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Thread: Underage is still Underage

  1. #1

    Default Underage is still Underage

    I was going to post this in the thread from which inspired it:
    http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showthread.php?t=440225
    but decided it was not place to usurp the thread where a photographer is seeking real input into his work.

    I guess that in the face of the TNP/"nude" sensationalist "journalism" I am still amazed by the number of photographers who see age as irrelevant and who participate in shoots with underage models without a thought to any legal or illegal activity.

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    There is no concept of underaged when doing photography. We are not talking about sex or statutory rape here.
    No what you are talking about is "exploitation of a minor" So while you may actually agree with that statement...the law does not, the "sensationalism of the TNP article certainly has leanings that are not" and if you look at the recent Bill Henson photography scandal in Australia, then its safe to say that the majority of the public see underage as a very important issue when it comes to photography. So while it is nice to suggest "art is simply art", the recent controversies, the complete lack of Model Releases, suggests that this is in fact not really the case.

    An interesting look at both sides of the Bill Henson controversy

    http://www.artnewsblog.com/2008/10/b...ontroversy.htm

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesi...phsarentsexual
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    Default Re: Underage is still Underage

    shouldn't u start by defining what is under age? and last time i checked the model is 20 yrs old so i dun see what the fuss is about that she's underaged. also as long as the photographer is not engaged in child porn i dun see why there's an issue about being underage again.
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    Default Re: Underage is still Underage

    Quote Originally Posted by aselley View Post
    the complete lack of Model Releases, suggests that this is in fact not really the case.
    i don't understand what a model release or lack thereof has got anything to do with it?
    please explain

  4. #4

    Default Re: Underage is still Underage

    Quote Originally Posted by TheQuestion View Post
    shouldn't u start by defining what is under age? and last time i checked the model is 20 yrs old so i dun see what the fuss is about that she's underaged. also as long as the photographer is not engaged in child porn i dun see why there's an issue about being underage again.
    I don't think he was specifically refering to Zoey ... but rather the state that was made ...

    "There is no concept of underaged when doing photography. We are not talking about sex or statutory rape here."
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Underage is still Underage

    Quote Originally Posted by ortega View Post
    i don't understand what a model release or lack thereof has got anything to do with it?
    please explain
    My understanding is that in Singapore someone under the age of 21 cannot enter into a legal contract. They are for the intent of legal recourse judged to be a minor. Also the issue is one of Int'l law, what is considered Porn varies from country to country, and if you post online you can be prosecuted in another country regardless of your residence status or geographic location.

    A Model Release is a contract between the photographer and the model (or his/her guardians) that outlines the parameters of the shoot, the usage of the produced images and protects the interests of both.

    In light of the TNP article, one of the main points of the article was the "click" happy nature of the nude photography and the payment for such. If you read the follow on page with "Amber" the article closed with the idea that such bikini or lingerie shoots are often conducted by sleazy men who "encourage" the shoot to go beyond. Many readers will leave the article with that image...they will leave it and take only that closing point from it.

    If you as a photographer want a model to take you seriously, then you need to be professional about your art, and working with a model includes a release, it secures you, it secures the model and it lets her know you have no plans to use the images inappropriately and gives her legal recourse if you do.
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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Underage is still Underage

    Quote Originally Posted by aselley View Post
    My understanding is that in Singapore someone under the age of 21 cannot enter into a legal contract. They are for the intent of legal recourse judged to be a minor. Also the issue is one of Int'l law, what is considered Porn varies from country to country, and if you post online you can be prosecuted in another country regardless of your residence status or geographic location.

    A Model Release is a contract between the photographer and the model (or his/her guardians) that outlines the parameters of the shoot, the usage of the produced images and protects the interests of both.

    In light of the TNP article, one of the main points of the article was the "click" happy nature of the nude photography and the payment for such. If you read the follow on page with "Amber" the article closed with the idea that such bikini or lingerie shoots are often conducted by sleazy men who "encourage" the shoot to go beyond. Many readers will leave the article with that image...they will leave it and take only that closing point from it.

    If you as a photographer want a model to take you seriously, then you need to be professional about your art, and working with a model includes a release, it secures you, it secures the model and it lets her know you have no plans to use the images inappropriately and gives her legal recourse if you do.
    the newspaper forgot to point out that the models involved with the sleaze it highlighted are of the legal consenting age.
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  7. #7

    Default Re: Underage is still Underage

    Maybe coming from Australia I am a little sensitive to this issue...since "underage" is something that increasingly makes headlines for all the wrong reasons. I mean it is now frowned upon for a single guy to be taking photos at a children's sporting event, least they be predators. It is illegal to take photos on Bondi Beach. And while the Beach Inspectors try to be realistic about this iconic piece of sand and its tourism draw, under the laws now in place something like Max Dupains famous photo(s) would be impossible to take.

    http://www.chantel.id.au/maxdupain/Fgallery3-1.jpg

    http://pieceofglass.blox.pl/resource/maxdupain_5.jpg

    So I guess with what I see happening elsewhere and with increasingly the breaking down of geographic borders I am worried for photographers here and for the hobby...and wonder at what point will it also become illegal to engage innocently without molestation directed at or accusations of directed by. And I feel that a place like CS is well placed to ensure that the art or photography and the perception of photographers can be preserved and elevated to a point of not just tolerance but acceptance.

