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Thread: Do you, AD Photog, mind having their relative to be the 2nd photog (paid or unpaid)?

  1. #21

    Default Re: Do you, AD Photog, mind having their relative to be the 2nd photog (paid or unpa

    Quote Originally Posted by shinken View Post
    Yes, I would mind. If theyr'e just taking casual snap shots, I don't. But if they're so much as functioning as a '2nd photog' or 'backup photog', I have a clause in the contract (which I will take my time to explain and justify to my clients) that will release me of my obligations.

    Reason no. 1: Most of these '2nd photogs' or 'backup photogs' are enthusiasts and passionate about photography. In all the excitement to put their knowledge into practice, sometimes it is difficult, or even unreasonable to expect them to remember to give priority to the official photographer. A photographer's natural instinct is to get the best position, best angle possible. When these friends or relatives assume these positions, it means one thing - I have lost that position. Many a times the friend/family would show initiative and try not to be too obstrusive. But there are also those confident and swaggering ones who moves into your frame just before you click your shutter. That one moment is lost forever to me. And if it's a significant-enough moment, it's one moment lost forever to the couple -because I will not use any works of photographers other than those hired by my company, in albums produced by my company.

    Reason no. 2: I don't like to have photographers in my frames. Friends and family who're taking candid shots, yes. But not those DSLR with grips and mega flashes. Even my own employed assistants are told not to get into my frames. This is one of the very first things I brief my assistants on. This is usually shared by my clients. But when clients express that they don't mind, I will have to explain that it's my artistic preference. If it's intentional of me to capture a friend or relative inside my composition, then of course there's no issue. However, there're also moments whereby a over-zealous friend/family would take the opposite angle and flash into my frame and ruin my exposure. Although I have been indemnified when these happens, that moment is forever lost. Clients have to respect my preference as an artist if they were to decide to go with me. If they see their wedding day photography as a consolidation of snapshots taken by different people from different angles, then they would be using the wrong guy if they were to hire me.

    At the end of the day, this is what I try to make clear to my clients. They have decided that my presentation, images in the portfolio, samples and so on justify my worth. When they hire me, they feel that I'm 'worth' hiring. But if there are circumstances that are introduced (which could have been within control) that would interfere with the workflow, then I would not be allowed to do my job in the best way possible.

    I'm sure that in this digital age, everyone (family and guests) can be involved in the wedding day more intimately through photography. My illustrations are of course, more extreme ones which most people don't encounter, or don't notice from their perspective. If fellow passionate photographer hobbyists want to be involved, by all means if they don't get into the way. That's the most important thing we're concerned about. Getting in front of the main photographer's frame is getting in the way. Getting into the frame of the photographer's composition (ala, a 2nd photographer style, not 'uncle bob' style) is getting in the way. Doing all the family group shots that the couple wants in the album is getting in the way (groups hate to pose for 2 different photographers for 4 shots. Eats up photographer's coverage time too).

    I understand how couples want to allow their friends and family to be involved in terms of photography. My bottomline is, they've paid me to do my job, so as long as I'm allowed to do my job in the best possible way, then - please let me do my job.
    Hi shinken,

    Thanks for your very specified explaination

    if the AD photog allows me to join in, i will bare the above points you have mentioned embedded into my thick skull and i will check with him the Dos and Don'ts for me =)
    i totally agree that he has a job to be done =)

  2. #22

    Default Re: Do you, AD Photog, mind having their relative to be the 2nd photog (paid or unpa

    Quote Originally Posted by synapseman View Post
    So to summarise, we all don't really mind other photographers being around, provided they don't get in our way.

    Sometimes it's difficult. One wedding I shoot, got no less than SIX DSLR toting uncles around. Most of the time, they try to be considerate, but crucial moments like march-in during banquet, etc they get over excited and cramp up the entire walkway. If I had headache, think about the official videographer! In such cases, where we got no time to be nice, sometimes got no choice but to be a bit rude and start elbowing our way through, and this could lead to misunderstanding.
    hi synapseman,

    Well i agree as well =) have noticed the same thing, everyone wants to get a close up of the march in, including those with P&S. but oh well hope they get educated some how =)

  3. #23

    Default Re: Do you, AD Photog, mind having their relative to be the 2nd photog (paid or unpa

    Quote Originally Posted by synapseman View Post
    So to summarise, we all don't really mind other photographers being around, provided they don't get in our way.

