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Thread: FZriends Thread (FZ18 & FZ28 users and ex-users group - part II)

  1. #701
    Member Clunk's Avatar
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    Default Re: FZriends Thread (FZ18 & FZ28 users and ex-users group - part II)

    Quote Originally Posted by vinze View Post
    HI CLUNK !!

    please call me at abt 9pm to acertain the exact pick up time !
    & did u buy the rods n stuff ?

    lastly., does this mean this tread will be coming to an end soon with the selling off of FZ 28 ?

    OH man.. onli me and a hand ful of guys / gals left with the FZ ... : (
    Hi Vinze, yup will call you tonight about fishing and pickup time. I did get a rod, no worries, found a shop easy. I will still frequent this thread, I still want to stay in contact with the friends I have made here. Feels a bit strange without a camera though. Dun know if I should buy second hand or new. The second hand camera I had my eye on sold before I could have a look.
    Looking forward to tonight's fishing, will see you later, thanks.
    Ex-FZ 28 Sony a330 SAM 3.5-5.6/18-55 SAM 4-5.6/55-200 DCR250

  2. #702

    Default Re: FZriends Thread (FZ18 & FZ28 users and ex-users group - part II)

    congratz for selling ur cam...
    ztphotography
    Nikon D90 | Nikon D600 | Canon ixus 120IS

  3. #703
    Member Clunk's Avatar
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    Default Re: FZriends Thread (FZ18 & FZ28 users and ex-users group - part II)

    Thanks Skyguy, I am out of town for a few days, going to Malaysia for anniversary, will be back Tuesday night. I would really like to catch up with you and Ombre sometime soon. Also Amy and I want to meet with Stacey.
    So far it looks like I am getting a Sony a330 with two kit lens (hopefully tomorrow, so I will have it to take away). There is a half day promo workshop for all new camera buyers so will have to fit that in before 14 July.
    Having no camera makes me feel somewhat handicapped, nearly feel like I should be wrapped up in bandages.
    Had better go get my fishing gear together, Vinze is picking me up in about an hour, see you later.
    Ex-FZ 28 Sony a330 SAM 3.5-5.6/18-55 SAM 4-5.6/55-200 DCR250

  4. #704

    Default Re: FZriends Thread (FZ18 & FZ28 users and ex-users group - part II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Clunk View Post
    Thanks Skyguy, I am out of town for a few days, going to Malaysia for anniversary, will be back Tuesday night. I would really like to catch up with you and Ombre sometime soon. Also Amy and I want to meet with Stacey.
    So far it looks like I am getting a Sony a330 with two kit lens (hopefully tomorrow, so I will have it to take away). There is a half day promo workshop for all new camera buyers so will have to fit that in before 14 July.
    Having no camera makes me feel somewhat handicapped, nearly feel like I should be wrapped up in bandages.
    Had better go get my fishing gear together, Vinze is picking me up in about an hour, see you later.
    Hope you get Julian W. as your workshop instructor, he is a very very good photographer, and i admire his works.

    He sometimes teaches at the workshop which you are going to be attending very soon.
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  5. #705

    Default Re: FZriends Thread (FZ18 & FZ28 users and ex-users group - part II)

    Hmmm... The Dark Side is winning. Hahahaha...

    But I'm glad that you guys will still be around as a valuable source of information for me. Hey, I got inspired to get the FZ28 because of all the posts...

    Anyways, I'm enjoying the camera heaps. Next leap in the forseeable future, Panny M4/3 system. G1? Hmmmmm.... maybe a future FZ model with better sensors?

    Have a great weekend everyone!
    Last edited by Wabbit; 27th June 2009 at 02:57 AM.

  6. #706

    Default Re: FZriends Thread (FZ18 & FZ28 users and ex-users group - part II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wabbit View Post
    Hmmm... The Dark Side is winning. Hahahaha...

    But I'm glad that you guys will still be around as a valuable source of information for me. Hey, I got inspired to get the FZ28 because of all the posts...

    Anyways, I'm enjoying the camera heaps. Next leap in the forseeable future, Panny M4/3 system. G1? Hmmmmm.... maybe a future FZ model with better sensors?

