Suggestion: Code of Conduct for Lingerine and Nude Organised Shoots

[AverRal]

Actually, I am not all that supportive of banning of nude photography as it does not solve the issue but rather, avoid it. I am concerned about the issue of regulating the standard of organised shoots.

Hence, i hope a code of conduct can be introduced to organised shoots to give a positive learning experience to aspiring photographers as well as, reduce the number of photographers who have other intentions.


A Photoshoot Organiser
Definition: Someone who plans and conducts photo shoots for members who pays a nominal fee for attendance.

It is important to maintain a standard of high quality organisers who will organise shoots for clubsnap members which in turn, will have better producing photos.

I suggest the two conditions a organiser is required to have:

1. Basic set up of lighting equipment for attendees

2. A mentor (experienced) who will guide the attendees.
(Mentor portfolio must be made available to the public for viewing to evaluate his credibility)

These will thus reduce the number of unprofessional organised shoots. Although it might reduce the number of organisers as they are unable to fulfill the criteria, it will in turn, increase the number of professional organisers who are genuinely in the business of teaching photography. In a way, the value of advertising will increase due to the increased demand of professional organisers.

It might be also brought into your attention that organised shoots as turned out such that an organiser could just hire three pretty girls off the street who have little or no modelling experience - organise the shoot - get payments from attendees - and the photos turn out very bad - it in a way, decreases the models value and does not aid the photographer's portfolio.

To ensure that new photographers can prosper with this forum community, they need guidance - thus a mentor (at least 2 years experience) should be there to guide the photographers at organised shoots and basic lighting set up. Although this is not favourable to the organiser due to added cost, it is favourable to new photographers who will thus achieve better quality photos - and in turn - raise the model's face value as well.

These two basic terms and conditions should be introduced to promote club snap as a resource for learning photography in a professional environment.

There is also the issue lingerie and nude organised shoots. For this case, the above rules should apply more stringently. The mentor should have a portfolio (of a acceptable standard) showing that he has experience in lingerine and nude shoots in order for the shoot to proceed.

Lingerie and nude photos can turn out awfully pornographic or artistic depending on the way the shoot is conducted. It is also a very sensitive issue in an Asian context. I am also concerned that the forum will attract the wrong types of "photographers". The girls safety might be compromised, especially if done in a hotel/studio/indoor setting.

I hope you will seriously take my suggestions into consideration. I wish to contribute to the community in a positive way. As I am a model myself, I have seen girls being compromised because of their inexperience in the modeling industry. I hope that you will protect these girls and by raising the integrity of the organisers by introducing these two basic terms and conditions.

I have highlighted this to Darren and I hope the other moderators can take a look and give more suggestions on the regulation of organised shoots. Hopefully, they can be implemented as soon as possible.

Who knows in time to come, we might have world famous models and photographers prospering after since meeting in club snap .

[obfuscate]

I don't think your idea will work at all, the world does not work on the way you see it to be.

[vince123123]

Yup, well there are always idealists around.

[AverRal]

Well, we are talking about organised shoots here and yes! They can be regulated, because they have to pay to register. Those registered have to fulfill some guidelines. Shouldn't it be that way?

I am open to more ideas too because i am sure there are others who would like to contribute ways to conduct organised shoots professionally.

[obfuscate]

The problem with your suggestion is that your are offerring other people's time, energy and expertise. All this effort translates to opportunity costs.

[vince123123]

Yup, and the guidelines doesn't quite work with outdoor shoots either.

[AverRal]

Originally Posted by obfuscate The problem with your suggestion is that your are offerring other people's time, energy and expertise. All this effort translates to opportunity costs.

Shouldn't it be the way in the first place? I think club snap has seriously eroded the art of photography by conducting unsupervised shoots at their own discourse. The truth is, photography is a art that needs a master. The standard of photography here is horrible, take a look at model mayhem and deviantart, they are so much advanced in the finer aspects of photography that sometimes when I look at organised shoots I find that they create almost zero value to the photographers and models. There are photographers and models who actually treat this more then just a hobby, it can be a profession.

