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Thread: Two town councils invested in Lehman and Morgan Stanley.

  1. #81
    Senior Member Sion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two town councils invested in Lehman and Morgan Stanley.

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    Since you have changed the subject to "last last post to me"

    This is my last post to you again.

    Okay.
    Okay you win.

    Not because of your education but because I am a "62 year old less educated senior citizen".

  2. #82

    Default Re: Two town councils invested in Lehman and Morgan Stanley.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sion View Post
    Okay you win.

    Not because of your education but because I am a "62 year old less educated senior citizen".


    Liar! Your skin is too perfect for that of a 62 year old less educated senior citizen (reference to Afghan girl thread).

  3. #83

    Default Re: Two town councils invested in Lehman and Morgan Stanley.

    Kaoz...become jokes liao. Haaa

    Ok lah...as long as there's no hardcore bickering, everything is friendly =
    ( If got any really really hardcore arguement, pls take it to private msg. Thanks! )
    One-North Explorers
    | Leave nothing but footprints, take nothing but photos |

  4. #84

    Default Re: Two town councils invested in Lehman and Morgan Stanley.

    Sorry to break your bubble. Again you got it wrong. Town councils are not part of the p ap or any other party. They are provided for by an Act of Parliament and chaired by the MP. Thus we have Mr Low in Hougang for example.

    As to why they have so much reserves, go ask your MP. You elected them, so ask him to explain his obscene actions to you.

    Another prick in your bubble- your taxpayer status means nothing to the town council. They don't get a single cent of your taxes. S&C charges, by definition, are charges for services rendered, not taxes. So they don't owe you any explanation for their reserves as long as they maintain your estate well. It's true though that town council charges are a monopoly, so if you're unhappy you can either complain to your MP, tell him you want him to reduce the charges or you'll vote him out or file a complaint with the Competition Commission.

    Ps I hope you know by now that most mission statements are just for show and tell purposes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jango View Post
    Whether the employees in TCs are civil servants or not, or how they landed their jobs is irrelevant here. But it remains a fact that TCs as an organisation exist to provide public service. They are part of the ruling party P4P. ( http://www.P a P.org.sg/links.shtml ). There is even a chapter in the legislation for TCs - CHAPTER 329A, SECTIONS 24 AND 49.

    If they are non-profit organisations, why on earth did they so show such earnest in building the reserve to such an OBSCENE amount? What do they plan to use that 1 billion for? build teleporters or road sweeping robots? Why are they setting the S&C fees so high when they obviously don't need to? Only the TCs and *** can tell us.

    I don't think anyone is asking TCs to return the money. That'll never happen. But shouldn't we as tax payers be questioning? Why sweep things under the carpet? If NKF could decide that they have so much reserve that they can halt major donation drives for a period of time, can't the TCs do the same?

    Taken off Bishan-Toa Payoh TC website:

    "Our Mission Statement: Our mission is to provide a clean, green, well maintained and healthy environment for the residents, through close co-operation with the residents, grassroots organisations and related government agencies."

  5. #85
    Senior Member azul123's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two town councils invested in Lehman and Morgan Stanley.

    Since the news break out on investment losses by TCs, alot of people have gone to review what was reported in their Annual report (at least those TCs that provided online Annual reports) and questions raised on how the sinking funds are there in the first place? and still received gov grants? is gov. grants from Taxpayer money?

    If you have a sinking fund doesn't that mean you have surplus to be moved into sinking funds? why get gov. grants if there is surplus? I am really confused.

    ../azul123

  6. #86

    Default Re: Two town councils invested in Lehman and Morgan Stanley.

    1. I hope you're aware that town councils were created to do the dirty work hdb didn't want to do. That's their role.

    The govt sold it as greater local autonomy, a way for MP's to show how well they could manage an estate and for residents to see how good their MPs are, etc. But in management terms, hdb basically decided to concentrate on its core competencies (ie building and selling flats, rental of shop units, carparks and most importantly fines, all of which are money spinners) and outsourced the non-core dirty work to tc's. As as we know from management, companies always keep the most profitable parts of the business for themselves, and outsource the least attractive parts. So too did HDB.

