be back at square one.

  5. #45

    Default Re: Organizing Group Photoshoot

    Quote Originally Posted by sprintist View Post
    understand fully that unforeseen circumstances happen, that happen to us in life, not being insensitive to organisers. lets say organisers are on a pay per go which assures better survivability, photographers have lesser options, lesser competitive bargains. i feel the sentiments of the organisers but at the same time there is so many photographers wanting to join a shoot who might be deprived of such opportunities.

    i agree fully with the last paragraph, why not suggest a lower barrier of entry for a start, give everyone a fair chance and ample time, just like the offer for you. However, if many decide not to do it thereafter, will cs be dealing with many wannabes who come and go. there's extra admin job for the admins too. to me it serves a purpose of dedication to serve first. i cannot deny profit maximisation is still a principal objective but for a dedicated one, will you agree it will come later? i mean, who wants to operate at a loss next time will there be titles like part time organisers?

    theres definitely more to this organising thing than organisers alone, i think we as photographers got equally as much if not more homework to do to help ourselves and the organisers
    I did not suggest a lower entry. I suggested that we need to have a system tht catered to both, those who subscribe on a 90 months basis, and those who pay as they go.

    At the end of the day, 2 observation. Since the adoption of the $195 / 90 day plan, we see an onslaught of organized shoot that really are clearly CMI. Many times, shoots are cancelled or altered because of insufficient participation. Most of these organizers are not doing this full time, and they cannot dedicate the time to organize a "good" shoot.

    Meanwhile, photographers with good ideas, will be barred, because no one in their right mind will pay $195 jsut to sign up as an organizer in order to organze 1 shoot. I won't. if and when I have a great idea for a shoot, I cannot see adding $195 to the cost, and therefore, I cannot and will not organize it through CS. I would love to, but the economic reality is a brutal.

    I have no idea where you actually stand, but, I believe CS and I are in agreement in many of the points. We do not like to see fly by night organizer polluting the forum. Where we more shoots, but I rather see more quality than quantity.

    At the end of the day, my opinion does not matter. Maybe our collective opinion might matter a bit. Either way, the current system, many great ideas and and potentially great organizers, will avoid CS, it's the money issue.
    deadpoet
    my portfolio

  6. #46
    ClubSNAP Admin Darren's Avatar
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    Default Re: Organizing Group Photoshoot

    Interesting to note that there is residual demand for a single-use subscription (at a tolerance level of between $40-50 from what I can read here).

    The qty-based subscription (eg $X for Y shoots) unfortunately is currently not implementable within the software that we are using, so let's not go down that path.

    We will consider re-instating the single-use subscription model for those occasional organisers and will advise in due course.

  7. #47

    Default Re: Organizing Group Photoshoot

    I think that the level of S$50 was bandied about simply as a discussion point. Whatever the cost, I think what is also important is the proportion towards the single use vs the three month.

    If it was S$50, then it will be whether the Administrators think that 1/4 the cost of a three month subscription is acceptable for a one time shoot.

    But whatever the cost, the additional option of a single use plan will open more possibilities, for better or worse.

  8. #48
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    Default Re: Organizing Group Photoshoot

    Quote Originally Posted by ModelShooterz View Post
    Comparing Organiser A who organises 1 shoot every month for 12 months in one year, vs Organiser B who organises 1 shoot every week for 3 months (total still 12 shoots), and then stops organising when his account expires - I don't see how one is any more full-time or part-time than the other.

    Also, I fail to see the logic how having an Organiser A system will mean less Organisers overall; or less competitive bargains or the like. You'll just end up with more Organiser A types, and some Organiser B types - both have its own organisational model.

    Organiser B types comes and goes - hits fast and furious, whilst Organiser A types stays for longer, since he spreads his shoots out.

    I don't think there's any need to change rules "for a start". What we need is something that can last for the long haul. No use to lower bar for a start, then bring back things to the less than ideal situation in the future - we will be back at square one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deadpoet View Post
    I did not suggest a lower entry. I suggested that we need to have a system tht catered to both, those who subscribe on a 90 months basis, and those who pay as they go.

    At the end of the day, 2 observation. Since the adoption of the $195 / 90 day plan, we see an onslaught of organized shoot that really are clearly CMI. Many times, shoots are cancelled or altered because of insufficient participation. Most of these organizers are not doing this full time, and they cannot dedicate the time to organize a "good" shoot.

    Meanwhile, photographers with good ideas, will be barred, because no one in their right mind will pay $195 jsut to sign up as an organizer in order to organze 1 shoot. I won't. if and when I have a great idea for a shoot, I cannot see adding $195 to the cost, and therefore, I cannot and will not organize it through CS. I would love to, but the economic reality is a brutal.

    I have no idea where you actually stand, but, I believe CS and I are in agreement in many of the points. We do not like to see fly by night organizer polluting the forum. Where we more shoots, but I rather see more quality than quantity.

    At the end of the day, my opinion does not matter. Maybe our collective opinion might matter a bit. Either way, the current system, many great ideas and and potentially great organizers, will avoid CS, it's the money issue.

    surely we all want quality and i think the open discussion would opened much perspectives for organisers and photographers alike.

    in time to come, the ultimate goal is still to see dedicated organisers smiling, photographers satisfied.

