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Thread: FZriends Thread (FZ18 & FZ28 users and ex-users group - part II)

  1. #721

    Default Re: FZriends Thread (FZ18 & FZ28 users and ex-users group - part II)

    Quote Originally Posted by skyguy View Post
    i doubt there will be newer model of FZ... fz18 come out at like 2006 when i was in poly year 2... got my fz18 on 2008... and after a few month fz28 came out... -_-... so my guess is tat the next fz should be 2010... another reason why not this year is becoz of the economic crisis, so bad that they didn't even setup a booth during the IT show...

    i guess i will be sticking very close to my fz18 for the time being.
    Hi there skyguy, thanks for your comment. After reading it, I had fixed my target on just getting the FZ28 model. Main reason, the lens quality and ease of use in the camera's software.

    In fact, yesterday, I was @ Best Denki store, Parkway branch, then while I was looking at the Panny FZ28 camera, suddenly, 1 sales guy came over & told me the camera's going for $399 only!! (No more free memory cards, as really special offer day)
    After looking thru with my wife, I bought it!! Finally! Very happy & excited!

    The sales guy told me, they have only 1 last set left (after I bought my set), so anyone out there who is interested, do rush down...

  2. #722

    Default Re: FZriends Thread (FZ18 & FZ28 users and ex-users group - part II)

    guys anyone out there know what a 1 year old Fz28 with spare batt and car charger would be worth not used all that much also a tcon17 and the pana adaptor to suit the fz28 i have both looking to get rid of them as ive went dslr

  3. #723

    Default Re: FZriends Thread (FZ18 & FZ28 users and ex-users group - part II)

    What~!

    $399 for first hand FZ28?
    Looking for Photographers? | My Portfolio
    http://www.photoera.uni.cc/ | http://folio.navlem.com/

  4. #724

    Default Re: FZriends Thread (FZ18 & FZ28 users and ex-users group - part II)

    wow... $399 is damn cheap... lowest i have ever seen... anyway tcon17 and adapter u can try to sell here... to yhw probaly... as for fz28, i'm not sure what price u should sell...
    ztphotography
    Nikon D90 | Nikon D600 | Canon ixus 120IS

  5. #725

    Default Re: FZriends Thread (FZ18 & FZ28 users and ex-users group - part II)

    Clunk just sold his full set of of FZ 28 n items @ $450. i believe or was it $400.
    ??

    That range may be good to start of with

  6. #726

    Default Re: FZriends Thread (FZ18 & FZ28 users and ex-users group - part II)

    Haha, thanks for some of the kind words Wabbit, its good to meet someone who can take an argument with an objective stand and not feel offended. Would throughly enjoy this discussion.

    Though I must say, the red color was tad too striking!

    Quote Originally Posted by Wabbit View Post
    ...


    I like the term "gadget-chasers". Good one Omre. This is just my opinion, but I do believe that all or most consumers are "gadget-chasers", the only difference is financial accessibility, or to put it blantly, disposable income. As for logical reasoning, and prioritizing of needs, people have a tendancy of self justification if disposble income facilitates. There is a difference between "needs" and wants", but if "wants" can be facilitated financially, the line in-between can be a tad blurry. Consumerism at work.

    Let's avoid the moral dilemma of this discourse. For as Jesus loves you... He loves me too . Peace Bro!
    I fully, totally, absolutely agree there! It's sad but true, many consumers are "gadget-chasers", particularly accurate is the "tendency of self-justification". In psychology we term this as 'self-serving biases', which is unfortunately human nature unless consciously rectified. I must admit that sometimes, even I find myself exaggerating a strength of the camera I have, and after taking a step back, realize that these small differences are not too significant. The typical setting would be Navlem and I comparing Canon vs Sony... Haha.

    The thing about financial accessibility is something I didn't consider in detail too, I'll come back to that later.

    ...

    It will be interesting if we part-take in a social experiment, and start a thread on "G1 or FZ28" or "G1 or Canon", just for example, and gather the responses. We may just see facets of our arguments presented by others. At the end of the day, values are perceived, and always multi-faceted.
    I can only agree here to a small extent. I personally believe that this will not work. Yes, we will get multi-faceted opinions and it is probably the only minimal cost and reasonable test we can do. But my opinion of opinions is that opinions can never become facts without statistical testing (Very paradoxical!). At most, we can construct several hypotheses from these opinions, but it is difficult and costly to conduct a good statistical inferential test to prove these points.

