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Thread: Underage is still Underage

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Underage is still Underage

    Quote Originally Posted by aselley View Post
    I agree with the hullabaloo...but why do you think it has?

    Do you really think here will be immune to the same? Or rather that its just a question of time before such "hullabaloo" also finds rank here?

    Is it better to work for it and for photography, or wait until its too late?
    i question what's the point of constantly looking over your shoulder and jumping at shadows when u have to recongize the most u can to is try to keep your (i mean in general here) child safe...and not turn overzealous and lynch innocent people.
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  2. #22

    Default Re: Underage is still Underage

    threadstarter -

    there is no point dragging in the legal issue here; if you want to make a case, i think personally and in all fairness, only something can be made out of the moral perspective.

    and since everyone has differing standards of morality, you are never going to be able to generate a fruitful discussion. my advice is to leave it.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Underage is still Underage

    Quote Originally Posted by TheQuestion View Post
    i question what's the point of constantly looking over your shoulder and jumping at shadows when u have to recongize the most u can to is try to keep your (i mean in general here) child safe...and not turn overzealous and lynch innocent people.
    i personally think it will be very ironic if the parent accusing you of shooting his child goes home, and starts posting up nudies of his kiddos on the net, quoting them as "good, clean family photographs".
    Last edited by night86mare; 24th November 2008 at 06:56 PM.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Underage is still Underage

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    i personally think it will be very ironic if the parent accusing you of shooting his child goes home, and starts posting up nudies of his kiddos on the net, quoting them as "good, clean family photographs".
    that's my point u can be vigilant but do it in a rational way and not jump at shadows...i think u've been watching too much law and order svu liao
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  5. #25

    Default Re: Underage is still Underage

    Quote Originally Posted by TheQuestion View Post
    that's my point u can be vigilant but do it in a rational way and not jump at shadows...i think u've been watching too much law and order svu liao
    nah, i didn't disagree with you

    i'm in the land of the paedophile-haters, tell me about it.

    there is a fine balance between being vigilant and yes, jumping at shadows, and believe me, here they have crossed it way long ago. i usually make sure my camera is turned down when i see a kid approaching; after a few bad experiences i don't need to go through that anymore.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Underage is still Underage

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    nah, i didn't disagree with you

    i'm in the land of the paedophile-haters, tell me about it.

    there is a fine balance between being vigilant and yes, jumping at shadows, and believe me, here they have crossed it way long ago. i usually make sure my camera is turned down when i see a kid approaching; after a few bad experiences i don't need to go through that anymore.
    say so la!
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  7. #27

    Default Re: Underage is still Underage

    Quote Originally Posted by TheQuestion View Post
    say so la!


    alamak, i throw in my 2 cents worth only when quoting you.. not necessarily always argue against what.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Underage is still Underage

    Quote Originally Posted by TheQuestion View Post
    let them come lor as long as u didn't do anything wrong what's there to fear?
    I wonder if that's what Goplan Nair thought when they came for him, "I have not done anything wrong"

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    there is no point dragging in the legal issue here; if you want to make a case, i think personally and in all fairness, only something can be made out of the moral perspective.

    and since everyone has differing standards of morality, you are never going to be able to generate a fruitful discussion. my advice is to leave it.
    Maybe it is best to leave it, but as a thought, how does the moral really matter? Since, as you say, "everyone has differing standards", then the only measure we will ever have is a legal one. And we can have such limits thrust upon us, or we can be part of the process that creates such.
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  9. #29
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Underage is still Underage

    Okay lets get one thing straight first before we continue.

    Are you against underaged modelling of ANY kind, or only those involving underaged nude modelling (ie so long as non-nude, its okay)? There's so many emotive points you made but I can't tell what your stand is.

    Second, for the portions in red, that is not what I"m saying. I'm saying that if you are saying something is illegal, you need to have the law saying so. Emotive moral stands are not sufficient for a conviction.

    For example, some may feel morally its not right to take a photograph of someone on the MRT and then post it up. However, legally, there is nothing wrong with it and the subject can't do squat.