    Have a great weekend everyone!
    hi... I'm not sure if there will be any new models under FZ coming out... I, myself, is also waiting, but already few months, and no signs of the new FZ models...

    For panny m4/3, the G1 price has been high up, and never seems to drop, despite the economic crisis. As for the GH1, all the news & discussions are enough for me to grade it as a camera that is unreachable, and in my opinion, cannot justify for the price.

    Just my personal opinion... ...

  7. #707

    Default Re: FZriends Thread (FZ18 & FZ28 users and ex-users group - part II)

    Quote Originally Posted by navlem View Post
    Hope you get Julian W. as your workshop instructor, he is a very very good photographer, and i admire his works.

    He sometimes teaches at the workshop which you are going to be attending very soon.
    Hi, its true and I agree with you.
    Julian W. is good, and I've met him once.
    How I wish I can afford to get CZ lenses, then I'll be able to get S*** DSLR models already...

    In my opinion, the Leica lenses in panny models gives richer and more crisp photos... CZ lenses wise, also good, but I don't have the chance to do direct comparison.

  8. #708

    Default Re: FZriends Thread (FZ18 & FZ28 users and ex-users group - part II)

    Quote Originally Posted by stitan2005 View Post
    hi... I'm not sure if there will be any new models under FZ coming out... I, myself, is also waiting, but already few months, and no signs of the new FZ models...
    True from what I gathered, a number of people are awaiting the "new release", without much indications from Panny. But with the release of Canon SX1 and Sony HX1 with CMOS sensors and increased zoom, many would expect Panny to up the ante. Though these sensors have yet to mark a significant leap ahead of the current pack of FZ28 and SX10 in terms of IQ... and of course, the price point factor.

    Rumours are abound that the FZ28 has been "discountinued", fuelling further speculations of an impending update or new release.

    Well, July is traditionally the release date for the FZs... just have to wait and see. No rush. And with the release of the Olympus Pen E-P1, it will certainly be interesting to see how the product segments for Panny will evolve for the next few months.


    Quote Originally Posted by stitan2005 View Post
    For panny m4/3, the G1 price has been high up, and never seems to drop, despite the economic crisis. As for the GH1, all the news & discussions are enough for me to grade it as a camera that is unreachable, and in my opinion, cannot justify for the price.
    I agree with you. For me, the GH1 is priced out. It will be more logical to make a leap to a DSLR.

    Personally, I would still prefer a camera with fixed lens that extends from wide to tele just like the FZ28. It eradicates the hassle of carrying so many camera gears around. As for sensors, I am not too sure whether Panny will improve significantly on the current FZ, for a fact that a larger sensor will impede on it's compact size; and the increment in price. Even with an improved sensor that might meet the criterias discussed, there may be a possible scenario of market cannibalization between the bridge and M4/3 segments... most likely, an improvement on features, swivel display, hotshoe... will be of greater possibility? As for IQ improvements, chances are the it will be improved somewhat, but not enough to close the disparity between the M4/3s and FZs.

    I think that Panny will focus on the M4/3 system, and further develop the segments for it. A rangefinder-like release will be possible, in-tuned to the E-P1.

    Well, a superzoom camera with fixed lens, and a good sensor... coupled with a rangefinder-styled camera... this is my wish list. Most likely I'll use the rangefinder more than the superzoom camera. And if possible, I'll like to regress to film format. Hahahaha... still waiting to permenantly "borrow" an old Leica from someone.

    The E-P1 is certainly interesting... hmmmmmmm...

    Cheers!
    Last edited by Wabbit; 27th June 2009 at 07:10 PM.

  9. #709
    Member Clunk's Avatar
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    Default Re: FZriends Thread (FZ18 & FZ28 users and ex-users group - part II)

    Hi everyone, well, have moved to the dark-side and bought a new Sony a330 twin kit lens outfit this afternoon, with the help of Melvan. Have just managed to charge the battery and cook dinner for everyone. Feeling very tired after only three hours sleep after the fishing trip with Vinze. Will have plenty of chance to catch up on sleep tomorrow on the way to Genting on the coach. Will read up on the manual and hopefully be able to post some pics from the new camera when I get back.
    Need sleep right now zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
    Ex-FZ 28 Sony a330 SAM 3.5-5.6/18-55 SAM 4-5.6/55-200 DCR250

  10. #710

    Default Re: FZriends Thread (FZ18 & FZ28 users and ex-users group - part II)

    Hahah im looking forward to meet clunk and amy, ombre and skyguy too! maybe we shld arrange a suitable day. clunk when are u leaving singapore for darwin?
    cheers

  11. #711

    Default Re: FZriends Thread (FZ18 & FZ28 users and ex-users group - part II)

    Quote Originally Posted by stitan2005 View Post
    hi... I'm not sure if there will be any new models under FZ coming out... I, myself, is also waiting, but already few months, and no signs of the new FZ models...