    Would you ever want to see it get to the paparazzi stage that exists in other countries? Or to be told that you could not take photos in Boat Quay or on Sentosa?
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    Default Re: Underage is still Underage

    Quote Originally Posted by aselley View Post
    Maybe coming from Australia I am a little sensitive to this issue...since "underage" is something that increasingly makes headlines for all the wrong reasons. I mean it is now frowned upon for a single guy to be taking photos at a children's sporting event, least they be predators. It is illegal to take photos on Bondi Beach. And while the Beach Inspectors try to be realistic about this iconic piece of sand and its tourism draw, under the laws now in place something like Max Dupains famous photo(s) would be impossible to take.

    http://www.chantel.id.au/maxdupain/Fgallery3-1.jpg

    http://pieceofglass.blox.pl/resource/maxdupain_5.jpg

    So I guess with what I see happening elsewhere and with increasingly the breaking down of geographic borders I am worried for photographers here and for the hobby...and wonder at what point will it also become illegal to engage innocently without molestation directed at or accusations of directed by. And I feel that a place like CS is well placed to ensure that the art or photography and the perception of photographers can be preserved and elevated to a point of not just tolerance but acceptance.

    Would you ever want to see it get to the paparazzi stage that exists in other countries? Or to be told that you could not take photos in Boat Quay or on Sentosa?
    thing is that this isn't child porn yet.nor are the photogs shooting children...so what's the hullabaloo? also note looking at your zenfolio did u even entertain the possibility that the import models u so proudly display there are under 21?
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Underage is still Underage

    Quote Originally Posted by TheQuestion View Post
    the newspaper forgot to point out that the models involved with the sleaze it highlighted are of the legal consenting age.
    If she was 20, she was of legal consenting age to have sex, not to enter a legal contract.

    As has been said elsewhere there is a lot of "grey" in this area and I, for one, would want to tread very carefully lest someone decide that an example needs to be made.
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  10. #10
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Underage is still Underage

    No issues, I was wondering whether to start one as well to queel the misundersatndings.

    Each time a young model is used, there is more often than not, an emotive response in wanting to product these young females from exploitation.

    Your own sense of moralistic right and wrong will however, be needed to be tempered with the actual state of law in Singapore and whether the law does have a concept of underage.

    Lets examine your points:

    1. Exploitation of a minor - please tell me how hiring a model constitutes exploiting of a model. Now, cries for underaged have ranged even for non-nude modelling. So plesae make your position clear what you are objecting towards, and then, state the correct law which covers:

    (a) That it is illegal to exploit an underaged person.
    (b) What exploitatin means
    (c) What underaged means
    (d) Finally your submissions on why hiring an underaged model constitutes exploitation.

    2. No point to quote other countries' laws - please quote Singapore laws. Laws vary from country to country. In HK, there is a data protection act, in SG there isn't.

    3. Model releases - please keep model releases out of the discussion as it opens an unrelated can of worms which has already been discussed to death. Stick to the concept of underaged.


    Quote Originally Posted by aselley View Post
    I was going to post this in the thread from which inspired it:
    http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showthread.php?t=440225
    but decided it was not place to usurp the thread where a photographer is seeking real input into his work.

    I guess that in the face of the TNP/"nude" sensationalist "journalism" I am still amazed by the number of photographers who see age as irrelevant and who participate in shoots with underage models without a thought to any legal or illegal activity.



    No what you are talking about is "exploitation of a minor" So while you may actually agree with that statement...the law does not, the "sensationalism of the TNP article certainly has leanings that are not" and if you look at the recent Bill Henson photography scandal in Australia, then its safe to say that the majority of the public see underage as a very important issue when it comes to photography. So while it is nice to suggest "art is simply art", the recent controversies, the complete lack of Model Releases, suggests that this is in fact not really the case.

    An interesting look at both sides of the Bill Henson controversy

    http://www.artnewsblog.com/2008/10/b...ontroversy.htm

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesi...phsarentsexual

  11. #11
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Underage is still Underage

    1. Incapability to enter into a legal contract does not make the act illegal.

    It only means that the other party cannot enforce the contract against the person incapable of entering into a contract. It does not make the act illegal. Please do distinguish between the two as they are separate legal concepts.