    2. As to whether town councils should invest in the financial markets, I suggest you read the Act to see if there are any restrictions. And if not, then the moral questions should be raised with your MP, who is the chairman of the town council.

    There is accountability here because your MP is elected, and transparency because you can see their financial statements. If you disagree with what the finance managers in the town council are doing with the surplus funds, tell your MP.

    Forum posts don't achieve anything. Talk to your MP. They are duty-bound to listen to you, and they may even take your concerns seriously enough to act.

    But remember what I said about the cash management function in any organisation.

    Quote Originally Posted by mattlock View Post
    this is my last reply to you, because I think that some of your posts are for the sake of playing the devil's advocate. Your analogy makes no sense.

    Town councils invested their money in bad financial products.
    Financial products all come with risks, understandable. This is NOT the topic of debate here. We are looking at something more fundamental.

    First and foremost, what is the town council's role.

    Secondly, should it be investing people's money (paid as compulsory fees) in a way that is unsafe and not transparent to the people who are paying these fees. It is allowed by the government but whether this is an appropriate role for Town Councils to play is the question.
    The huge surpluses raise the question of whether the Town Councils have any justification to keep raising the conservancy fees too. In fact a whole bag of issues are raised.

    Town Councils are not businesses.
    Quoting Mr Wang: "It's as if the town council were a fund manager or a unit trust. Except that you as customer are never going to get a cent back. "

    http://mrwangsaysso.blogspot.com/200...your-town.html
    Last edited by waileong; 19th November 2008 at 08:44 AM.

  7. #87
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    Default Re: Two town councils invested in Lehman and Morgan Stanley.

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    apologies, i thought you were talking about who to blame regarding bad investments, because of the slew of posts regarding that (around yours). about what you were actually talking about, i have no idea. from what i see , town councils all over the uk do the same thing, it has been a hot topic online here as well.
    how many country's system do u want to raise & compare?

    the 2 TCs are Holland-Bukit Panjang & Pasir Ris-Punggol. to mention UK oni shows how far off u have drifted...

  8. #88
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    Default Re: Two town councils invested in Lehman and Morgan Stanley.

    there was once a mention to hire 100% locals manual works, with that surplus wad excuses they have now?

  9. #89

    Default Re: Two town councils invested in Lehman and Morgan Stanley.

    Quote Originally Posted by sORe-EyEz View Post
    how many country's system do u want to raise & compare?

    the 2 TCs are Holland-Bukit Panjang & Pasir Ris-Punggol. to mention UK oni shows how far off u have drifted...
    this is the last post i will make to you regarding this matter.

  10. #90

    Default Re: Two town councils invested in Lehman and Morgan Stanley.

    Hmm...not sure you saw the link I posted. TCs are under the P A P website. How is that not part of the government, I wonder. Maybe you can explain your logic? Again I don't care who is Mr Low or Mr High. We are not talking about individuals here, but TCs as an organisation.

    I think you have gravely mistaken my post. I wasn't asking you or anyone here to provide the answers. How could I expect anyone one here to have the answer? Didn't I say only the TCs / PA P have the answers? What we seek now is clarification and explanation from the govt. And we want more transparency as many here has mentioned. Telling me to go ask my MP is helpful advise, really. Also thanks for telling us to voice our unhappiness through our vote. Wow, why didn't I think of that?

    You know saying things like "mission statements are for show and tell" is so DUH... I hope you are not working for a government agency. By giving such responses, you are no different from the hooligan sellers in Sim Lim - a "Star Retailer" logo displayed but yet providing gangster tactics. And when questioned, the response is "so what? lim peh is like dat, u buay song ijit?". Where is the sense of responsibility and integrity?


    Quote Originally Posted by waileong View Post
    Sorry to break your bubble. Again you got it wrong. Town councils are not part of the p ap or any other party. They are provided for by an Act of Parliament and chaired by the MP. Thus we have Mr Low in Hougang for example.

    As to why they have so much reserves, go ask your MP. You elected them, so ask him to explain his obscene actions to you.

