Development concerns regarding grain and sharpness

bernards · 26th January 2009

I am having some problems getting some decently sharp pictures with details. I have gone thru a few rolls testing various lenses and films. I've tried DD-X and Diafine and fixed with Illford Rapid Fixer. Tested various agitation techniques and development times. I've used FP5+, TMax 400, Rollei Retro 400 and Lucky 100. I am currently using an Epson V700 for scans.

I seem to be getting very grainy scans that lack details and sharpness. The example below is one of the best I managed to get. Any B&W masters out there have some nuggets to share?

This image was shot with a Leica IIIf with a Nikkor 105 f2.5 (tested with a M8.) Shot on Lucky 100. Parameters should be f8 at 1/500.

Larger image via link on the image.

Xtol19 · 26th January 2009

Grain is an inherent part of the negative. Certain films have more grain, eg HP5+, Retro 400, FP4+ and certain films have less eg TMAX. Grain can be influenced by choice of developer, dilution, agitation, eg Diafine is quite grainy as it's designed for stand development.

A scanner should not affect grain. You should check your negs with a loupe to see the grain pattern of your negs. Then you can decide if your negs are too grainy. You should also understand the characteristics of developers. Read up.

csisfun · 27th January 2009

It is likely that if you are getting lots of visible grain with little sharpness/details on your scans, that if you got the sharpness and details that you wanted, your scans would be even grainier. The limiting factor here is probably your film and scanner. On one hand, your film is grainy, which exacerbates the problem of visible grain, and on the other the V700 cannot capture enough details.

Have you tried adjusting the spacers in the V700 film holder? It helps!

plsoong · 27th January 2009

Hi bernard,

aku is no master but here's what i tried and its also quite well known,

Diafine and Kodak TriX rated at iso 1000 is almost a fantasy marriage (because in real life, marriage is not that perfect at times

),

i've had no issues when trix rated at iso 400 with diafine too, but i guess u need to do abit of compensation.

in both instances, film grain is super fine.

TriX and D76 seems to be a very good companion too.

TriX and Rodinal gives very gritty images (to me), but sometimes i like it as i want to have that grainy rather "speck-ied" feel....so, i think you've to experiment more and just do a search on the net, there are heaps of people who've done enough experiments with grains, emulsions, developers to give u an idea what kinda grain size u want.

for me, i found out that Tmax only gives good yield when developed in Tmax developer. all other developers didn't work that well in my hands for some reason.

LKSC · 27th January 2009

Bernard,

Lucky 100 has no anti-halation layer and will always look comparatively soft.

None of the films you tried are especially sharp or grainless. If you want fine grain and sharp try Delta 100, TMAX 100, Pan F.

If your goal to develop and scan, instead of develop and print traditionally with an enlarger, then many additional variables come into
play because you are using a hybrid process and have to consider analog and digital issues.

Scanning is a hugely controversial topic. There are entire newsgroups dedicated to scanning. Traditional black and white films are notoriously difficult to scan well because of the Callier effect. In short, expect a degree of softening and an exaggeration of film grain.

IMHO, a good compromise for scanning traditional B/W film, short of high end drum scanning, is to scan with the Imacon 949/ X5. This particular model has a hybrid light source that is part diffuse and part collimated, a sort of best of both words, and so helps a bit with the Callier effect. Scans will be a bit soft but system resolution is high enough that most of the details will be captured.

If you want smooth scans from film with less hassle, consider the chromogenic films, XP2 or 400CN. They have dye clouds, no silver and less issues with scanning, but they don't have the character or look of traditional B/W films.

bernards · 28th January 2009

Thanks a million. I need some time to research all the fine points posted and experiment some more. I just finished another roll of Delta 400 in DDX. it's far from my fantasies.

A sample of what I have in mind (or close).

bernards · 1st February 2009

Jackpot. I developed my first roll with HC-110 in dilution B today. Grain and sharpness are all within my expectations of 400 film.