    For panny m4/3, the G1 price has been high up, and never seems to drop, despite the economic crisis. As for the GH1, all the news & discussions are enough for me to grade it as a camera that is unreachable, and in my opinion, cannot justify for the price.

    Just my personal opinion... ...
    i doubt there will be newer model of FZ... fz18 come out at like 2006 when i was in poly year 2... got my fz18 on 2008... and after a few month fz28 came out... -_-... so my guess is tat the next fz should be 2010... another reason why not this year is becoz of the economic crisis, so bad that they didn't even setup a booth during the IT show...

    as for the price of the dslr, dun expect it to drop too much... its doesn't work like handphone... the dslr price of any brand will never drop much... it will rather phase out that camera than lowering the price... this was the advice given to me by other photographer some time back

    i guess i will be sticking very close to my fz18 for the time being.
    Last edited by skyguy; 27th June 2009 at 11:25 PM.
    ztphotography
    Nikon D90 | Nikon D600 | Canon ixus 120IS

  12. #712

    Default Re: FZriends Thread (FZ18 & FZ28 users and ex-users group - part II)

    Haha, welcome to the dark side
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  13. #713

    Default Re: FZriends Thread (FZ18 & FZ28 users and ex-users group - part II)

    Quote Originally Posted by navlem View Post
    Haha, welcome to the dark side
    Hi guys, I can't really seem to follow most of the stuff you guys are talking about haha, but what is with the "dark-side?". The Dark-side is commonly synonymous to the Nikon camp.. =P No Nikonians here are there?

    Quote Originally Posted by skyguy View Post
    i doubt there will be newer model of FZ... fz18 come out at like 2006 when i was in poly year 2... got my fz18 on 2008... and after a few month fz28 came out... -_-... so my guess is tat the next fz should be 2010... another reason why not this year is becoz of the economic crisis, so bad that they didn't even setup a booth during the IT show...

    as for the price of the dslr, dun expect it to drop too much... its doesn't work like handphone... the dslr price of any brand will never drop much... it will rather phase out that camera than lowering the price... this was the advice given to me by other photographer some time back

    i guess i will be sticking very close to my fz18 for the time being.
    I will agree partly with skyguy. Yes I dont think theres going to be an FZ38 or something like that soon. If anything I think the FZ50 will upgrade first. Probably a fusion of the FZ28 with FZ50's handling?

    Otherwise, I don't see any realistic way for them to upgrade the camera's specs. FZ28 already covers a huge range with its good lens, and I don't think they'll launch a new camera just based on software or interface tweaks.

    Hm as for prices dropping. The retail prices definitely won't drop much until a new model comes out. But thats as much as I can agree with skyguy here. If you go by street prices, yes, prices do fluctuate a lot for DSLR bodies, and they drop by a lot after first 3 months of launch too. I don't know why panasonic is holding up their prices so tight, but maybe if you look at their street prices, there could be a difference? Although yea, once its past 2 generations, usually the cams will get phased out instead of experiencing a big price drop, again, this only applies to the retail section... there will be left over stock and 2nd hand sellers ^^.
    Looking for Canon 100mm F2 USM :)

  14. #714

    Default Re: FZriends Thread (FZ18 & FZ28 users and ex-users group - part II)

    Yup, but seems like its refered to "DSLR side" over here. :P

    And btw now prosumers go as far as 26x zoom, so FZ28's 18x zoom is 'ancient' already. :X
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  15. #715

    Default Re: FZriends Thread (FZ18 & FZ28 users and ex-users group - part II)

    I agree with the sentiments here. Most likely development and focus for Panny this year will most probably be the M4/3 system, instead of the FZs.

