Which MF?

wiseguy · 30th September 2003

Hey guys!!

I'm a newbie to MF-in fact with only 1 day of knowledge, but already find it fascinating.

I'm considering a waist level finder type MF camera, entry level to start with.

I need some pointers from u experts out there: comparing seagull 109 or 107, Rolleicord or equivalent(as in price range).

Dont intend to spend much for a start. Or should i go straight to Hassey 50x.?
Anyone has gd pix taken with seagull/rolleicord to show?

Thx & rgds.

chyeo · 1st October 2003

Seagull TLR: Don't get the 4A-xxx series, the crank type. Heard too many cases of crank problems. Get the 4B-1 (the one I using and pic of it is my avatar). Very good and sharp. Cost $195 only. If you want to see my slides from my Seagull, PM me.

Rolleicord TLR: No doubt the best TLRs out there. But get ready to pay >$700 for one that is mint. Also, get those that have Carl Zeiss lenses and not Schneider lenses. CZ ones are better. You can go Hotshot in The RiverWalk to have a look (look for Joe).

Hasselblad: Very very good. But, get ready to pay a lot if you are getting accessories and more lenses. Price range for basic set: $1000-$2500, depending on model.

Freed · 1st October 2003

Hi chyeo,

Where did you get ur 4B-1 for $195? Thanks

chyeo · 1st October 2003

Originally Posted by Freed

Hi chyeo,

Where did you get ur 4B-1 for $195? Thanks

John 3:16 @ Funan level 3. They need to order from supplier so depends on whether supplier have stock.

kex · 1st October 2003

Originally Posted by chyeo

Seagull TLR: Don't get the 4A-xxx series, the crank type. Heard too many cases of crank problems. Get the 4B-1 (the one I using and pic of it is my avatar). Very good and sharp. Cost $195 only. If you want to see my slides from my Seagull, PM me.

Rolleicord TLR: No doubt the best TLRs out there. But get ready to pay >$700 for one that is mint. Also, get those that have Carl Zeiss lenses and not Schneider lenses. CZ ones are better. You can go Hotshot in The RiverWalk to have a look (look for Joe).

Hasselblad: Very very good. But, get ready to pay a lot if you are getting accessories and more lenses. Price range for basic set: $1000-$2500, depending on model.

hi chyeo,

Care to explain why CZ lens are better than schneider ones ?What diff did u mange to see from the results of the 2 lens ?

Frankly,i can't see any diff from the results my mamiya and rollei produce.

Wiseguy,
TLR is a great way to start into MF if u can get used to the WLF,IMO u won't go wrong with any brand.
I heard from bing(CSer)he got his rolleiflex for $400,u might wanna use that price as a benchmark.
i would adivse u to shoot slides on MF to really see the diff,or if u choose to use color film,the diff is not much if u only print 4R size..

regards

1st October 2003

Originally Posted by chyeo

Rolleicord TLR: No doubt the best TLRs out there. But get ready to pay >$700 for one that is mint. Also, get those that have Carl Zeiss lenses and not Schneider lenses. CZ ones are better.

AFAIK, there is NO Carl Zeiss lens (ie. Tessar 75mm/3.5) used for Rolliecord! All are Schneider Xenar 75mm/3.5 lens which is identical in optical design to the Tessar lens (ie. 4 elements in 3 groups) commonly found in a Rolleiflex T. By the way, this is the lens that the Chinese copy and used in Seagull TLR (the so-called 4E version). Same goes for the Yashica and Minolta TLR's. All of them copied this design.

The tessar/xenar lens is well known to be soft wide open, but stoped down to f8 or 11, it is pin sharp.

Having said that, a copy is a copy. So, don't expect a seagull to outperform a vintage rolleicord or Rolleiflex T (of course, we are talking about a clean lens here.)

BTW, Hotshot has good range of rolleiflex TLR. Conditions vary considerably. Price wise, I wouldn't say good, but surely more reasonable than the other few shops.

chyeo · 1st October 2003

Originally Posted by Nescafe

AFAIK, there is NO Carl Zeiss lens (ie. Tessar 75mm/3.5) used for Rolliecord! All are Schneider Xenar 75mm/3.5 lens which is identical in optical design to the Tessar lens (ie. 4 elements in 3 groups) commonly found in a Rolleiflex T. By the way, this is the lens that the Chinese copy and used in Seagull TLR (the so-called 4E version). Same goes for the Yashica and Minolta TLR's. All of them copied this design.

The tessar/xenar lens is well known to be soft wide open, but stoped down to f8 or 11, it is pin sharp.

Having said that, a copy is a copy. So, don't expect a seagull to outperform a vintage rolleicord or Rolleiflex T (of course, we are talking about a clean lens here.)

BTW, Hotshot has good range of rolleiflex TLR. Conditions vary considerably. Price wise, I wouldn't say good, but surely more reasonable than the other few shops.