Originally Posted by vince123123 Yup, and the guidelines doesn't quite work with outdoor shoots either.

Outdoor shoots uses reflectors as well, it is a basic essential. A mentor can also give tips to look out for certain lighting conditions during the day at specific timings and locations where the lighting can be. It takes a trained eye to spot this, and not many photographers are able to master this art of outdoor lighting techniques, that is why you need a mentor who is experienced in shooting outdoors to advise those who are starting out. (think of it as a photography school).

Organised shoots are meant as a source for learning the art of photography and not as a source to collect photos of pretty girls.

[grantyale]

ClubSnap is just ClubSnap. People get what they want out of it. The word "photography" means different things to different people, so does "photoshoot".

[ahbeng]

Excuse me, are you a robot? We here in Singapore have too many rules, laws, regulations. Please give us a break la.

[vince123123]

Who says that outdoor photography must use reflectors? It is NOT a basic essential.

If so much policing is involved, the price of each shoot will go up - way up. Most "mentoring" courses you have described costs many hundreds of dollars. They are courses, not organised shoots.

Everyone has certain requirements for shoots. For example, non-newbies may not require these "extras" and prefer to just join the shoots as is. Newbies may want the extras. That's why there are different types of shoots.

You're asking for every shoot to be a pro-level shoot. Lets reverse the situation. Must every shoot also come with a pro-model mentor who can guide the new models how to pose? Must a shoot organiser then comprise both a pro photographer mentor, as well as a pro-model mentor before it can be orgnaised? In that case, shall we suggest those models putting up their services for hire here, must have a pro-model mentor to help them during their shoots, and they must then share their fees with the pro-model mentor. After all, according to your suggestion, we must strive for the best, shouldn't we?

To reverse your statement below, "modelling jobs are meant as a source for learning the art of modelling and progress to become supermodels, not as a source for young women to earn extra money on the fly or as additional income for part time models".

See how things changes very fast when they are reversed?

Originally Posted by AverRal Organised shoots are meant as a source for learning the art of photography and not as a source to collect photos of pretty girls.

[Nick F56]

In this world you get what you pay for. I have been on shoots where no guidance at all is offered, in which case as a learner photographer I do not really get to improve. On the other hand where guidance has been provided (at a higher fee) I have obtained a lot more value - frankly I prefer the latter. It's a case of what your expectations are from thej shoot.

[sORe-EyEz]

Originally Posted by AverRal Organised shoots are meant as a source for learning the art of photography and not as a source to collect photos of pretty girls.

unfortunately not true, far from it.

[Rangefinder_fan]

I dont see what the whole big deal is.
So these guys want to take 2,548 shots of a girl in a bikini that are 70% oof and she's not looking at the camera anyway but never mind, because she's 'hot'. Where there is a demand, there will be supply.
The TS seems to me to be trying to regulate what people want to do through the addition of rules which will bump up the costs. Singapore govt tried that with numerous campaigns not to litter but Keong Saik is still a mess every morning.
The issue isnt the lack of rules, its the fact that the crowd here want to do such things, and until you change the tastes of such folk, they will continue to want to attend such shoots. Attempting to regulate it will just drive this underground and this 'instruction to be a world class photographer' that the TS speaks about will turn into a farce.

The solution? It could range to a moderation of section galleries, or simply to raise the standards for picture submissions. Be harsher in photo critiques. If the photo is crap, its crap, and unless the poster is doing a stop motion, 50 different posts with only 4mm of movement variations should be laughed out of the forums.
Raise the bar and the ones who are truly interested in the genre will stay and contribute. With no outlet to share their shots, some may just leave or become inactive. And when they leave, well then these types of shoots will get less talked about and thus not be so popular.

Social engineering rocks.

[CYRN]

Originally Posted by AverRal Well, we are talking about organised shoots here and yes! They can be regulated, because they have to pay to register. Those registered have to fulfill some guidelines. Shouldn't it be that way? I am open to more ideas too because i am sure there are others who would like to contribute ways to conduct organised shoots professionally.

