Macro/ Lens Question.

[Snapperholic]

Dear All,

Just wanna get some opinions. I am thinking of getting macro (most prob Canon EF macro 100mm) lens in the near future... Currently, i do not have an external flash in my arsenal. As such, my question would be:-

1) Is it possible to shoot macro without a flash?
2) Which first? the flash or the lens?
3) Which one better for macro? 580 EXII or 430EXII? not thinking of getting other flash alternatives (such as ring flash) since i would want a more generic flash for normal use.

Thank you all for your time.

[Jet Lim]

My answers to:

Q1) Yes, why not. No one says that you "MUST" use a flash BUT BUT....I always use a flash because of low lighting or in-balancing of light conditions I will use a flash. If the surrounding has even light and ideal, then using a flash may be spoiling the picture instead. All I am saying is "Use your own judgement" when comes to flash

Q2) Not quite sure I understand your question here, BUT, are you asking should you buy a flash or lens first? If that is the question then I would say get the lens first. Or should I put it, lens has higher priority over flash.

Q3) Of course 580ExII but it is not limited to just the flash unit. First you must know how to use the flash features. It is fine to my opinion that you do not need to get a ring flash BUT you definitely need to get a diffuser to soften and spread the light evenly. A good diffuser is equally important for macros. I am not too sure why you mentioned generic lens below??? Since I thought you've said that you wanted to get the 100mm Macro lens??? A generic lens to me means 24-70mm or the 18-55mm or the 18-200mm etc...more like zoom lenses

Lastly,you may wish to visit my website www.photosmoment.com on Macros (Insects, Butterflies and Flowers) - All pictures are taken with a flash, are you able to tell?

Also you may like to post your "Macro" questions in the Macros thread and you might get more relevant answers. I am using the 180mm BTW.

Hope this helps...

[lennyl]

A lot of the answer depends on the type of macros you are shooting. You may need a tripod+head as well depending on the answer.

To Jet Lim : why "580EXII of course"? He won't require the extra power.

[Snapperholic]

Originally Posted by Jet Lim My answers to: Q1) Yes, why not. No one says that you "MUST" use a flash BUT BUT....I always use a flash because of low lighting or in-balancing of light conditions I will use a flash. If the surrounding has even light and ideal, then using a flash may be spoiling the picture instead. All I am saying is "Use your own judgement" when comes to flash Q2) Not quite sure I understand your question here, BUT, are you asking should you buy a flash or lens first? If that is the question then I would say get the lens first. Or should I put it, lens has higher priority over flash. Q3) Of course 580ExII but it is not limited to just the flash unit. First you must know how to use the flash features. It is fine to my opinion that you do not need to get a ring flash BUT you definitely need to get a diffuser to soften and spread the light evenly. A good diffuser is equally important for macros. I am not too sure why you mentioned generic lens below??? Since I thought you've said that you wanted to get the 100mm Macro lens??? A generic lens to me means 24-70mm or the 18-55mm or the 18-200mm etc...more like zoom lenses Lastly,you may wish to visit my website www.photosmoment.com on Macros (Insects, Butterflies and Flowers) - All pictures are taken with a flash, are you able to tell? Also you may like to post your "Macro" questions in the Macros thread and you might get more relevant answers. I am using the 180mm BTW. Hope this helps...

To Jet Lim:
1) Seemingly through shots of other macro shooters, flashes are the necessity in order not to be hindered by lighting issues. Which is why i brought up this question.

2) With reference to my 1st question, i was thinking if macro does essentially need flash, should i buy flash 1st since macro lens without lens would be quite handicapped?

3) I meant that i wanted the flash for all uses therefore not considering ring flashes and its counterparts. Therefore the flash chosen is a generic flash. (PS: i am i flashless guy at the moment (i.e. no external flash).... intending to flash myself soon)

Btw, i saw someone posted in the macro gallery and was told that it IS a gallery so its better to post in the individual equipment forums. thus explaining why i am posting in here.

Originally Posted by lennyl A lot of the answer depends on the type of macros you are shooting. You may need a tripod+head as well depending on the answer. To Jet Lim : why "580EXII of course"? He won't require the extra power.

To Lennyl:
Macro in the aspect of floral and insects category. possibly food as well but thats another story. i filtered to either tamron 90mm or canon EF Macro 100mm. i have an ok tripod and ball head. benro one.... Should be good enuff right? i doubt the load would be above 3kg...therefore the tolerance is more than enuff.

So Macro does not need strong flashes like one from 580exII??

[tjhan]

Re point 2. If you don't have a lens, you can't take macro shots! If you have a lens but no flash, you can take macro shots! Albeit only in some situations.

I got the lens first, in fact it was my very first lens besides the kit one. And to be honest, I only start using it to its full potential after I got a flash. So yeah, get both asap if you wish.

[Entertainer]

well i have been surviving without an external flash. Its not impossible, just depends on what you shoot and where you shoot.

[lennyl]

Originally Posted by Snapperholic Macro in the aspect of floral and insects category. possibly food as well but thats another story. i filtered to either tamron 90mm or canon EF Macro 100mm. i have an ok tripod and ball head. benro one.... Should be good enuff right? i doubt the load would be above 3kg...therefore the tolerance is more than enuff. So Macro does not need strong flashes like one from 580exII??