I swear I seen Carl Zeiss lenses on Rollei TLR, but forgot whether is Rolleiflex or Rolleicord (what's the diff between these 2 anyway?)

I was told even lenses with slight fungus can produce great results (that's how good Rolleicord TLRs are) and I have seen the outputs myself.

Hotshot has a great range of Rollei products, and holds many models of Rolleicord TLR. You can go check it out. I will getting one myself from Joe soon.

1st October 2003

Originally Posted by chyeo

I swear I seen Carl Zeiss lenses on Rollei TLR, but forgot whether is Rolleiflex or Rolleicord (what's the diff between these 2 anyway?)

No need to "swear" lah!! TLR only wah

If memory serves me right:

Rolleicord - xenar 75/3.5 (optically same as Tessar)
Rolleiflex T - mostly CZ Tessar 75/3.5
Rolleiflex Automat - CZ Tessar 75/3.5

(BTW, all the above are low-end Rolleiflex TLR, in ascending order.)

Rolleiflex 3.5 (model E, E2, F) - either Xenotar 75/3.5 lens or CZ Planar75/3.5 lens. Optically of different design. with Planar having a better reputation but many swear by xenotar lens.

Rolleiflex 2.8 (model C, D, E, F,G) - either xenotar 80/2.8 or planar 80/2.8 lens. Top of the whole range. Great reputation for both lenses.

Rollei itself considers both xenotar and planar as equal. Users experience are subjective and not conclusive... till this day

I have owned/used most if not all of them and my personal favourite is a late Rolleiflex 3.5F Planar for B&W and a Rolleiflex E2 with xenotar 2.8 for color works. Used but never like rolleicord (light, cheap, with good result but seems to be designed for left-hander IMO). 2.8G is still available new but to me, it is based on rolleiflex T rather than F models. Great lens but the feel of rolleiflex F is gone. (same applies for the newly released 2.8FX - available new for about USD2000.)

chyeo · 1st October 2003

Originally Posted by Nescafe

No need to "swear" lah!! TLR only wah

If memory serves me right:

Rolleicord - xenar 75/3.5 (optically same as Tessar)
Rolleiflex T - mostly CZ Tessar 75/3.5
Rolleiflex Automat - CZ Tessar 75/3.5

(BTW, all the above are low-end Rolleiflex TLR, in ascending order.)

Rolleiflex 3.5 (model E, E2, F) - either Xenotar 75/3.5 lens or CZ Planar75/3.5 lens. Optically of different design. with Planar having a better reputation but many swear by xenotar lens.

Rolleiflex 2.8 (model C, D, E, F,G) - either xenotar 80/2.8 or planar 80/2.8 lens. Top of the whole range. Great reputation for both lenses.

Rollei itself considers both xenotar and planar as equal. Users experience are subjective and not conclusive... till this day

I have owned/used most if not all of them and my personal favourite is a late Rolleiflex 3.5F Planar for B&W and a Rolleiflex E2 with xenotar 2.8 for color works. Used but never like rolleicord (light, cheap, with good result but seems to be designed for left-hander IMO). 2.8G is still available new but to me, it is based on rolleiflex T rather than F models. Great lens but the feel of rolleiflex F is gone. (same applies for the newly released 2.8FX - available new for about USD2000.)

Thanks for the info man. BTW, how much a Rolleiflex T cost 2nd hand now for mint lens? Interested to get that as an upgrade to my "Hai-Ou"

1st October 2003

A clean Rolleiflex T with mint glass should be around $600 to $700, max. For anything higher than that, you might as well get a rolleiflex 3.5.

jamesong · 2nd October 2003

I have one nice TLR Rolleiflex for sale. Bought for S$500 but willing to let go at S$450 for new MF user. Iwill be going o/seas from 3rd Oct to 8th Oct, if interested,can view when I am back. I am not desperate to sell, no obligations if you want to view and handle it.Happy shooting.
James Song.

chyeo · 2nd October 2003

Originally Posted by jamesong

I have one nice TLR Rolleiflex for sale. Bought for S$500 but willing to let go at S$450 for new MF user. Iwill be going o/seas from 3rd Oct to 8th Oct, if interested,can view when I am back. I am not desperate to sell, no obligations if you want to view and handle it.Happy shooting.
James Song.

How's the condition and metering?

jamesong · 2nd October 2003

This Rolleiflex's condition is very nice and not being abused, the model is Automat Type4 with Carl Zeiss lens Tessar 1:3.5 f7.5cm. without any fungus.There is no meter for this model.It produced very sharp and beautiful pictures.
James Song.

chyeo · 3rd October 2003

Originally Posted by jamesong

This Rolleiflex's condition is very nice and not being abused, the model is Automat Type4 with Carl Zeiss lens Tessar 1:3.5 f7.5cm. without any fungus.There is no meter for this model.It produced very sharp and beautiful pictures.
James Song.

Thanks. I'm looking for one that has metering. Which models have metering?

3rd October 2003

Only rolleiflex F series (3.5 or 2.8) and the GX have coupled-light meter. But these are high end (read EX) models.