I re-read the TNP article.

http://tnp.sg/news/story/0,4136,185285,00.html?

And I quote the very opening para.

Quote: INDECENT proposals were the last thing freelance model Averal Lim, 20, expected when she posted pictures of herself on the Clubsnap forum pages about a year ago.

.. and I quote again..

Quote: Though she no longer advertises as a model, Miss Lim said she still receives up to four e-mails a week asking her to give quotes for fetish or nude shoots. She even get requests for social escort services. 'The experience has opened my eyes to the dark side of modelling,' she said.

So, my question is that what does this (the article) have anything to do with Code of Conduct for such shoots... the fact that Services are posted in an open forum. And CS, like it or not, was s source for such "talents scouts" and will now be even more - due to the spotlight thrown by TNP.

Why harp on CS when it's the "market" that is the REAL evil?

[sORe-EyEz]

Originally Posted by Rangefinder_fan Social engineering rocks.

i'm all for engineering the quality of supply!!

[obfuscate]

Originally Posted by AverRal Shouldn't it be the way in the first place? I think club snap has seriously eroded the art of photography by conducting unsupervised shoots at their own discourse. The truth is, photography is a art that needs a master. The standard of photography here is horrible, take a look at model mayhem and deviantart, they are so much advanced in the finer aspects of photography that sometimes when I look at organised shoots I find that they create almost zero value to the photographers and models. There are photographers and models who actually treat this more then just a hobby, it can be a profession.

Just want to clarify a point. CS isn't organising the shoots, the shoot organisers are. CS is just providing a medium for photographers to gather, that's the way I see it. Having followed CS from as far back as 2002 (I think), I would feel more inclined to say that CS has done photography in Singapore a great service.

I understand where you are coming from, I think you are right to do it and I applaud you for doing it. However, I find certain opinions of yours objectionable, and it makes your intentions loose it's meaning and purpose.

If you don't understand what I mean, your situation now is akin to TNP. If someone were to ask me about TNP, I will rubbish the newspaper and the quaility of the articles in it, even if there are good stories.

Make your opinions count.

[night86mare]

Originally Posted by AverRal Shouldn't it be the way in the first place? I think club snap has seriously eroded the art of photography by conducting unsupervised shoots at their own discourse. The truth is, photography is a art that needs a master. The standard of photography here is horrible, take a look at model mayhem and deviantart, they are so much advanced in the finer aspects of photography that sometimes when I look at organised shoots I find that they create almost zero value to the photographers and models. There are photographers and models who actually treat this more then just a hobby, it can be a profession.

deviantart = fine aspect of photography?

gg no re..

i think clubsnap or not, the art of photography , as you call it, will be eroded by humans.

there are also tons of jokers in every other forum i have seen. they just don't get encouraged because the threads are closed and stomped out without remorse. here, we have people pushing the limits.

but it is a thin fine line always, censorship versus quashing of something that is perceived as evil but is not actually evil.

brings to mind one of those email anecdotes, where an old monk brought his young disciple out to travel. on the way they met a pretty young girl who didn't want to cross the river by herself. she requested that the monks help her. without a word, the old monk carried her on his back and brought her to the other side.

a few hours later, the young disciple was still smarting and puzzled. in the end he couldn't take it.

he asked:

"sifu, we are not supposed to carry women or even have contact with them. why did you carry her?"

the old monk replied:

"tudi, i left her at the river bank, but you are still carrying her now."

[AverRal]

Thank you for the very constructive feedback. Here are my views on the issue, my view is not necessary the "correct" view, everyone has a view, I am expressing my views and I am happy that everyone has a different view about this issue, it makes it very interesting to discuss upon.

Originally Posted by CYRN I re-read the TNP article. http://tnp.sg/news/story/0,4136,185285,00.html? And I quote the very opening para. .. and I quote again.. So, my question is that what does this (the article) have anything to do with Code of Conduct for such shoots... the fact that Services are posted in an open forum. And CS, like it or not, was s source for such "talents scouts" and will now be even more - due to the spotlight thrown by TNP. Why harp on CS when it's the "market" that is the REAL evil?