    But hypothetically, how many of you who currently own a FZ18/FZ28/FZ50, would upgrade to let's say a "FZ38" or "FZ60"? Given that:

    a) The sensor and IQ have improved from current model. Closing the gap to entry level DSLR, but entry level DSLR still maintains it's lead over IQ performances.
    b) Comes with upgrades in swivel display, hotshoe, bigger EVF, increased zoom... etc.
    c) Given that the price point might be closer to the SX1 or HX1.

    Or, would you rather just make a direct leap to DSLR instead, and drop prosumers all together?

    Lastly, congrats Clunk for your new acquisition. Hope you have lots of fun with your new camera.


  16. #716

    Default Re: FZriends Thread (FZ18 & FZ28 users and ex-users group - part II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wabbit View Post
    I agree with the sentiments here. Most likely development and focus for Panny this year will most probably be the M4/3 system, instead of the FZs.

    But hypothetically, how many of you who currently own a FZ18/FZ28/FZ50, would upgrade to let's say a "FZ38" or "FZ60"? Given that:

    a) The sensor and IQ have improved from current model. Closing the gap to entry level DSLR, but entry level DSLR still maintains it's lead over IQ performances.
    b) Comes with upgrades in swivel display, hotshoe, bigger EVF, increased zoom... etc.
    c) Given that the price point might be closer to the SX1 or HX1.

    Quote Originally Posted by navlem View Post
    Yup, but seems like its refered to "DSLR side" over here. :P

    And btw now prosumers go as far as 26x zoom, so FZ28's 18x zoom is 'ancient' already. :X
    So I see there are some ideas coming up about the speculation of a new prosumer to close the gap between prosumers and entry DSLRS.

    Well, personally I feel that it is rather pointless to launch a new camera if you'd to swap out the sensors (very unlikely, most probably just processor), increase LCD, increase megapixel, reformat the user interface... etc etc. While that is what earns many companies their money, just launching new models that are not very 'up-ed'... you wouldn't want to buy such a camera would you? At least during the upgrade between FZ18 and FZ28, theres some changes to the lens, and the firmware upgrades was quite a decent bit. But then again, if you ask me, is the FZ18 and FZ28 very different cameras? If you throw out the high-res video recording, they're next to identical, with 1mm difference in the lens, and infact FZ28's lens has smaller overall aperture. Despite the small changes, their prices are about $250 apart now.

    What Melvan raised made a little more sense to launch a newer model. To have a newer and longer lens. But actually, there's a gimmick to the extra zoom lenses too... they're horribly slow, some of these zooms end at like F6.9 on the long end! And the sensors got even smaller to make the long zooms possible.

    Well yes, you can say, most consumers don't know all these stuff, they'll just buy the 26X zoom. But hm, just purely my opinion, I seldom see Leica trying to make small lenses. Most of their lenses made for prosumers are always with really wide apertures. For instance the FZ18's 18X zoom ends at F4.2, instead of F5.6 or F5.9 like many others. The FZ50 ends at F3.3 on the 12X zoom range, very fast... And definitely not forgetting...the fastest lens in on the prosumer market is the LX3, F2-F2.8. So yar, I just dont see them making a 2x times zoom and have small apertures. It will be silly to have big apertures on a zoom too long since the cam is going to be darn heavy.

    By the way Wabbit, what do you foresee for Panasonic's 4/3 system? I don't follow their 4/3 side much, but they look very stuck to me, they've already got their different ranges/ models, they look like they just lack lenses for awhile.
    Looking for Canon 100mm F2 USM :)

  17. #717

    Default Re: FZriends Thread (FZ18 & FZ28 users and ex-users group - part II)

    They still lack lenses :P
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  18. #718

    Default Re: FZriends Thread (FZ18 & FZ28 users and ex-users group - part II)

    Quote Originally Posted by ombre View Post
    So I see there are some ideas coming up about the speculation of a new prosumer to close the gap between prosumers and entry DSLRS....