    Finally, by selectively quoting, I take it that you concede to the remaining points and have no rejoinder on those issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by aselley View Post
    You are right, there is no such thing as International Law. However in the area of pedophilia law enforcement agencies not only in this region but especially around the world are becoming increasingly cooperative. In the post 9/11 world these intelligence agencies regularly engage in discourse, and I am almost positive that if your underage images found themselves on the computer of someone arrested in the USA it would not take long for them to be tracked to you, which would soon be followed by the Singaporean Police knocking on your door at the request of the US Embassy and the office stationed there for the sole purpose of aiding local agencies in stopping underage exploitation...esp. sexual.

    As for posting in Singapore, on a Singapore Site and being prosecuted in another country, one only needs to look at the legal defamation suits launched in Singapore Courts on behalf of the Government against things published overseas both in print and online to know that you can be prosecuted across Int'l borders.

    Look I understand what you are saying in that in art the age of the model should not matter, that the art should stand for itself and should be beyond the pettiness of such legal, ethical and even moral question. It should be seen as Art and celebrated as such.

    But that is not the case, its not even close and to pretend it is, will be to risk first the ire of those opposed to you and without the openess to understand and later to incurr their punishments and limits to freedom.

  10. #30

    Default Re: Underage is still Underage

    Quote Originally Posted by aselley View Post

    Maybe it is best to leave it, but as a thought, how does the moral really matter? Since, as you say, "everyone has differing standards", then the only measure we will ever have is a legal one. And we can have such limits thrust upon us, or we can be part of the process that creates such.
    that is true

    so how about child models? where do you draw the lines?

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Underage is still Underage

    Quote Originally Posted by aselley View Post
    I wonder if that's what Goplan Nair thought when they came for him, "I have not done anything wrong"



    Maybe it is best to leave it, but as a thought, how does the moral really matter? Since, as you say, "everyone has differing standards", then the only measure we will ever have is a legal one. And we can have such limits thrust upon us, or we can be part of the process that creates such.
    Nair was stupid enuff to think the free speech laws of america applied to here and openly insult the judge here. or the fact that he's a member of the california bar meant that he was gonna get a slap on his wrist. His only crime aside from being stupid and mocking the government WHILE in SG is that he displayed a contempt of court. So i dun blame the judges of locking him up though how it happened is another matter.
    Last edited by TheQuestion; 24th November 2008 at 07:25 PM.
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  12. #32
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Underage is still Underage

    One of the extremely rare times I actually agree with your point of view You are right, there is simply not much of a legal stand to take here.

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    threadstarter -

    there is no point dragging in the legal issue here; if you want to make a case, i think personally and in all fairness, only something can be made out of the moral perspective.

    and since everyone has differing standards of morality, you are never going to be able to generate a fruitful discussion. my advice is to leave it.

  13. #33
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Underage is still Underage

    Eh, lets not go into politics here because thats the surest way to get this thread shut down. The GN case is clearly politically involved - you need to read up on the history and sequence of events ending in his arrest before you understand the full picture - and I'm talking about years of history..

    Since you now are leaving the moral stand out of it, lets go on to the legal can we? Do provide legal authorities for your position that there is an issue with "underaged" modelling.

    Quote Originally Posted by aselley View Post
    I wonder if that's what Goplan Nair thought when they came for him, "I have not done anything wrong"

    Maybe it is best to leave it, but as a thought, how does the moral really matter? Since, as you say, "everyone has differing standards", then the only measure we will ever have is a legal one. And we can have such limits thrust upon us, or we can be part of the process that creates such.

  14. #34

    Default Re: Underage is still Underage

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    One of the extremely rare times I actually agree with your point of view You are right, there is simply not much of a legal stand to take here.
    at the same time i do hope that for any underage shots the organiser is present to ensure that everything is fine; i'm sure you would not disagree with that; it works both ways - both to protect the model AND the photographers. in fact for all shots this should be the case; but i have seen citings that this is not so.

    then again, there is the issue of maturity being nothing to do with age, but at least under legal boundaries, a non-underage model has to take responsibility for her own actions.

  15. #35

    Default Re: Underage is still Underage

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    Are you against underaged modelling of ANY kind, or only those involving underaged nude modelling (ie so long as non-nude, its okay)? There's so many emotive points you made but I can't tell what your stand is.
    No I am not, I even see the artistic merit in some of Bill Henson's work and that is clearly underage and nude. But I also see the value of a Model release and for an underage model that means parental permission. But you pretty clearly stated that you did not want the idea of permission and MR's to continue, very clearly stating that age should not matter in the area of photography.