    This is the same problem with many review sites too. While some have attempted to be as objective as possible, I have not seen a site that acknowledges random errors due to small sample. For instance, most camera models are only tested with one copy of that camera, and each trial is probably only tested less than 3 times? While many don't report, but I don't believe they'd do a good one: for instance testing 20 sets of the same model, each trial done at least 5 times, which amounts to about 100 data-points for a good statistical analysis. It is probably too time and $$ costly for the amateur hobbyist or even the commercial sectors. Because of this, some reviews are awfully misleading, and often over-exaggerate small differences.


    ...
    ...
    ... all the rest
    To sum it all up, I feel that we're actually agreeing from two different perspectives. The way I see it, your point of view is trying to exposit how Panasonic might be able to exploit the consumer market, despite potentially overlooking the points about their technical weaknesses. Whereas my point of view seems to be directed at the fact that, Panasonic's 4/3 system is not a wise system to step into at this moment, due to the lack of their lenses and sensor superiority, and thus to be a good system, Panasonic should develop their lenses.

    Where both our views meet is due to the fact that most average consumers out there will not see the cost-vs-value being all the technical details than the slightly more 'hardcore amateur' people can see. Perhaps I should not even use cost-vs-value as some serious amateurs there are willing to spend on irrational buys - buying something only slightly better, but few times the price. And secondly, Panasonic is not definitely after being a good system, but being a profitable system, potentially sad but true.

    I believe this is where your point about financial accessilibity really shows. However, I still feel that rational buying should not be simply about price-points, but cost-vs-benefit. This is where I will make one last disagreement against what you mentioned about entry level vs semi-pro cameras.

    Just for convenience sake we'll re-iterate this example using the same Canon cameras mentioned above, but the argument applies through all system. You mentioned that due to the price-point, Canon 40D should be categorized as a entry level. You see, if we go by this point of view, we would have rated also that the new entry level Canon 500D become a semi-pro. If i'm not mistaken, it retails about only ~$150 dollars less than the current price of a semi-pro 50D. Trends have shown that for most electronics, their prices drop about 25% (correct me if I am wrong) approximately 3 to 6 months after launch.

    That example was a little longer than I expected, but the point I'm trying to put across is, we should not categorize things, or even buy them based on simply price-point vs personal disposable income. I personally feel that doing so is rather uninformed or otherwise irrational. Even if someone is with tons of disposable income, it is still possible to get the best cost vs benefit out of your purchases. Again with the same example, why should anyone buy not buy a more "bang for bucks" semi-pro compared to a over-the-top priced latest model? Unless that individual get [mis-]persuaded by the salesman of course .

    Once again, thanks for your time and effort Wabbit!
    Looking for Canon 100mm F2 USM :)

  7. #727

    Default Re: FZriends Thread (FZ18 & FZ28 users and ex-users group - part II)

    Quote Originally Posted by stitan2005 View Post
    Hi there skyguy, thanks for your comment. After reading it, I had fixed my target on just getting the FZ28 model. Main reason, the lens quality and ease of use in the camera's software.

    In fact, yesterday, I was @ Best Denki store, Parkway branch, then while I was looking at the Panny FZ28 camera, suddenly, 1 sales guy came over & told me the camera's going for $399 only!! (No more free memory cards, as really special offer day)
    After looking thru with my wife, I bought it!! Finally! Very happy & excited!

    The sales guy told me, they have only 1 last set left (after I bought my set), so anyone out there who is interested, do rush down...
    Did it come with Warranty? There is also a possibility that it is an ex-display set... both cases which I personally wouldn't mind either. The memory cards are [relatively] dirt cheap now anyways. Its a pretty good buy I'd say, hope you enjoy your camera!