    2. As for the bit about International law - are you sure you can be prosecuted for say the following:

    A Singaporean, posts a photo of a Singapore Model taken in Singapore on a Singapore website - you are telling me that that person can be prosecuted under the laws of another country?

    Although I'm not an expert on the topic of conflict of laws, I do not think that there is a concept of "International Law". Laws are territorial. There is no such thing as an International Law as far as I'm aware.

    3. As stated before, keep model releases out of this - they have nothing to do with the concept of age and/or underaged. If you want to discuss this, start another thread as it is a whole new separate topic altogether.

    4. The rest about the professionalism and use of images has again, nothing to do with the concept of age. Nice points to use when trying to evoke an emotive response, but otherwise unrelated to the concept of age.

    Quote Originally Posted by aselley View Post
    My understanding is that in Singapore someone under the age of 21 cannot enter into a legal contract. They are for the intent of legal recourse judged to be a minor. Also the issue is one of Int'l law, what is considered Porn varies from country to country, and if you post online you can be prosecuted in another country regardless of your residence status or geographic location.

    A Model Release is a contract between the photographer and the model (or his/her guardians) that outlines the parameters of the shoot, the usage of the produced images and protects the interests of both.

    In light of the TNP article, one of the main points of the article was the "click" happy nature of the nude photography and the payment for such. If you read the follow on page with "Amber" the article closed with the idea that such bikini or lingerie shoots are often conducted by sleazy men who "encourage" the shoot to go beyond. Many readers will leave the article with that image...they will leave it and take only that closing point from it.

    If you as a photographer want a model to take you seriously, then you need to be professional about your art, and working with a model includes a release, it secures you, it secures the model and it lets her know you have no plans to use the images inappropriately and gives her legal recourse if you do.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Underage is still Underage

    Quote Originally Posted by TheQuestion View Post
    thing is that this isn't child porn yet.nor are the photogs shooting children...so what's the hullabaloo? also note looking at your zenfolio did u even entertain the possibility that the import models u so proudly display there are under 21?
    Yes I did. And you are right to suggest that I posted them under an assumption. (Maybe not a smart thing to do) but the assumption being that the models, by agreeing to work an import show signed releases with the event promoter to be photographed and to have those photos possible used by photographer they have not specifically signed with.

    In hindsight this may be a mistake, but I know import shows in the USA and in Australia have the models sign such releases, and increasingly it is also being done in the Japanese shows as well.

    If anyone can enlighten me to whether this is done in Singapore and whether my assumption is correct I would appreciate it, since I could then take the appropriate steps.

    We as photographers are not only the person behind the lens but the very real face of our interest and our hobby. How we conduct ourselves and the seriousness with which we take our art is how we will be seen. We can be seen as "good" oe we can be seen as "dirty"...it really is up to us?
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  13. #13
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Underage is still Underage

    Again, distinguish the capability to enter into a legal contract vs being prosecuted for transacting with an "underaged" person.

    Actually I don't see much grey as far as the concept of age is concerned - it is pretty clear to me what can be done and what cannot. You could try to elaborate otherwise to facilitate discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by aselley View Post
    If she was 20, she was of legal consenting age to have sex, not to enter a legal contract.

    As has been said elsewhere there is a lot of "grey" in this area and I, for one, would want to tread very carefully lest someone decide that an example needs to be made.

  14. #14
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Underage is still Underage

    My final point on model releases - you do know that even under US laws, the concept of model releases have nothing to do with age?

    Not sure why we are going on and on about model releases when the main topic is about age.

    Also, the rest about being dirty/good etc, have nothing to do with age - merely emotive provoking points.

    Quote Originally Posted by aselley View Post
    Yes I did. And you are right to suggest that I posted them under an assumption. (Maybe not a smart thing to do) but the assumption being that the models, by agreeing to work an import show signed releases with the event promoter to be photographed and to have those photos possible used by photographer they have not specifically signed with.

    In hindsight this may be a mistake, but I know import shows in the USA and in Australia have the models sign such releases, and increasingly it is also being done in the Japanese shows as well.

    If anyone can enlighten me to whether this is done in Singapore and whether my assumption is correct I would appreciate it, since I could then take the appropriate steps.

    We as photographers are not only the person behind the lens but the very real face of our interest and our hobby. How we conduct ourselves and the seriousness with which we take our art is how we will be seen. We can be seen as "good" oe we can be seen as "dirty"...it really is up to us?

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    Default Re: Underage is still Underage

    Quote Originally Posted by aselley View Post
    Yes I did. And you are right to suggest that I posted them under an assumption. (Maybe not a smart thing to do) but the assumption being that the models, by agreeing to work an import show signed releases with the event promoter to be photographed and to have those photos possible used by photographer they have not specifically signed with.

    In hindsight this may be a mistake, but I know import shows in the USA and in Australia have the models sign such releases, and increasingly it is also being done in the Japanese shows as well.