    I on the other hand believe age does matter and that if situations or rather accusations of the type TNP leveled are to be prevented then the photographer has to ensure that he is nothing but professional.
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  16. #36
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Underage is still Underage

    The only reason why I said MRs should not be in this discussion is because age has no bearing on whether an MR is required or not.

    As stated previously, even in US, age has no bearing on the laws governing MRs.

    Your main point here is about age, so lets stick to it. You said that age does matter. Please let us know the legal basis for saying so.

    If it is your pure moralistic stand, then clarify so that it is your pure ideal for underaged models not to engage in modelling and this does not mean that it is illegal or otherwise legally objectionable for such activities.

    So far all I hear are moralistic views, not legal ones.


    Quote Originally Posted by aselley View Post
    No I am not, I even see the artistic merit in some of Bill Henson's work and that is clearly underage and nude. But I also see the value of a Model release and for an underage model that means parental permission. But you pretty clearly stated that you did not want the idea of permission and MR's to continue, very clearly stating that age should not matter in the area of photography.

    I on the other hand believe age does matter and that if situations or rather accusations of the type TNP leveled are to be prevented then the photographer has to ensure that he is nothing but professional.

  17. #37
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Underage is still Underage

    Both young and old models need to take responsibiilty for their own actions. There is no distinction between either.

    In any case, I'll still stand by my stand there there is nothing illegal or legally objectionable about underaged modelling.

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    at the same time i do hope that for any underage shots the organiser is present to ensure that everything is fine; i'm sure you would not disagree with that; it works both ways - both to protect the model AND the photographers. in fact for all shots this should be the case; but i have seen citings that this is not so.

    then again, there is the issue of maturity being nothing to do with age, but at least under legal boundaries, a non-underage model has to take responsibility for her own actions.

  18. #38

    Default Re: Underage is still Underage

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    Both young and old models need to take responsibiilty for their own actions. There is no distinction between either.

    In any case, I'll still stand by my stand there there is nothing illegal or legally objectionable about underaged modelling.
    From the original "Sex Sells" thread

    1.) nude and semi nude photograph are allowed in Singapore, but with a legal age,
    2.) In the statutes, chapter 38, Part 1, 2. "child" means a person who is below the age of 14 years; "young person" means a person who is 14 years of age or above and below the age of 16 years.
    and....

    7. Any person who, in public or private
    (a) commits or abets the commission of or procures or attempts to procure the commission by any person of any obscene or indecent act with any child or young person; or
    (b) procures or attempts to procure the commission of any obscene or indecent act by any child or young person, shall be guilty of an offense and shall be liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding $5,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years or to both and, in the case of a second or subsequent conviction, to a fine not exceeding $10,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 4 years or to both.

    So what constitute of obscene, under chapter 338

    Meaning of obscene
    3. For the purposes of this Act, a publication is obscene if its effect or (where the publication comprises 2 or more distinct parts or items) the effect of any one of its parts or items is, if taken as a whole, such as to tend to deprave and corrupt persons who are likely, having regard to all relevant circumstances, to read, see or hear the matter contained or embodied in it.

    But you discounted that quote in the previous thread saying that you can't use one part of the statutes as a definition in another part of the Act. But in fact you can...that's how the law works.

    So basically while I take the long view and look at 21 and the legal entry age of contract as my safe measure, you could call me a little paranoid in that regard. The law is very clear in that anything that may be regarded as obscene and involve anyone under the age of 16 is illegal. This Act would apply to the photographer and the shoot organiser.
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  19. #39

    Default Re: Underage is still Underage

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    Both young and old models need to take responsibiilty for their own actions. There is no distinction between either.

    In any case, I'll still stand by my stand there there is nothing illegal or legally objectionable about underaged modelling.
    As long as the modeling is not seen as being obscene you are correct.
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  20. #40
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    Default Re: Underage is still Underage

    Quote Originally Posted by aselley View Post
    As long as the modeling is not seen as being obscene you are correct.
    that is up for lawyers to argue and the courts to decide.
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