  9. #49
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    Default Re: Organizing Group Photoshoot

    Quote Originally Posted by ModelShooterz View Post
    I think that the level of S$50 was bandied about simply as a discussion point. Whatever the cost, I think what is also important is the proportion towards the single use vs the three month.

    If it was S$50, then it will be whether the Administrators think that 1/4 the cost of a three month subscription is acceptable for a one time shoot.

    But whatever the cost, the additional option of a single use plan will open more possibilities, for better or worse.
    reminds me of using pre paid card

  10. #50

    Default Re: Organizing Group Photoshoot

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadpoet View Post
    Meanwhile, photographers with good ideas, will be barred, because no one in their right mind will pay $195 jsut to sign up as an organizer in order to organze 1 shoot. I won't. if and when I have a great idea for a shoot, I cannot see adding $195 to the cost, and therefore, I cannot and will not organize it through CS. I would love to, but the economic reality is a brutal.
    yes...we are in dire need of more...diversified themes to shoot.
    おれのflickrださ

  11. #51

    Default Re: Organizing Group Photoshoot

    Quote Originally Posted by Darren View Post
    Interesting to note that there is residual demand for a single-use subscription (at a tolerance level of between $40-50 from what I can read here).

    The qty-based subscription (eg $X for Y shoots) unfortunately is currently not implementable within the software that we are using, so let's not go down that path.

    We will consider re-instating the single-use subscription model for those occasional organisers and will advise in due course.

    Darren, thank you for putting this issue back on the table, and hopefully, it will be re-instated. Thanks.
    deadpoet
    my portfolio

  12. #52

    Default Re: Organizing Group Photoshoot

    Quote Originally Posted by Darren View Post
    Interesting to note that there is residual demand for a single-use subscription (at a tolerance level of between $40-50 from what I can read here).

    The qty-based subscription (eg $X for Y shoots) unfortunately is currently not implementable within the software that we are using, so let's not go down that path.

    We will consider re-instating the single-use subscription model for those occasional organisers and will advise in due course.
    To be honest, single use subscription will be handy for me as well so that we can at least wait for potential models or imported models or whatsoever before organising the next shoot.

    For subscription, it might be a rush and at times, repeated models are used or perhaps just find 'some models' to fill up the slot and get on with the shoot, hopefully it sells?

    I am not sure if I am speaking correctly or wrong but personally I will prefer a single use subscription and wait on for better quality models before launching a shoot?


  13. #53

    Default Re: Organizing Group Photoshoot

    Been away for quite sometimes and interesting read over 2 threads.

    Firstly feedback on organisers not keeping their promises when delivery the photoshoot, hope this issue had been cleared after much feedback from photographers and their expectation for next better organised shoot. Co-ordination between models and photographers is not easy task, every single details has to be handle carefully to avoid misunderstanding and worst miscomm ..

    Then this thread, thanks to DP for sharing his experience as being an organiser for photoshoot. It will encourage better quality and variety for more organised photoshoot in future.
    AMPA * WPPI * J team

  14. #54

    Default Re: Organizing Group Photoshoot

    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT ONG View Post
    Been away for quite sometimes and interesting read over 2 threads.

    ...

    Then this thread, thanks to DP for sharing his experience as being an organiser for photoshoot. It will encourage better quality and variety for more organised photoshoot in future.
    Mr. Ong, where have you been. If you organise a shoot, I will join.
    deadpoet
    my portfolio

  15. #55

    Default Re: Organizing Group Photoshoot

    What is the verdict? Do we have single subscriptions back on?


  16. #56
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    Default Re: Organizing Group Photoshoot

    Quote Originally Posted by alinkinyourlife View Post
    What is the verdict? Do we have single subscriptions back on?

    upz...seems like a valid question for the admin to answer on.
    Opinions are like A-holes. Everyone's got one.

  17. #57
    Senior Member +evenstar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Organizing Group Photoshoot

    Quote Originally Posted by TheQuestion View Post
    upz...seems like a valid question for the admin to answer on.
    such questions should be posted in Feedbacks to get the admins to reply.
    eat. drink. shoot

  18. #58
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    Default Re: Organizing Group Photoshoot

    Quote Originally Posted by +evenstar View Post
    such questions should be posted in Feedbacks to get the admins to reply.
    true. but they have responded to questions here as well when its been posed.
    Opinions are like A-holes. Everyone's got one.

  19. #59
    Senior Member +evenstar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Organizing Group Photoshoot

    Quote Originally Posted by TheQuestion View Post
    true. but they have responded to questions here as well when its been posed.
    i don't think the admins have the time to go through every thread in every category to answer such questions from the forumers, when there's a dedicated forum for users to post questions.
    eat. drink. shoot

  20. #60
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    Default Re: Organizing Group Photoshoot

    Quote Originally Posted by +evenstar View Post
    i don't think the admins have the time to go through every thread in every category to answer such questions from the forumers, when there's a dedicated forum for users to post questions.
    you haven't seen this have you:
    http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showp...6&postcount=46
    Opinions are like A-holes. Everyone's got one.

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