    By the way Wabbit, what do you foresee for Panasonic's 4/3 system? I don't follow their 4/3 side much, but they look very stuck to me, they've already got their different ranges/ models, they look like they just lack lenses for awhile.
    In my opinion, the market positioning for Panny's M4/3 system is quite ackward. The paradigm of a "bridge camera" and "entry level DSLR" segments have been shifted. Arguments are aplenty about how to categorise the G1s. Some would argue it is not a DSLR, for the lack of single lens reflex convention. Some would argue it is indeed akin to an entry level DSLR by it's IQ and interchangeable lense capabilities. I would say it is both, and not exclusive.

    I feel that Panny developed the M4/3 based G1s with a segment gap in mind. I'll call it the "new bridge". Fundamentally, the market segment for the G1s would be "consumers thinking about progressing from P&Ss to DSLRs", the in-between transition makers.

    The advent of the FZ series have substantially exhibited one particular consumer behaviour. Consumers in this segment are not satisfied with automated simple point and shoot, and wants more customisations in terms of composition; but are not ready to commit to a DSLR and lenses price points, and still want a level of portability. Hence, the first bridge or "old bridge" that included P/M/S/A modes, without the size of a DSLR, with fixed lens that provides a sizeable range. The first among few to capitalize the "quasi-DSLRs" for the mass market, and Panny became the forerunner a couple years' back.

    Moving forward, the consumers in this segment evolved. Experimentations with converters, filters....etc. "More, we want more!" says this segment. Another gap presented itself; more lens options, better IQ, and more DSLR features. Raise your hands if you have ever attempted pushing your FZs and making it more DSLR. However, this time, we see the convergence of two segments, that lead to the M4/3 G1; and entry level DSLRs of other makes becoming more accessible.

    Hence, effectively, M3/4 G1 is the "new bridge" in this segent gap. Best put by Panasonic themselves:

    “With the LUMIX G1, we are filling a void that has existed for a long time in the digital camera market because consumers wanted the power of an SLR, but previous models were bulky and inconvenient.... The LUMIX G answers this challenge as consumers can benefit from the flexibility of changing lenses; a quick Auto Focus; and a sensor that produces high-quality photos. By packing all those powerful assets into an extremely compact body with easy-to-use features familiar to point-and-shoot users, we are excited about G, as it brings new possibilities to the consumer.”

    And effectively, one can conclude that G1 is supposed to fill this gap, the "new bridge". G1 is supposed to be the "new FZ38 or FZ50", not literally. The "supposed" is oppose by it's price point unfortunately, and the market positioning is somwhat skewed.

    Simultaneously, other manufactuers reacted to the gap by making their entry level DSLRs more accessible. Entry level DSLRs are becoming more affordable, easier to use, constructed with more features (traditionally only attributed to the mid to high end DSLRS, or P&S)... in some cases, they are becoming more compact as well. (i.e. CCD based Sony A330 ) From this perspective, new entry level DSLRs have blurred the definition of the "bridge cameras".

    Priced at 1k with kit lens, the G1 is more an alternate system rather than a bridge, compared to the new entry level DSLRs. The GH1, well, it's price point is another beast altogether.... hahahaha.

    Where do they go from here?

    In the medium term, they will continue to push the front of M4/3 system with the release of more lenses. Effectively, the G1 is already the basement model with the release of GH1 in the G series. How would they further differenciate against entry level DSLRs, and justify that the M4/3 is a viable alternative system? That is a connundrum best left answered by Panny themselves.

    Ombre, you are right when you said the M4/3 system seems stucked. However, I would attributed that to new entry level DSLRs becoming more accessible. There are lens adapters avaiable for the G1 to mount certain conventional lenses if I am not wrong. Olympus has the M4/3 system as well. We'll see more lenses as Panasonic and Olympus push the front. You also have the option of Leicas M lens, but as we all know......

    For the short term, and the next product "bang" by Panasonic, I would expect a rangefinder-styled M4/3 system release, similar to the Olympus Pen E-P1. This is another gap in the market that has not been exploited for awhile, as DSLRs have been the focus in most parts. From one perspective, the consumer behaviour exhibited for the rangefinder style segment is very similar to the prosumers under the "old bridge" segment. Just need to look at the LX3 and G9/10 users. LX3 users have been modifying their cameras with lens adapters, and screaming for a better sensor; though it is one of the best in it's class currently. Deja vu...