    Sometimes it's difficult. One wedding I shoot, got no less than SIX DSLR toting uncles around. Most of the time, they try to be considerate, but crucial moments like march-in during banquet, etc they get over excited and cramp up the entire walkway. If I had headache, think about the official videographer! In such cases, where we got no time to be nice, sometimes got no choice but to be a bit rude and start elbowing our way through, and this could lead to misunderstanding.
    Mine case was a video, that fellow went close to the couple during march in, no choice as no time to lose, i pulled the collar of that fellow, taking pics and dragging him backwards, causing me no good shots, all wide angles.
    Eat breath LIVERPOOL!!!

  4. #24

    Default Re: Do you, AD Photog, mind having their relative to be the 2nd photog (paid or unpa

    Quote Originally Posted by fotoudavid View Post
    Mine case was a video, that fellow went close to the couple during march in, no choice as no time to lose, i pulled the collar of that fellow, taking pics and dragging him backwards, causing me no good shots, all wide angles.
    haha Sounds very Dramatic hehe

  5. #25

    Default Re: Do you, AD Photog, mind having their relative to be the 2nd photog (paid or unpa

    I don't mind now. I used to mind, explained to couple and those involved what is happening, but had a pretty ugly case that the photographer still did not get it. In the end had to get the couple to sort of stop that PG from shooting and asking the wife to monitor him. That farker told me where to stand man.

    So I thought, worth it or not. Nowadays I just indemnify myself from these things by putting them in the FAQ. LOL! I tell the couple once and its up to them whether to take action or not. I do not touch or come into contact with any of the guests. Seriously why bother, just ans to your paymaster.

    Actually pretty standard SOP what....if the guests fight or what, the hotel just inform, cannot interject. All else fails, call police.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Do you, AD Photog, mind having their relative to be the 2nd photog (paid or unpa

    Quote Originally Posted by Filbertoh View Post
    haha Sounds very Dramatic hehe
    Cos that march in very short only the distance....sigh.....
    Eat breath LIVERPOOL!!!

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Do you, AD Photog, mind having their relative to be the 2nd photog (paid or unpa

    Quote Originally Posted by Filbertoh View Post
    haha Sounds very Dramatic hehe
    any better solution?

    tell the couple: "Hey, can you two march in again? cos your friend blocking me all the way while take video of you two marching in" ?

    or shove that fellow one side?
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  8. #28
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    Default Re: Do you, AD Photog, mind having their relative to be the 2nd photog (paid or unpa

    Quote Originally Posted by JacePhoto View Post
    frankly, i met some nice uncle, aunties who are just some happy clickers with their small pocket cameras. That, i dont mind.

    For other types, aiyoh.... their interference is bad....
    2nd photog... need to communicate upfront so we focus on different things and
    not affect each other.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Do you, AD Photog, mind having their relative to be the 2nd photog (paid or unpa

    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights View Post
    any better solution?

    tell the couple: "Hey, can you two march in again? cos your friend blocking me all the way while take video of you two marching in" ?

    or shove that fellow one side?
    I did this when I was a newbie. The videog scratched me in my back to give me a 'reminder' i am in her way,. Lesson learned.

  10. #30

    Default Re: Do you, AD Photog, mind having their relative to be the 2nd photog (paid or unpa

    Quote Originally Posted by DiGdUb View Post
    attended my cousin's wedding recently, from the morning shots, can see the main photog was a total disaster, harsh flash, flat pics, blur pics, etc. dinner time march in, he was always behind the couple. at the 2nd march in, i took the initiative and went in front of the couple and took some shots. mine turned out pretty well, hope the main photog's dinner shots will be much better than his morning ones, or else my cousin will be super disappointed. i think sometimes if the 2nd photog sees that the main one is struggling, perhaps he shld help out a bit.

    woo. then tha mean , u cousin din do homework when engaging the main PG.. if main Pg can handle.. there isnt a need for backup.. n 2nd Photographer usually place a different roles

  11. #31

    Default Re: Do you, AD Photog, mind having their relative to be the 2nd photog (paid or unpa

    Quote Originally Posted by Luval View Post
    woo. then tha mean , u cousin din do homework when engaging the main PG.. if main Pg can handle.. there isnt a need for backup.. n 2nd Photographer usually place a different roles
    What to do when people are still asking for 1.2k photo + video. But the banquet is 888++ with 35 tables (and many more people are not paiseh to give 20-50 angpows nowadays), honeymoon go to Egypt, and prewedding 40 pcs pictures + design?