    Another prick in your bubble- your taxpayer status means nothing to the town council. They don't get a single cent of your taxes. S&C charges, by definition, are charges for services rendered, not taxes. So they don't owe you any explanation for their reserves as long as they maintain your estate well. It's true though that town council charges are a monopoly, so if you're unhappy you can either complain to your MP, tell him you want him to reduce the charges or you'll vote him out or file a complaint with the Competition Commission.

    Ps I hope you know by now that most mission statements are just for show and tell purposes.

  11. #91
    Senior Member Sion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two town councils invested in Lehman and Morgan Stanley.

    Quote Originally Posted by sORe-EyEz View Post
    how many country's system do u want to raise & compare?

    the 2 TCs are Holland-Bukit Panjang & Pasir Ris-Punggol. to mention UK oni shows how far off u have drifted...
    But if you mentioned Holland why couldn't we talk about UK?

  12. #92
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    Default Re: Two town councils invested in Lehman and Morgan Stanley.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sion View Post
    But if you mentioned Holland why couldn't we talk about UK?
    cos i could not find Bukit Panjang anywhere near Holland.

  13. #93

    Default Re: Two town councils invested in Lehman and Morgan Stanley.

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    i do not think it fair to compare a product from a financial institution to the marina sands dice table.

    in any case, a lot of people just saw "wa, lehman brothers", "wa, this company big big name" .. and just bought in without properly understanding what they are buying into.
    Let's see, both involve risks, and since the town council "bought in without properly understanding what they are buying into", I don't see how blindly buying into a financial instrument is different from gambling away the money.

    The way these "financial instruments" have been rigged with derivative after derivative of toxic debts, the game of dice probably has a higher likely hood of return.

  14. #94

    Default Re: Two town councils invested in Lehman and Morgan Stanley.

    You don't know Mr Low or Mr High? I suppose you don't know who is Mr Chiam either then. And you've never heard of Hougang or Potong Pasir either. Then how you be talking about town councils?

    TC's part of PA P? PA P website = govt? My my, how you've been deceived!

    You want clarification from TC's or the govt by posting here? How can that happen? Maybe if you you-tubed and publicised your video on Stomp it might happen. But posting here and expecting answers from TC's or the govt? Well, I guess you can always hope.

    You believe in mission statements? Wow!


    Quote Originally Posted by Jango View Post
    Hmm...not sure you saw the link I posted. TCs are under the P A P website. How is that not part of the government, I wonder. Maybe you can explain your logic? Again I don't care who is Mr Low or Mr High. We are not talking about individuals here, but TCs as an organisation.

    I think you have gravely mistaken my post. I wasn't asking you or anyone here to provide the answers. How could I expect anyone one here to have the answer? Didn't I say only the TCs / PA P have the answers? What we seek now is clarification and explanation from the govt. And we want more transparency as many here has mentioned. Telling me to go ask my MP is helpful advise, really. Also thanks for telling us to voice our unhappiness through our vote. Wow, why didn't I think of that?

    You know saying things like "mission statements are for show and tell" is so DUH... I hope you are not working for a government agency. By giving such responses, you are no different from the hooligan sellers in Sim Lim - a "Star Retailer" logo displayed but yet providing gangster tactics. And when questioned, the response is "so what? lim peh is like dat, u buay song ijit?". Where is the sense of responsibility and integrity?
    Last edited by waileong; 19th November 2008 at 10:55 AM.

  15. #95

    Default Re: Two town councils invested in Lehman and Morgan Stanley.

    Actually you have the risks backwards.

    In financial instruments, your risk of losing everything is (hypothetically speaking) 0.1% to 20%, depending on market factors, which bank you invested in, etc. No one knew that Lehman would collapse, and one would have rated the probability of such an event extremely low-- after all, Lehman has been in existence for 158 years and survived the Depression and both World Wars, the stagflation of the 70's, etc.

    In gambling, your risks of losing is typically more than 50%-- else we could all quit our jobs and become full-time gamblers. And casinos would be a losing business.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gunbucker View Post
    Let's see, both involve risks, and since the town council "bought in without properly understanding what they are buying into", I don't see how blindly buying into a financial instrument is different from gambling away the money.