    Further, rangefinders styled cameras and compacts are often a second camera for DSLR users. It is more convenient to lug those around than a DSLR for daily usage. However, the quality of normal P&Ss leave much to be desired in terms of IQ; if one is accustomed to IQ of DSLRs.

    With an additional range as such based on rangefinder styled M4/3, cross-application of M4/3 lenses will be extended beyond the G1/GH1. Lens development will thus make more sense.

    I feel that the M4/3 Olympus E-P1 is a marketing master stroke. Though the price point... hmmmm... however, if one owns a DSLR gear worth a couple of thousand dollars, don't think the price point for the E-P1 will be that much of an issue for some.

    The above is just my opinion. It's raining here in Hong Kong, and I can't head out. Thought I would indulge in a little discussion, hence the prolonged take on the topic... hahahahaha...

    Cheers everyone!
    Last edited by Wabbit; 28th June 2009 at 06:14 PM.

  19. #719

    Default Re: FZriends Thread (FZ18 & FZ28 users and ex-users group - part II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wabbit View Post
    ...
    That is quite some immense thought you've put in Wabbit. I don't think I can keep up the discussion to the level of detail you've presented. But nevertheless, I shall discuss some of my thoughts.

    You've called the G1 a 'bridge' between prosumers and DSLRS. While on one hand it may seem like it, Panasonic already has higher end 'DSLR-like' models, I believe it is the GH1 you've mentioned, all with the same non-reflex concept. Therefore, I would say that G1 is in fact itself, an entry level "DSLR" system of the Panasonic camp. I would not guess that they have the intentions to include shutters into their systems anytime soon.

    Again, it does not appear to me that Panasonic is trying to develop bodies. It simply does not sound like a smart move unless they have a lens selection up. From the way you have described your opinion of what consumers want, it does almost seem like these consumers you have in mind are just 'gadget-chasers' if I may call it. If I may ask, what is so fun about changing lenses? Especially since the lenses that Panasonic offers are neither faster nor longer, or even wider than those offered by their prosumer class. In fact, I would consider getting a G1 a downgrade, comparing to the FZs, simply because the lens is going to cripple the body anyway. As for interface wise, they're all pretty similar, with the same modes etc. Faster auto-focus? Again, its largely the lens' job since Panasonic is using an electronic auto-focus concept, much like Canon. So the pros that you mentioned about the G1, while theoratically conceived, is not practically produced.

    So what really sets the G1 apart, is simply the size of the four-thirds sensor. What does a big sensor help? For the most part, just noise and a little bit of sharpness. Noise? Well, its pretty bad according to most reviews. So really, the entire Panasonic system won't have an edge at this moment. Simply put, I believe they're just trying to break into the market, starting small. A tad bit like Sony, although Sony's got a great jump start.

    As for entry levels becoming more affordable? I do query that sometimes. Clever marketing has made us all believed so, but after the buying frenzy has died down, take a step back and look at the price differences. I'd cite from the camp I'm most familiar with, a Canon 40D, semi-professional that will beat both entry levels 450D and 500D in many aspect, costs only a small fraction above 450D, and a lot less than 500D. The same can be said over at the Nikon camp with the really expensive D90 and 5000D.

    Coming to the part about adaptable lenses for the G1, generally all 4/3 mount lenses will work. I can only think of 2 plausibilities.

    1) Panasonic can't make lenses, but hope that someone will buy their body to use other companies lenses. Thus they over-price their bodies so that they can still keep going.
    2) I prefer this position: It is unlikely that Panasonic will rather let the other companies supply lenses for their own body. If yes, it is probably a tie-up with Leica, which does exist but the line-up is still too few, and too expensive. I believe Panasonic would rather produce their entire lineup if they had a choice.

    Okay I am not keeping up. But if I read you correctly, the large part of your opinion focuses that consumers are going for 'style'. For instance you mentioned LX3 being liked due to it being a range-finder style camera? I would not agree that its range-finder look is LX3's main strength. But it really lies in the lens. And yes, the sensor is being complained about, because Panasonic does indeed fall short when it comes to sensors. I don't feel that the development of the bodies will lead to development of lenses. But conversely, I'm back to lenses again, saying that Panasonic won't advance much if they can't bring up some good lenses.