    Previously Courts was selling the LX3 (display set) at 368 or so I believe. And that was only like 2 to 3 months after LX3 was launched.
    Looking for Canon 100mm F2 USM :)

  8. #728

    Default Re: FZriends Thread (FZ18 & FZ28 users and ex-users group - part II)

    as im in australia is it worth advertising on here to send overseas or just stick it on ebay would $500au be to much to ask with all setup including tcon17 and adaptor and 1 filter

  9. #729

    Default Re: FZriends Thread (FZ18 & FZ28 users and ex-users group - part II)

    Quote Originally Posted by shane33 View Post
    as im in australia is it worth advertising on here to send overseas or just stick it on ebay would $500au be to much to ask with all setup including tcon17 and adaptor and 1 filter
    Hi Shane, from what I know, Aus tends to have sky high prices for consumer electronics, particularly computers, cellphones and cameras. You might want to do a comparison, I generally find it cheaper to ship in from Hong Kong or US (occassionally). Also, are we looking at an FZ28? Its very odd to have it packaged with a TCON 17, unless its 2nd hand. Check that its not a fake since Ebay has quite a bit of craftily packaged sales.

    I don't think clubsnappers will ship overseas, its just not the culture here, but you can try your luck in anycase.
    Looking for Canon 100mm F2 USM :)

  10. #730

    Default Re: FZriends Thread (FZ18 & FZ28 users and ex-users group - part II)

    i guess ombre got the message abit wrongly... shane want to sell the camera (fz28 and tcon belongs to him)

    for me, i find myself to lazy to deal with all this complicated oversea shopping stuff... best to sell it locally.. but if u have to do it through ebay etc... u have to find someway to prove to them its all ORIGINAL, sort of like need them to trust u with the price
    ztphotography
    Nikon D90 | Nikon D600 | Canon ixus 120IS

  11. #731
    Member Clunk's Avatar
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    Default Re: FZriends Thread (FZ18 & FZ28 users and ex-users group - part II)

    Quote Originally Posted by coolzephyr View Post
    Hahah im looking forward to meet clunk and amy, ombre and skyguy too! maybe we shld arrange a suitable day. clunk when are u leaving singapore for darwin?
    Hi Miss Cool, just got back from Genting, that is why not in contact for last few days. Amy and I return to Darwin on 14th July. Looking forward to meeting you guys. Name a date and time and we will be there with bells on.

    By the way I sold my FZ 28 with all the adapters and filters (mostly bought from Skyguy) except the Raynox DCR250 for $490
    Last edited by Clunk; 30th June 2009 at 08:33 PM.
    Ex-FZ 28 Sony a330 SAM 3.5-5.6/18-55 SAM 4-5.6/55-200 DCR250

  12. #732

    Default Re: FZriends Thread (FZ18 & FZ28 users and ex-users group - part II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Clunk View Post
    Hi Miss Cool, just got back from Genting, that is why not in contact for last few days. Amy and I return to Darwin on 14th July. Looking forward to meeting you guys. Name a date and time and we will be there with bells on.

    By the way I sold my FZ 28 with all the adapters and filters (mostly bought from Skyguy) except the Raynox DCR250 for $490
    great price... i hope i could sold mine at that price...haha

    ok, as for the meet up, i will only be free for tml... thursday to sunday is work work...
    as for next week the schedule for work is not yet out... but weekend might be busy
    ok some simple pic to share





    last pic taken by handphone, anybody care to explain how 2 incompatible person should get married? lol
    Last edited by skyguy; 30th June 2009 at 09:33 PM.
    ztphotography
    Nikon D90 | Nikon D600 | Canon ixus 120IS

  13. #733

    Default Re: FZriends Thread (FZ18 & FZ28 users and ex-users group - part II)

    Quote Originally Posted by ombre View Post
    Though I must say, the red color was tad too striking!
    Alright, back to black.

    This is the same problem with many review sites too. While some have attempted to be as objective as possible, I have not seen a site that acknowledges random errors due to small sample. For instance, most camera models are only tested with one copy of that camera, and each trial is probably only tested less than 3 times? While many don't report, but I don't believe they'd do a good one: for instance testing 20 sets of the same model, each trial done at least 5 times, which amounts to about 100 data-points for a good statistical analysis. It is probably too time and $$ costly for the amateur hobbyist or even the commercial sectors. Because of this, some reviews are awfully misleading, and often over-exaggerate small differences.
    I totally agree with you. The sample size is not significant. At most these tests are qualitative in nature. Whatever the agenda of these reviews, it remains an avenue for point of reference, and ultimately, it is up to the reader to practise critical thinking and due deligence.