    If anyone can enlighten me to whether this is done in Singapore and whether my assumption is correct I would appreciate it, since I could then take the appropriate steps.

    We as photographers are not only the person behind the lens but the very real face of our interest and our hobby. How we conduct ourselves and the seriousness with which we take our art is how we will be seen. We can be seen as "good" oe we can be seen as "dirty"...it really is up to us?
    well don't you think the organizers behind the import shows never check the girls age or maybe the girls lied about their age to get the job? this isn't america or australia so dun assume they apply the same standards here or even if they do there's no guarantee that models wouldn't forage their age to get the job. I'm all for protecting our children against pedos but this pedophilia hullabaloo has turned too much into a boogie man where people are even paranoid of someone produces a camera at a kids' area.
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  16. #16
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Underage is still Underage

    I love the last part - it says precisely what I was trying to say

    Quote Originally Posted by TheQuestion View Post
    well don't you think the organizers behind the import shows never check the girls age or maybe the girls lied about their age to get the job? this isn't america or australia so dun assume they apply the same standards here or even if they do there's no guarantee that models wouldn't forage their age to get the job. I'm all for protecting our children against pedos but this pedophilia hullabaloo has turned too much into a boogie man where people are even paranoid of someone produces a camera at a kids' area.

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    Default Re: Underage is still Underage

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    I love the last part - it says precisely what I was trying to say
    lol i should've checked the grammar though
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  18. #18

    Default Re: Underage is still Underage

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    2. As for the bit about International law - are you sure you can be prosecuted for say the following:

    A Singaporean, posts a photo of a Singapore Model taken in Singapore on a Singapore website - you are telling me that that person can be prosecuted under the laws of another country?

    Although I'm not an expert on the topic of conflict of laws, I do not think that there is a concept of "International Law". Laws are territorial. There is no such thing as an International Law as far as I'm aware.
    You are right, there is no such thing as International Law. However in the area of pedophilia law enforcement agencies not only in this region but especially around the world are becoming increasingly cooperative. In the post 9/11 world these intelligence agencies regularly engage in discourse, and I am almost positive that if your underage images found themselves on the computer of someone arrested in the USA it would not take long for them to be tracked to you, which would soon be followed by the Singaporean Police knocking on your door at the request of the US Embassy and the office stationed there for the sole purpose of aiding local agencies in stopping underage exploitation...esp. sexual.

    As for posting in Singapore, on a Singapore Site and being prosecuted in another country, one only needs to look at the legal defamation suits launched in Singapore Courts on behalf of the Government against things published overseas both in print and online to know that you can be prosecuted across Int'l borders.[/quote]

    Look I understand what you are saying in that in art the age of the model should not matter, that the art should stand for itself and should be beyond the pettiness of such legal, ethical and even moral question. It should be seen as Art and celebrated as such.

    But that is not the case, its not even close and to pretend it is, will be to risk first the ire of those opposed to you and without the openess to understand and later to incurr their punishments and limits to freedom.
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    Default Re: Underage is still Underage

    Quote Originally Posted by aselley View Post
    You are right, there is no such thing as International Law. However in the area of pedophilia law enforcement agencies not only in this region but especially around the world are becoming increasingly cooperative. In the post 9/11 world these intelligence agencies regularly engage in discourse, and I am almost positive that if your underage images found themselves on the computer of someone arrested in the USA it would not take long for them to be tracked to you, which would soon be followed by the Singaporean Police knocking on your door at the request of the US Embassy and the office stationed there for the sole purpose of aiding local agencies in stopping underage exploitation...esp. sexual.

    As for posting in Singapore, on a Singapore Site and being prosecuted in another country, one only needs to look at the legal defamation suits launched in Singapore Courts on behalf of the Government against things published overseas both in print and online to know that you can be prosecuted across Int'l borders.
    Look I understand what you are saying in that in art the age of the model should not matter, that the art should stand for itself and should be beyond the pettiness of such legal, ethical and even moral question. It should be seen as Art and celebrated as such.

    But that is not the case, its not even close and to pretend it is, will be to risk first the ire of those opposed to you and without the openess to understand and later to incurr their punishments and limits to freedom.[/QUOTE]

    let them come lor as long as u didn't do anything wrong what's there to fear?
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  20. #20

    Default Re: Underage is still Underage

    Quote Originally Posted by TheQuestion View Post
    I'm all for protecting our children against pedos but this pedophilia hullabaloo has turned too much into a boogie man where people are even paranoid of someone produces a camera at a kids' area.
    I agree with the hullabaloo...but why do you think it has?

    Do you really think here will be immune to the same? Or rather that its just a question of time before such "hullabaloo" also finds rank here?

    Is it better to work for it and for photography, or wait until its too late?
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