    Alright, just my 2 cents feel free to correct me again if necessary, sorry its kind of late so I'm off to bed!
    Looking for Canon 100mm F2 USM :)

  20. #720

    Default Re: FZriends Thread (FZ18 & FZ28 users and ex-users group - part II)

    Quote Originally Posted by ombre View Post
    You've called the G1 a 'bridge' between prosumers and DSLRS. While on one hand it may seem like it, Panasonic already has higher end 'DSLR-like' models, I believe it is the GH1 you've mentioned, all with the same non-reflex concept. Therefore, I would say that G1 is in fact itself, an entry level "DSLR" system of the Panasonic camp. I would not guess that they have the intentions to include shutters into their systems anytime soon.
    Traditionally, this "bridge" segment gap was filled by the prosumers. However, there has been a paradigm shift of what defines a "bridge" camera. Therefore, I termed G1 the "new bridge". It is not a "bridge" between prosumers and DSLRs, but a bridge between the "transition makers", from maybe a point and shoot to DSLRs, which traditionally was a prosumer.

    However, the price point for the G1 irradicates such market positioning, as opposed to Panasonic's statement. With DSLRs becoming more accessible, and the price point of G1 being closer to the DSLR, it thus becomes, "an entry level DSLR", but it is too an alternative system. Hence, the positioning connumdrum of Panasonic as I mentioned.

    Your argument is the exact sentiment I put forth in my post. Maybe I was a tad too long winded. Hahahaha... My apologies.


    Quote Originally Posted by ombre View Post
    Again, it does not appear to me that Panasonic is trying to develop bodies. It simply does not sound like a smart move unless they have a lens selection up. From the way you have described your opinion of what consumers want, it does almost seem like these consumers you have in mind are just 'gadget-chasers' if I may call it.
    I like the term "gadget-chasers". Good one Omre. This is just my opinion, but I do believe that all or most consumers are "gadget-chasers", the only difference is financial accessibility, or to put it blantly, disposable income. As for logical reasoning, and prioritizing of needs, people have a tendancy of self justification if disposble income facilitates. There is a difference between "needs" and wants", but if "wants" can be facilitated financially, the line in-between can be a tad blurry. Consumerism at work.

    Let's avoid the moral dilemma of this discourse. For as Jesus loves you... He loves me too . Peace Bro!

    Not to butter you guys up, I was glad when I tumbled across this thread prior to getting a camera. You guys are honest about your opinions, and rational about purchases, and responsible in dispensing advices. How often have we seen a newbie post something like "Canon or Nikon" or "Prosumer or DSLR", and get utterly confused at the end of the day by irresponsible posters. Well, I guess responsibity is exclusively a voluntary extension in the vitual world, and it is inherent within this thread.


    Quote Originally Posted by ombre View Post
    If I may ask, what is so fun about changing lenses? Especially since the lenses that Panasonic offers are neither faster nor longer, or even wider than those offered by their prosumer class. In fact, I would consider getting a G1 a downgrade, comparing to the FZs, simply because the lens is going to cripple the body anyway. As for interface wise, they're all pretty similar, with the same modes etc. Faster auto-focus? Again, its largely the lens' job since Panasonic is using an electronic auto-focus concept, much like Canon. So the pros that you mentioned about the G1, while theoratically conceived, is not practically produced.
    Theoratically, if we can agree on the product positioning of G1 as an entry level DSLR, then your argument similarly applies to entry level DSLRs. Hence, the production of entry level DSLRs is not practical within these factors mentioned.

    If, on the other hand, we put forth arguments "for" the practicality of entry level DSLRs over prosumers, the arguments trenscend themsevles to a certain extent, "for" G1 logically.

    Of course we can go into the techical model-to-model comparisons and justify arguments for or against, but there will always be a market that bucks the logic presented.

    It will be interesting if we part-take in a social experiment, and start a thread on "G1 or FZ28" or "G1 or Canon", just for example, and gather the responses. We may just see facets of our arguments presented by others. At the end of the day, values are perceived, and always multi-faceted.


    Quote Originally Posted by ombre View Post
    So what really sets the G1 apart, is simply the size of the four-thirds sensor. What does a big sensor help? For the most part, just noise and a little bit of sharpness. Noise? Well, its pretty bad according to most reviews. So really, the entire Panasonic system won't have an edge at this moment. Simply put, I believe they're just trying to break into the market, starting small. A tad bit like Sony, although Sony's got a great jump start.
    Yes, I do agree with your statements. From the review sites I've visited, the G1 does begin to exhibit noise artifacts at ISO800.