26th January 2009	#1
bernards Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 884	Development concerns regarding grain and sharpness I am having some problems getting some decently sharp pictures with details. I have gone thru a few rolls testing various lenses and films. I've tried DD-X and Diafine and fixed with Illford Rapid Fixer. Tested various agitation techniques and development times. I've used FP5+, TMax 400, Rollei Retro 400 and Lucky 100. I am currently using an Epson V700 for scans. I seem to be getting very grainy scans that lack details and sharpness. The example below is one of the best I managed to get. Any B&W masters out there have some nuggets to share? This image was shot with a Leica IIIf with a Nikkor 105 f2.5 (tested with a M8.) Shot on Lucky 100. Parameters should be f8 at 1/500. Larger image via link on the image.

26th January 2009	#2
Xtol19 Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 265	Re: Development concerns regarding grain and sharpness Grain is an inherent part of the negative. Certain films have more grain, eg HP5+, Retro 400, FP4+ and certain films have less eg TMAX. Grain can be influenced by choice of developer, dilution, agitation, eg Diafine is quite grainy as it's designed for stand development. A scanner should not affect grain. You should check your negs with a loupe to see the grain pattern of your negs. Then you can decide if your negs are too grainy. You should also understand the characteristics of developers. Read up.

27th January 2009	#3
csisfun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 550	Re: Development concerns regarding grain and sharpness It is likely that if you are getting lots of visible grain with little sharpness/details on your scans, that if you got the sharpness and details that you wanted, your scans would be even grainier. The limiting factor here is probably your film and scanner. On one hand, your film is grainy, which exacerbates the problem of visible grain, and on the other the V700 cannot capture enough details. Have you tried adjusting the spacers in the V700 film holder? It helps!

27th January 2009	#4
plsoong Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,658	Re: Development concerns regarding grain and sharpness Hi bernard, aku is no master but here's what i tried and its also quite well known, Diafine and Kodak TriX rated at iso 1000 is almost a fantasy marriage (because in real life, marriage is not that perfect at times), i've had no issues when trix rated at iso 400 with diafine too, but i guess u need to do abit of compensation. in both instances, film grain is super fine. TriX and D76 seems to be a very good companion too. TriX and Rodinal gives very gritty images (to me), but sometimes i like it as i want to have that grainy rather "speck-ied" feel....so, i think you've to experiment more and just do a search on the net, there are heaps of people who've done enough experiments with grains, emulsions, developers to give u an idea what kinda grain size u want. for me, i found out that Tmax only gives good yield when developed in Tmax developer. all other developers didn't work that well in my hands for some reason.

27th January 2009	#5
LKSC Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 206	Re: Development concerns regarding grain and sharpness Bernard, Lucky 100 has no anti-halation layer and will always look comparatively soft. None of the films you tried are especially sharp or grainless. If you want fine grain and sharp try Delta 100, TMAX 100, Pan F. If your goal to develop and scan, instead of develop and print traditionally with an enlarger, then many additional variables come into play because you are using a hybrid process and have to consider analog and digital issues. Scanning is a hugely controversial topic. There are entire newsgroups dedicated to scanning. Traditional black and white films are notoriously difficult to scan well because of the Callier effect. In short, expect a degree of softening and an exaggeration of film grain. IMHO, a good compromise for scanning traditional B/W film, short of high end drum scanning, is to scan with the Imacon 949/ X5. This particular model has a hybrid light source that is part diffuse and part collimated, a sort of best of both words, and so helps a bit with the Callier effect. Scans will be a bit soft but system resolution is high enough that most of the details will be captured. If you want smooth scans from film with less hassle, consider the chromogenic films, XP2 or 400CN. They have dye clouds, no silver and less issues with scanning, but they don't have the character or look of traditional B/W films.

28th January 2009	#6
bernards Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 884	Re: Development concerns regarding grain and sharpness Thanks a million. I need some time to research all the fine points posted and experiment some more. I just finished another roll of Delta 400 in DDX. it's far from my fantasies. A sample of what I have in mind (or close).

1st February 2009	#7
bernards Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 884	Re: Development concerns regarding grain and sharpness Jackpot. I developed my first roll with HC-110 in dilution B today. Grain and sharpness are all within my expectations of 400 film.