Rolleiflex T, or older Rolleiflex C, D, E have optional uncoupled light meters. Due to the age however, don't expect great metering accuracy from these vintage (with the exception of that of GX meter, which is TTL and highly accurate. But GX costs a bomb

)

Well, that's the pain/fun part of using TLR (if you are used to it, guesstimation might work just fine, for B&W shoots especially.)

lualua · 3rd October 2003

The old rolleicords 1, 2 does have carl zeiss lenses. The 3 element carl zeiss jena/triotar lenses. But personally, I'd prefer the later ones with the 4 element xenar. There are much better in all aspects.

wiseguy · 6th October 2003

Thk you guys for sharing your knowledge and providing inputs!

For sure, I will get a TLR pretty soon.....still checking out the various sources

wildswan · 6th October 2003

consider a hasselblad. carl zeiss lens. and you can even rent some of the lens and accessories from shiriro if you do want to buy them.

dreamseeker · 7th October 2003

Hi wiseguy,

Make sure you can get some sort of money back guarantee if possible. I have seen some very nice TLRs with out of focus lens/ misalign lens. Don't forget that what you see during focusing may not be what you get.

wildswan · 9th October 2003

wiseguy,
agree with dreamseeker. you can arrange with the seller for a trial shoot to assess if the lens are aligned.

30th September 2003	#1
wiseguy Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 222	Which MF? Hey guys!! I'm a newbie to MF-in fact with only 1 day of knowledge, but already find it fascinating. I'm considering a waist level finder type MF camera, entry level to start with. I need some pointers from u experts out there: comparing seagull 109 or 107, Rolleicord or equivalent(as in price range). Dont intend to spend much for a start. Or should i go straight to Hassey 50x.? Anyone has gd pix taken with seagull/rolleicord to show? Thx & rgds.

6th October 2003	#17
wiseguy Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 222	Which MF? Thk you guys for sharing your knowledge and providing inputs! For sure, I will get a TLR pretty soon.....still checking out the various sources

6th October 2003	#18
wildswan Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: jurong west Posts: 72	why not buy a hasselblad consider a hasselblad. carl zeiss lens. and you can even rent some of the lens and accessories from shiriro if you do want to buy them.

9th October 2003	#20
wildswan Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: jurong west Posts: 72	Tlr wiseguy, agree with dreamseeker. you can arrange with the seller for a trial shoot to assess if the lens are aligned.

1st October 2003	#2
chyeo Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Yishun Posts: 2,563	Seagull TLR: Don't get the 4A-xxx series, the crank type. Heard too many cases of crank problems. Get the 4B-1 (the one I using and pic of it is my avatar). Very good and sharp. Cost $195 only. If you want to see my slides from my Seagull, PM me. Rolleicord TLR: No doubt the best TLRs out there. But get ready to pay >$700 for one that is mint. Also, get those that have Carl Zeiss lenses and not Schneider lenses. CZ ones are better. You can go Hotshot in The RiverWalk to have a look (look for Joe). Hasselblad: Very very good. But, get ready to pay a lot if you are getting accessories and more lenses. Price range for basic set: $1000-$2500, depending on model.

1st October 2003	#3
Freed Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Northern Singapore Posts: 303	Hi chyeo, Where did you get ur 4B-1 for $195? Thanks

1st October 2003	#10
Nescafe Guests Posts: n/a	A clean Rolleiflex T with mint glass should be around $600 to $700, max. For anything higher than that, you might as well get a rolleiflex 3.5.

2nd October 2003	#11
jamesong Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Singapore Posts: 311	I have one nice TLR Rolleiflex for sale. Bought for S$500 but willing to let go at S$450 for new MF user. Iwill be going o/seas from 3rd Oct to 8th Oct, if interested,can view when I am back. I am not desperate to sell, no obligations if you want to view and handle it.Happy shooting. James Song.

3rd October 2003	#15
Nescafe Guests Posts: n/a	Only rolleiflex F series (3.5 or 2.8) and the GX have coupled-light meter. But these are high end (read EX) models. Rolleiflex T, or older Rolleiflex C, D, E have optional uncoupled light meters. Due to the age however, don't expect great metering accuracy from these vintage (with the exception of that of GX meter, which is TTL and highly accurate. But GX costs a bomb ) Well, that's the pain/fun part of using TLR (if you are used to it, guesstimation might work just fine, for B&W shoots especially.)

3rd October 2003	#16
lualua Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: underneath singapore Posts: 130	The old rolleicords 1, 2 does have carl zeiss lenses. The 3 element carl zeiss jena/triotar lenses. But personally, I'd prefer the later ones with the 4 element xenar. There are much better in all aspects.

7th October 2003	#19
dreamseeker Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Singapore Posts: 354	Hi wiseguy, Make sure you can get some sort of money back guarantee if possible. I have seen some very nice TLRs with out of focus lens/ misalign lens. Don't forget that what you see during focusing may not be what you get.