    If we can agree to not disagree that G1 is positioned as an entry-level DSLR, your statements reflected what I had mentioned:

    "How would they further differenciate against entry level DSLRs, and justify that the M4/3 is a viable alternative system? That is a connundrum best left answered by Panny themselves."


    Quote Originally Posted by ombre View Post
    As for entry levels becoming more affordable? I do query that sometimes. Clever marketing has made us all believed so, but after the buying frenzy has died down, take a step back and look at the price differences. I'd cite from the camp I'm most familiar with, a Canon 40D, semi-professional that will beat both entry levels 450D and 500D in many aspect, costs only a small fraction above 450D, and a lot less than 500D. The same can be said over at the Nikon camp with the really expensive D90 and 5000D.
    If we look at entry-level DSLRs based just on price point variable alone, then the Canon 40D thus become a viable "entry-level DSLR" with that respect. Though features would class it as a semi-professional camera.

    Quote Originally Posted by ombre View Post
    Coming to the part about adaptable lenses for the G1, generally all 4/3 mount lenses will work. I can only think of 2 plausibilities.

    1) Panasonic can't make lenses, but hope that someone will buy their body to use other companies lenses. Thus they over-price their bodies so that they can still keep going.
    2) I prefer this position: It is unlikely that Panasonic will rather let the other companies supply lenses for their own body. If yes, it is probably a tie-up with Leica, which does exist but the line-up is still too few, and too expensive. I believe Panasonic would rather produce their entire lineup if they had a choice.
    Opposedly, I don't fully agree that Panasonic would not let other companies supply lenses for their own body. I feel that the M4/3 DSLR segment in general is still a niche. Though not a new technology entirely. Over-pricing or market skimming is often the nature in a niche market. Marketing wheels will churned, professing a revolutionary new camera, and milking early adopters.

    However, this pool of consumers will be limited. As the product life cycle progresses, one probable strategy is to attempt to go mass market. Resources will be limited at this point, and time to market factor is critically important, as with the market crying the lack of lenses for G1. Competition will be good at this point. Why? Simply put, at the consumer level, choices and compatibility. If other entrants were to enter the market at this stage, and produce bodies and subsequent compatible lenses for the M4/3 system, this niche market can be further developed into a possible mass market collectively. (Whether the G1 or M4/3 will develop a mass appeal, we'll just leave it as that.)

    At this point, competition may be good for lack of resources and time to market factors. M4/3 may develop a better market platform, which may be advantageous for Panny ironically.

    Realistically, Panny won't be able to release a sizeable options of lenses within 1-2 years, and this is the first year of the G-series release. As you mentioned, Panny would need to develop good lenses if they want to advance within this market. This is one way.


    Quote Originally Posted by ombre View Post
    Okay I am not keeping up. But if I read you correctly, the large part of your opinion focuses that consumers are going for 'style'. For instance you mentioned LX3 being liked due to it being a range-finder style camera? I would not agree that its range-finder look is LX3's main strength. But it really lies in the lens. And yes, the sensor is being complained about, because Panasonic does indeed fall short when it comes to sensors. I don't feel that the development of the bodies will lead to development of lenses. But conversely, I'm back to lenses again, saying that Panasonic won't advance much if they can't bring up some good lenses.
    Not style as a primary factor. My argument was the gap as mentioned. Style is definitely an added aesthetic, which I don't think anyone would frown upon.

    As with LX3 being a like a range-finder style camera,, maybe there was a misderstanding, and I didn't put my across more specifically. The context relates to compactness, portibility...etc, the feature elements. My apologies Ombre.


    I'm running out of gas too... and I guess, this discussion can go on forever. But I thoroughly enjoyed it. Thank you for taking the time to read and reply my posts. Different perspectives are healthy. No right no wrong, just different sides of a coin.

    Cheers Ombre!

    P.S. If I ever decide to make the leap to the dark side, I'll know where to go for information.
    Last edited by Wabbit; 29th June 2009 at 06:16 AM.

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