  12. #32

    Default Re: Do you, AD Photog, mind having their relative to be the 2nd photog (paid or unpa

    Quote Originally Posted by 2100 View Post
    What to do when people are still asking for 1.2k photo + video. But the banquet is 888++ with 35 tables (and many more people are not paiseh to give 20-50 angpows nowadays), honeymoon go to Egypt, and prewedding 40 pcs pictures + design?
    it their lost that have that kind of PG loh.

  13. #33

    Default Re: Do you, AD Photog, mind having their relative to be the 2nd photog (paid or unpa

    Quote Originally Posted by 2100 View Post
    (and many more people are not paiseh to give 20-50 angpows nowadays
    why must feel paiseh?
    thought the angpows is a gesture?
    or has it now evolved into a requirement with minimum amount?

    jude

  14. #34

    Default Re: Do you, AD Photog, mind having their relative to be the 2nd photog (paid or unpa

    I am one of those newbie, amateurish hobbyist who like to take pictures at wedding for fun too



    But there are a few rules that I remind myself:

    1. Do do stand in front of the main photographer a.k.a block him
    2. Do not stand in the frame if you notice the main photographer is going to snap at your direction (this is a bit tricky at times and sometimes I cannot react first enough but make an effort to try?) (The second wedding that I went, I learnt to stand at right angle, meaning if he is shooting North South, you take from East West, but not too close, in case he goes wide)
    3. Do not use flash unless you are at another corner, taking some other things.)
    4. Do not kaypoh add opinions on what you think when he /she is trying to get a shoot
    5. Do not go and squeeze in and try to snap when the main photographer has arranged a deliberate pose or you try to do take the same thing ( a bit...errrr)
    6. Do not go close up and take up couple's time (ask them to pose here or there) for your shoot when the main photographer is there. (He need the time) Unless he is far away taking some other things.
    7. Lastly, put yourself in the main photographer's shoes and ask what are the things that the 2nd or 3rd photographer will affect you, and give some thoughts on that?
    8. In general, do not do things that will jeopardize your friend or relative's wedding.
    9. For march past...dun need to fight , just give way..as there is very little time for him/her
    10. Keep cool and think

    Some of the above, I learnt from reading and some from actual experiences. ( I used flash instinctly for a few photos for one of my friend's wedding and then....I panicked, upon realising that it could affect the main photographer. I feel so bad until today. (Sorry Mr tinydot, I am not sure if my initial use of flash affected you during CH & KP wedding, anyway, lesson learnt, Sorry
    Last edited by davee78; 27th November 2008 at 06:35 PM.

  15. #35

    Default Re: Do you, AD Photog, mind having their relative to be the 2nd photog (paid or unpa

    Quote Originally Posted by bengchiat View Post
    why must feel paiseh?
    thought the angpows is a gesture?
    or has it now evolved into a requirement with minimum amount?

    jude
    It is supposed to be a gesture of course, but when all the guests really return 20 bucks, 40 bucks.... and you lost 20K due to this + other bills to settle and you tally up your spendings (HDB, honeymoon etc), it isn't easy to smile.
    I ever come across whereby the couple ran into financial trouble coz of overspending on banquet (ie BIG) and could not pay up video/photo. 1 went bankrupt, 1 tae siao and returned only 6 months after pix were ready. 1 couple both working in the same company were even retrenched on their big day, but i was lucky because I always collect payment on the big day.

    Many other stories around too. For one of them the funny thing is, the parents live in landed property. Its a "face" thingy I guess.
    Last edited by 2100; 27th November 2008 at 06:40 PM.