    I believe this is where your point about financial accessilibity really shows. However, I still feel that rational buying should not be simply about price-points, but cost-vs-benefit. This is where I will make one last disagreement against what you mentioned about entry level vs semi-pro cameras.
    Depends very much on the person's price tolerance within the cost-vs-benefit parameter, and again, back to financial accessibility.

    Just for convenience sake we'll re-iterate this example using the same Canon cameras mentioned above, but the argument applies through all system. You mentioned that due to the price-point, Canon 40D should be categorized as a entry level. You see, if we go by this point of view, we would have rated also that the new entry level Canon 500D become a semi-pro. If i'm not mistaken, it retails about only ~$150 dollars less than the current price of a semi-pro 50D. Trends have shown that for most electronics, their prices drop about 25% (correct me if I am wrong) approximately 3 to 6 months after launch.
    "Entry Level" in my arguments stems from accessibility, not in terms of product or feature set. Hence, price point affecting the accessibility of a desired product or feature set.

    That example was a little longer than I expected, but the point I'm trying to put across is, we should not categorize things, or even buy them based on simply price-point vs personal disposable income. I personally feel that doing so is rather uninformed or otherwise irrational. Even if someone is with tons of disposable income, it is still possible to get the best cost vs benefit out of your purchases. Again with the same example, why should anyone buy not buy a more "bang for bucks" semi-pro compared to a over-the-top priced latest model? Unless that individual get [mis-]persuaded by the salesman of course .
    I think there's a misunderstanding... . Let's look at it from a consumer's perspective. Disposal income determines "budget" or the person's price tolerance. Price tolerance determines the set of available products in accordance to the accessible price points. The consumer in turn has options, which he would excercise judgement in accordance to what you mentioned, cost vs benifits (rational or irrational). Consequently, if a 40D or 50D is accessible to him, and if he deems the 50D to be a better camera than the 500D, the resolution is obvious.

    I think the assumption of price point determining product positioning, in relation to feature set (entry level, semi pro, pro), lead to a misunderstanding. My arguments was in terms of accessibility. For example, if the price of a 40D or 50D drops significantly to the price of a new entry level camera, it is still a semi-pro camera, but at an "entry-levels price". Therefore, a semi-pro camera is now accessible at an entry level price.

    After reading through the posts again, I think you are absolutely right when you stated that in general, we are saying the same things, but from different points of view.

    In conclusion, we disagree to disagree... or agree to agree... or disagree... or is it agree to.... mmmmmm... you get the gist.

    Thanks Omre!
    Last edited by Wabbit; 30th June 2009 at 09:45 PM.

  14. #734

    Default Re: FZriends Thread (FZ18 & FZ28 users and ex-users group - part II)

    Quote Originally Posted by stitan2005 View Post
    ...
    $399?!?!? That is a fantastic deal. I thought I had a good deal...

    Congrats for acquiring your new toy. I'm enjoying mine tremendously, and wish you loads of fun with your FZ28 too.

  15. #735

    Default Re: FZriends Thread (FZ18 & FZ28 users and ex-users group - part II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wabbit View Post

    In conclusion, we disagree to disagree... or agree to agree... or disagree... or is it agree to.... mmmmmm... you get the gist.
    Mm, thats right, perhaps all except one:

    I totally agree with you. The sample size is not significant. At most these tests are qualitative in nature. Whatever the agenda of these reviews, it remains an avenue for point of reference, and ultimately, it is up to the reader to practise critical thinking and due diligence.
    1) I certainly would not expect most readers, especially your average consumer to practise critical thinking on a test-report. Especially one that claim's to be objectively written, not many are trained in statistics you know, even if they are, this may not be where they apply it.

    2) Qualitative tests don't need a significant sample size? What good is a qualitative but possibly error rigged test? Sample size serves a very important role in tests, to eliminate random errors, which ultimately increase statistical confidence.