The main frustration from a ball head is trying to position the camera exactly the angle you want. The load should not be an issue unless it cannot hold your equipment steadily. Note that when your camera is mounted at an angle (instead of directly above the head) many ball heads hold less than their rated weight. In the field, you probably won't be using a tripod much for insects anyway. Flowers... two words. Pesky wind

If you're going to be shooting in the field, most of the time you'll be close to the subject. Unless you're using off camera flash, shooting through an umbrella, bouncing flash, etc. you won't need the extra power of a 580 (but it can't hurt). But I wonder if I'm missing something. I'd get a 580 for other reasons (better UI, more flexibility, etc.) - in fact, I did - but it is a fair bit more expensive.

[Snapperholic]

Originally Posted by tjhan Re point 2. If you don't have a lens, you can't take macro shots! If you have a lens but no flash, you can take macro shots! Albeit only in some situations. I got the lens first, in fact it was my very first lens besides the kit one. And to be honest, I only start using it to its full potential after I got a flash. So yeah, get both asap if you wish.

To: tjhan
I think i got your point~ seems llike i gotta weigh again which is more important... thanks bro~

Originally Posted by Entertainer well i have been surviving without an external flash. Its not impossible, just depends on what you shoot and where you shoot.

To Entertainer:
With foilage and stuff, isn't it very challenging to shoot macro then? Hmm lots of considerations.... btw, bo lui..... at one go can only buy one..... thats why the dilemma...

Originally Posted by lennyl The main frustration from a ball head is trying to position the camera exactly the angle you want. The load should not be an issue unless it cannot hold your equipment steadily. Note that when your camera is mounted at an angle (instead of directly above the head) many ball heads hold less than their rated weight. In the field, you probably won't be using a tripod much for insects anyway. Flowers... two words. Pesky wind If you're going to be shooting in the field, most of the time you'll be close to the subject. Unless you're using off camera flash, shooting through an umbrella, bouncing flash, etc. you won't need the extra power of a 580 (but it can't hurt). But I wonder if I'm missing something. I'd get a 580 for other reasons (better UI, more flexibility, etc.) - in fact, I did - but it is a fair bit more expensive.

To Lennyl:
I checked the load specs... its around 5 kg.... thats why i think its "loadable". as for the orientation angle, i will take note.

as for the second point, i get what u mean, 580exII for the flexibility ya?

To all:
Thank you all for your time in guiding~ Cheers~

[lennyl]

Originally Posted by Snapperholic as for the second point, i get what u mean, 580exII for the flexibility ya?

Yeah. The only time I've ever thought "I wish I have a 430" is after carrying that sucker around all day - and even then, not very often.

[Snapperholic]

Hahaha ok~ Problem with weight i think i can handle. Seems like i should "just do it"
Canon EF 100mm Macro 1st then the 580EXII ba.....

[Jet Lim]

Originally Posted by lennyl A lot of the answer depends on the type of macros you are shooting. You may need a tripod+head as well depending on the answer. To Jet Lim : why "580EXII of course"? He won't require the extra power.

Any flash can be used for macros of course. BUT I am sure you get a flash not just for macros right? Also not all flash model produce the same results. Reasons include: More powerful, when you need the lights and it is "not there" then you will say, better to get 580 for the reach especially when you are not using your 100mm macro lens (who says one cannot use a 70-200 to take macros), refresh rate etc.... Of course I said base on experience. Otherwise, you could get a 430 and live the hard way...

[Snapperholic]

Have made my first move.... gotten the 580EXII first instead and am loving it~ feel the need to get a flash 1st (need to learn how to flash and for general use.) and that macro can wait that wee bit longer (dun wanna do macro and feel handicapped by flash also)

thank you all for you contribution..... now saving for macro 100mm...

[tjhan]

Yeah it's a good move. Why force yourself into macro? it's a hard genre. It strains your eyes, you have to go into the jungle, crawl around, carry heavy tripods, get stung by mosquitoes, feel the hot weather and all that, just to take pics of insects mating. /joke.

Having an external flash opens you up to the world of strobing, which is indeed very interesting.

[lennyl]

Originally Posted by Jet Lim Any flash can be used for macros of course. BUT I am sure you get a flash not just for macros right? Also not all flash model produce the same results. Reasons include: More powerful, when you need the lights and it is "not there" then you will say, better to get 580 for the reach especially when you are not using your 100mm macro lens (who says one cannot use a 70-200 to take macros), refresh rate etc.... Of course I said base on experience. Otherwise, you could get a 430 and live the hard way...

I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just wondering at your reasons (as I pointed out in a subsequent reply). I wanted a flash and got the 580 over the 430 a while back, but the price difference for me between the 430 and 580 was only US$100 - I understand it might be a bit more in Singapore.

BTW look into a Better Beamer if you need to use the flash across a long distance. I've seen one in action, interesting product.

[KangS]

Hmmm ... I think it really depends on the kind and quality of macro we're talking about here aren't we ?

A typical lens with a good magnification can be adapted to a 'macro' with a cheap close-up filter. Or some extension tubes. Of course, in the ultimate course of things, quality of image suffers with filters. And if you want to see the "eyes of bugs", its really hard without a 1:1 capable lens to start off with, though there are other ways like reverse mounting a short focal length (20-35mm) into a longer focal length (70 to maybe 200mm) to increase magnification.

So, there are various ways around it. For the really close up, think there's really isn't much else like the MPE-65. Or the 180mm macro for skittish subjects like some bugs species.

As for lighting, I came across a pretty interesting one some 1 year ago of a guy who created his own lighting using a 2 LED torchlights and a homemade diffuser. Cost him like almost nothing since it was all DIY. And somehow, the thing works though not on all insects but works very well especially for flowers as he has a lot more control over the way the light falls on his subjects. Come to think of it, might be a worthwhile DIY project to try too!

So really... its about how you're willing to bend the rules if budget is an issue and how willing are you to experiment.