When I was interviewed for the article, I related my experiences to the reporter. So, I can clearly see things from the perspective of a model as I have been through it before. And I felt that if the forum was more stringent in its policies, these black sheeps would not be around to tarnish the image of photographers. Hence, instead of complaining and gossiping like what 99% of the people do all the time, I am trying to contribute my ideas to make this community a better and safer place for the models and photographers alike.

Originally Posted by obfuscate Just want to clarify a point. CS isn't organising the shoots, the shoot organisers are. CS is just providing a medium for photographers to gather, that's the way I see it. Having followed CS from as far back as 2002 (I think), I would feel more inclined to say that CS has done photography in Singapore a great service.

CS authorises the organisers to conduct the shoots, they are the medium responsible for the agents who conduct their services, furthermore, they do earn advertising revenue. It is only right that they have to play a role in the regulation of organised shoots.

Originally Posted by Rangefinder_fan I dont see what the whole big deal is. So these guys want to take 2,548 shots of a girl in a bikini that are 70% oof and she's not looking at the camera anyway but never mind, because she's 'hot'. Where there is a demand, there will be supply. The TS seems to me to be trying to regulate what people want to do through the addition of rules which will bump up the costs. Singapore govt tried that with numerous campaigns not to litter but Keong Saik is still a mess every morning. The issue isnt the lack of rules, its the fact that the crowd here want to do such things, and until you change the tastes of such folk, they will continue to want to attend such shoots. Attempting to regulate it will just drive this underground and this 'instruction to be a world class photographer' that the TS speaks about will turn into a farce. The solution? It could range to a moderation of section galleries, or simply to raise the standards for picture submissions. Be harsher in photo critiques. If the photo is crap, its crap, and unless the poster is doing a stop motion, 50 different posts with only 4mm of movement variations should be laughed out of the forums. Raise the bar and the ones who are truly interested in the genre will stay and contribute. With no outlet to share their shots, some may just leave or become inactive. And when they leave, well then these types of shoots will get less talked about and thus not be so popular. Social engineering rocks.

You see, your suggestion is focused on the end result (moderation of photo galleries) but the source of this unprofessional photos come from the organised shoots ( in huge quantities ) .

I am more concerned about the "source" rather than the "end result" as the end result is very subjective ( photography is an art form ). If the "source" (which is organised shoots) is conducted professionally under guidance from a mentor the overall quality of the photos will improve as well.

[obfuscate]

Originally Posted by AverRal CS authorises the organisers to conduct the shoots, they are the medium responsible for the agents who conduct their services, furthermore, they do earn advertising revenue. It is only right that they have to play a role in the regulation of organised shoots.

Again, I do not agree.

CS does not authorise the shoots, it allows the organisers to use it as a medium get participants, it's not different from a newspaer or magazine. I do not know the monetary arrangements if there are any.

I would say that CS does have a right to decide what and who they it want to be associated with, but I don't believe that it has any mandate to regulate the actual shoot itself as that falls in the domian of the shoot organiser. A better term would be that CS can influence an outcome, but that is definitley not a right.

[AverRal]

Originally Posted by obfuscate I would say that CS does have a right to decide what and who they it want to be associated with, but I don't believe that it has any mandate to regulate the actual shoot itself as that falls in the domian of the shoot organiser. A better term would be that CS can influence an outcome, but that is definitley not a right.

They can regulate the kind of organised shoots that is made available to the members. It is in their control, newspapers and magazines control the kind of advertisers they want, especially those that are unethical ( like advertising slimming pills on a teenage girls magazine can spark a controversy ) . I am not sure if you have experience in marketing, but being a marketing student, different platforms target different audiences based their content.

Clubsnap can definitely shift their target audience from photographers with ill intentions to photographers who are genuinely into the art of photography by introducing regulations for organised shoots. It is definitely a way to go.