    I once heard someone share with me this statement, there are 3 main types of lies in this world:

    a) Untruths (classic lie)
    b) Fallacies (false-truths, half-truths)
    c) Statistics

    One of the main reasons why many science-trained professionals will frown badly on the commercial sector is probably due to the two main reasons above. This applies more to other products out there, not so for cameras, yet. There are so many tests out there that are really biased, and talking about small sample... it is a lot worse when you eliminate the unfavorable sample. Some of these flaws are astonishing. And the biggest flaw sometimes is simply not to reveal the flaws. If reading a science paper, all methodological procedures and data are laid out, before a conclusion is made, and openly acknowledges critique. Well, can't say the same for product testing, you get one-liners which are sometimes vague and misleading. Some of these flawed commercial tests even use the name of science... for instance "Dermatologically tested".


    But of course, most consumers don't care that they're only getting half of the truth, or will they if they find out? Is this 'facade' ethical?


    A little expansion: Cute is that you sometimes get 'scientists' conducting these extremely qualitative (+ very biased) tests that can even prove to you that smoking doesn't in any way cause lung cancer. Same with any other companies trying to fight gas emissions, toxic wastes.
    Looking for Canon 100mm F2 USM :)

  16. #736

    Default Re: FZriends Thread (FZ18 & FZ28 users and ex-users group - part II)

    Hi Shane, maybe you can try other sites' forums like photography-on-the-net (POTN) or dpreview. Mostly users from either UK or US, and they're more open to shipping second hand products, perhaps there is also an australian forum that I am not aware of?. Skyguy is right, Singaporean clubsnappers are usually rather suspicious of online dealings, especially since they have the convenience not to risk it. Otherwise you can always sell it on Ebay, I think the system works fine.
    Looking for Canon 100mm F2 USM :)

  17. #737

    Default Re: FZriends Thread (FZ18 & FZ28 users and ex-users group - part II)

    *~Last Minute Mini Outing~*

    Date : 01 July 2009 (Wednesday)
    Time : 12nn
    Venue : City Hall MRT Station

    List of people going

    1. Navlem (Me)
    2. Ombre
    3. Clunk
    4. Skyguy
    5.

    Please add in your name if you are interested.
    Looking for Photographers? | My Portfolio
    http://www.photoera.uni.cc/ | http://folio.navlem.com/

  18. #738

    Default Re: FZriends Thread (FZ18 & FZ28 users and ex-users group - part II)

    Quote Originally Posted by ombre View Post
    ....
    Have you seen the movie "Man of the Year"? There's a poignant quote which I find immensely apt.

    It goes like this:

    Eddie Langston: TV scares me. It makes everything seem credible.

    Hemmings: Why is that so bad?

    Eddie Langston: If everything seems credible then nothing seems credible. You know, TV puts everybody in those boxes, side-by-side. On one side, there's this certifiable lunatic who says the Holocaust never happened. And next to him is this noted, honored historian who knows all about the Holocaust. And now, there they sit, side-by-side, they look like equals! Everything they say seems to be credible. And so, as it goes on, nothing seems credible anymore! We just stopped listening!
    I guess we can go on discussing, and I think we are slowly but surely, veering towards a philosophical discourse, if we do not thread lightly. In fact, we might already have, and I might become irrelevant, and get dispose from the thread... ... kidding. You won't.

    In conclusion, I value your frank opinions. You are very firm in your beliefs, which is good. And I do enjoy this... till the point that... urrhh hmmm... someone is complaining that I am spending too much time on the internet.

    "No Deeeaar... I'm not surfing for porn!"

    Sorry for that little distraction....

    If chance will have it, I hope that in the near future, I could join you guys for an outing, and finally get to meet everyone.

    Cheers Omre!

  19. #739

    Default Re: FZriends Thread (FZ18 & FZ28 users and ex-users group - part II)

    Ah, I like that quote Wabbit. Yup, we're becoming irrelevant.
    Looking for Canon 100mm F2 USM :)

  20. #740

    Default Re: FZriends Thread (FZ18 & FZ28 users and ex-users group - part II)

    just bringing this post forward

    *~Last Minute Mini Outing~*

    Date : 01 July 2009 (Wednesday)
    Time : 12nn
    Venue : City Hall MRT Station

    List of people going

    1. Navlem (Me)
    2. Ombre
    3. Clunk
    4. Skyguy
    5.

    Please add in your name if you are interested.
    ztphotography
    Nikon D90 | Nikon D600 | Canon ixus 120IS

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