  16. #36

    Default Re: Do you, AD Photog, mind having their relative to be the 2nd photog (paid or unpa

    Quote Originally Posted by davee78 View Post
    (Sorry Mr tinydot, I am not sure if my initial use of flash affected you during CH & KP wedding, anyway, lesson learnt, Sorry
    Actually after so many weddings, I have never been seriously affected by others flashes, small P&S or flash guns. 1/60s v short dah... Perhaps 1 or 2 shots out of 1000 shots can see the other flash.

  17. #37
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    Default Re: Do you, AD Photog, mind having their relative to be the 2nd photog (paid or unpa

    Quote Originally Posted by bengchiat View Post
    why must feel paiseh?
    thought the angpows is a gesture?
    or has it now evolved into a requirement with minimum amount?

    jude
    Nowsaday, people actually keep track of who gave how much angpow. Got check against namelist summore.
    Sony Alpha system user. www.pbase.com/synapseman

  18. #38

    Default Re: Do you, AD Photog, mind having their relative to be the 2nd photog (paid or unpa

    Quote Originally Posted by 2100 View Post
    Actually after so many weddings, I have never been seriously affected by others flashes, small P&S or flash guns. 1/60s v short dah... Perhaps 1 or 2 shots out of 1000 shots can see the other flash.
    Exactly.

    But I guess its the red focusing beam, or focus assist beams from other cameras sometimes shines on people's face when you are taking pictures.

    So I keep it off. Anyway I do too much street in stealth mode so the irritating focus assist beam is never on.

    Flashgun also sends out that red beam.
    WTB Manfrotto RC4 L Bracket

  19. #39

    Default Re: Do you, AD Photog, mind having their relative to be the 2nd photog (paid or unpa

    I helped out at 2 of my cousins' weddings and I am very grateful to the generousity of their photographers. They were both very kind to share their experiences and skills with me. OF course I also have to be "automatic" to avoid getting in their way...had great fun and learnt alot...I treat them as my masters on both days...


  20. #40

    Default Re: Do you, AD Photog, mind having their relative to be the 2nd photog (paid or unpa

    Quote Originally Posted by davee78 View Post
    I am one of those newbie, amateurish hobbyist who like to take pictures at wedding for fun too



    But there are a few rules that I remind myself:

    1. Do do stand in front of the main photographer a.k.a block him
    2. Do not stand in the frame if you notice the main photographer is going to snap at your direction (this is a bit tricky at times and sometimes I cannot react first enough but make an effort to try?) (The second wedding that I went, I learnt to stand at right angle, meaning if he is shooting North South, you take from East West, but not too close, in case he goes wide)
    3. Do not use flash unless you are at another corner, taking some other things.)
    4. Do not kaypoh add opinions on what you think when he /she is trying to get a shoot
    5. Do not go and squeeze in and try to snap when the main photographer has arranged a deliberate pose or you try to do take the same thing ( a bit...errrr)
    6. Do not go close up and take up couple's time (ask them to pose here or there) for your shoot when the main photographer is there. (He need the time) Unless he is far away taking some other things.
    7. Lastly, put yourself in the main photographer's shoes and ask what are the things that the 2nd or 3rd photographer will affect you, and give some thoughts on that?
    8. In general, do not do things that will jeopardize your friend or relative's wedding.
    9. For march past...dun need to fight , just give way..as there is very little time for him/her
    10. Keep cool and think

    Some of the above, I learnt from reading and some from actual experiences. ( I used flash instinctly for a few photos for one of my friend's wedding and then....I panicked, upon realising that it could affect the main photographer. I feel so bad until today. (Sorry Mr tinydot, I am not sure if my initial use of flash affected you during CH & KP wedding, anyway, lesson learnt, Sorry
    Good points! I just wished everyone who was a hobbyist and wanted to try out wedding photography would be as "automatic" . There are really good folks like you who respect that the paid photographer has his job to do and has to deliver on his job too. Unfortunately, not everyone is like that!

    Don't worry about CH&KP's wedding hah...if it really affected me since I don't use a flash myself, I would've politely told you on the day! You were good to stand out of the way and cover other things *clap clap*

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