    The way these "financial instruments" have been rigged with derivative after derivative of toxic debts, the game of dice probably has a higher likely hood of return.

  16. #96

    Default Re: Two town councils invested in Lehman and Morgan Stanley.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunbucker View Post
    Let's see, both involve risks, and since the town council "bought in without properly understanding what they are buying into", I don't see how blindly buying into a financial instrument is different from gambling away the money.

    The way these "financial instruments" have been rigged with derivative after derivative of toxic debts, the game of dice probably has a higher likely hood of return.
    you speak as if it is common for what happened in this case to happen everyday..

    financial markets are risky, that i will not deny; but to compare it to something as rigged as gambling on a casino table.. that's just plain unfair. informed or uninformed, it does not make a difference in this case when we're talking about risk here. informed people might not necessarily avoid risk (even though according to theory, they should diversify - so long as the return is high for a riskier project) like the plague, and maybe one could argue that here the returns do not compare well with the "risk involved", but that's besides the point - these are challenging times and things happen.
    Last edited by night86mare; 19th November 2008 at 04:17 PM.

  17. #97

    Default Re: Two town councils invested in Lehman and Morgan Stanley.

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong View Post
    You don't know Mr Low or Mr High? I suppose you don't know who is Mr Chiam either then. And you've never heard of Hougang or Potong Pasir either. Then how you be talking about town councils?
    Does it matter who they are? We are not talking about individuals here. Don't you get it? *sigh*

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong View Post
    TC's part of PA P? PA P website = govt? My my, how you've been deceived!
    Maybe I have been indeed. You seem like an expert. Care to explain and enlighten? TIA!

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong View Post
    You want clarification from TC's or the govt by posting here? How can that happen? Maybe if you you-tubed and publicised your video on Stomp it might happen. But posting here and expecting answers from TC's or the govt? Well, I guess you can always hope.
    Read my previous post pls. We're just voicing our opinions. Who said anyone is looking for answers HERE in CS on govt policies???? Why take that burden upon yourself?

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong View Post
    You believe in mission statements? Wow!
    What kind of lame reply is that? Why should I not believe in mission statements? You have traumatic experience before?

    Anyway it seems you have challenges comprehending what was written so no point bickering and turning this into petty argument. Ciao!

  18. #98

    Default Re: Two town councils invested in Lehman and Morgan Stanley.

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    you speak as if it is common for what happened in this case to happen everyday..

    financial markets are risky, that i will not deny; but to compare it to something as rigged as gambling on a casino table.. that's just plain unfair. informed or uninformed, it does not make a difference in this case when we're talking about risk here. informed people might not necessarily avoid risk (even though according to theory, they should diversify - so long as the return is high for a riskier project) like the plague, and maybe one could argue that here the returns do not compare well with the "risk involved", but that's besides the point - these are challenging times and things happen.
    I don't understand this post, can you simplify what you're saying?

  19. #99
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    Default Re: Two town councils invested in Lehman and Morgan Stanley.

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    you speak as if it is common for what happened in this case to happen everyday..

    financial markets are risky, that i will not deny; but to compare it to something as rigged as gambling on a casino table.. that's just plain unfair. informed or uninformed, it does not make a difference in this case when we're talking about risk here. informed people might not necessarily avoid risk (even though according to theory, they should diversify - so long as the return is high for a riskier project) like the plague, and maybe one could argue that here the returns do not compare well with the "risk involved", but that's besides the point - these are challenging times and things happen.
    With the higher risk mini bonds (such as high 5) there was written (perhaps in small letters) that if one of the 7 investment banks collapses, you would not get your principal. Since, the TC's are using not their own money (if this doesn't belong to the country, then to whom?????), they have the obligation to better understand the risks involved..........or perhaps they were not well informed by their investment managers?

    Anyway, they didn't put everything in one basket, (if we may believe the media) so it is not that bad as in the UK

    HS

  20. #100
    Senior Member Sion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two town councils invested in Lehman and Morgan Stanley.

    Quote Originally Posted by mattlock View Post
    I don't understand this post, can you simplify what you're saying?
    night86mare is not known for a simplified answer.

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