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Thread: Two town councils invested in Lehman and Morgan Stanley.

  1. #61

    Default Re: Two town councils invested in Lehman and Morgan Stanley.

    accountability of the TCouncillors are up to each individual TC to decide....can only say is wait and see
    Nikon D300s, 50mm, 18-105mm, Sigma 30mm F1.4, Sigma 50-150mm F2.8, Samyang 8mm F3.5

  2. #62

    Default Re: Two town councils invested in Lehman and Morgan Stanley.

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong View Post
    On the contrary. Town councils employ whoever they like, the people are not public servants or civil servants. Thus the Hougang town council appoints a number of WP members, for instance. I don't think these applied for their jobs through the Civil Service website.

    A Town Council and a MCST are very different. You don't get to elect the committee members in a town council. Your MP heads the town council, and he choose whoever he likes for the town council, he doesn't have to get your approval for every major spending decision, although it's true that he could lose his job if he keeps screwing up.

    Whether the town council is profit making or not is immaterial. What is important is that the money does not belong to you after you have handed it over to the town council. If you feel that the town council has done a bad job or keeps raising fees unnecessarily, you can vote your MP out. But you cannot go to the town council and ask for your money back. And there's no law that says the town council has to return excess funds back to residents at the end of a fiscal year if it finds itself in surplus.
    Whether the employees in TCs are civil servants or not, or how they landed their jobs is irrelevant here. But it remains a fact that TCs as an organisation exist to provide public service. They are part of the ruling party P4P. ( http://www.P a P.org.sg/links.shtml ). There is even a chapter in the legislation for TCs - CHAPTER 329A, SECTIONS 24 AND 49.

    If they are non-profit organisations, why on earth did they so show such earnest in building the reserve to such an OBSCENE amount? What do they plan to use that 1 billion for? build teleporters or road sweeping robots? Why are they setting the S&C fees so high when they obviously don't need to? Only the TCs and *** can tell us.

    I don't think anyone is asking TCs to return the money. That'll never happen. But shouldn't we as tax payers be questioning? Why sweep things under the carpet? If NKF could decide that they have so much reserve that they can halt major donation drives for a period of time, can't the TCs do the same?

    Taken off Bishan-Toa Payoh TC website:

    "Our Mission Statement: Our mission is to provide a clean, green, well maintained and healthy environment for the residents, through close co-operation with the residents, grassroots organisations and related government agencies."

  3. #63
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    Default Re: Two town councils invested in Lehman and Morgan Stanley.

    To invest money shouldn't be a Town Council role. I always thought they receive a certain budget by Govt to run their TC.

    TC are not a corporation or Pte Ltd. To raise fund through donation or other social activities is ok but to indulge in stocks and shares sounds very wrong to me.

    Definitely money earned is not for the benefit of the resident, though as I read in the news papers they say such funds are to replace lifts every 28 years.

    Fund raising in this way is risky and wrong. Iceland went bankrupt, can our TC go bankrupt? I wonder if it is possible as our TCs are neither a company or individual.

    I'm a bit disillusioned here about TC role, in my area, I see only the same 1 cleaner sweeping floors by floors for a couple of blocks. We've also read many places where TCs are slow to clear rubbish thrown by irresponsible residents. I feel this is kind of absurd.

    To be frank, I don't demand too much from TC for the $49.50 mthly S&CC I paid but why they always need me to call them up every now and then to clear large rubbish items around my block.

    Finally, is there a directive from the government that requires TC to be self-reliant financially.

    Any TC volunteers dare to comment?
    Last edited by greenieadi; 18th November 2008 at 10:41 PM.

  4. #64
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    Default Re: Two town councils invested in Lehman and Morgan Stanley.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jango View Post
    Whether the employees in TCs are civil servants or not, or how they landed their jobs is irrelevant here. But it remains a fact that TCs as an organisation exist to provide public service. They are part of the ruling party P4P. ( http://www.P a P.org.sg/links.shtml ). There is even a chapter in the legislation for TCs - CHAPTER 329A, SECTIONS 24 AND 49.


    I don't think anyone is asking TCs to return the money. That'll never happen. But shouldn't we as tax payers be questioning? Why sweep things under the carpet? If NKF could decide that they have so much reserve that they can halt major donation drives for a period of time, can't the TCs do the same?

    Taken off Bishan-Toa Payoh TC website:

    "Our Mission Statement: Our mission is to provide a clean, green, well maintained and healthy environment for the residents, through close co-operation with the residents, grassroots organisations and related government agencies."
    not question who should/would be running the TC. rather why the TC made such an investment for risking 100% in order to get 5% ?
    Does not mean that you are volunteer and not accoutable for loss, you can jump into such investment strategy ? or was it the case that even TC DID NOT understand such structured product ? Then ..admit it.

    If TC did not understand the risk of such a product and solely rely on financial adviser..then why on earth those laymen investors who lost thier $ not being compensated..? and why only those 62 year old less educated senior citizen could get compensation ?

    There is no logic and no transparency at all.

  5. #65

    Default Re: Two town councils invested in Lehman and Morgan Stanley.

    Quote Originally Posted by wong_se View Post
    If TC did not understand the risk of such a product and solely rely on financial adviser..then why on earth those laymen investors who lost thier $ not being compensated..? and why only those 62 year old less educated senior citizen could get compensation ?
    no logic?

    are you saying that a 62 year old less educated senior citizen is equally likely to make a good, informed decision, as opposed to someone who does not fall under that category?

  6. #66

    Default Re: Two town councils invested in Lehman and Morgan Stanley.

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    no logic?

    are you saying that a 62 year old less educated senior citizen is equally likely to make a good, informed decision, as opposed to someone who does not fall under that category?
    Who knows, the TC might be run with 62 year old less educated senior citizen volunteers.

    And also was the paying public informed of the investment choices made by the TCs?
    That would make them less informed than a 62 year old less educated senior citizen.

  7. #67

    Default Re: Two town councils invested in Lehman and Morgan Stanley.

    Quote Originally Posted by mattlock View Post
    Who knows, the TC might be run with 62 year old less educated senior citizen volunteers.

    And also was the paying public informed of the investment choices made by the TCs?
    That would make them less informed than a 62 year old less educated senior citizen.
    i won't know about that;

    but that's besides the point; this is not the time to sit around and play the blame game, although i agree that accountability has to be present in some form - what is the root of the problem? not this (or bad investments), that much i know.

  8. #68

    Default Re: Two town councils invested in Lehman and Morgan Stanley.

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    i won't know about that;

    but that's besides the point; this is not the time to sit around and play the blame game, although i agree that accountability has to be present in some form - what is the root of the problem? not this (or bad investments), that much i know.
    Yes you are right, "it's an honest mistake, let's move on."

  9. #69

    Default Re: Two town councils invested in Lehman and Morgan Stanley.

    Quote Originally Posted by mattlock View Post
    Yes you are right, "it's an honest mistake, let's move on."
    nope.

    just take a look at the baby p case i posted up in kpt. do you think it is more important to ensure that nothing happens again in the future, or do sit around crying over split milk and baying for blood?

  10. #70

    Default Re: Two town councils invested in Lehman and Morgan Stanley.

    actually the TC investment is kinda surprise to me.. i am not really against using the sinking funds for investment to beat the inflation... but what came as a surprise that TC has so much of surplus but at the same time saying 'money not enough' due to the world inflation.

    i think its time the garmen need to be more transparent on the usage of the TC funds... how much is collected from the resident.. how much is use for upgrading and maintenance... how much is set aside for future works and plan of start and completion... how much is the reserve... etc.. probably its in the TC website... i didnt go and check to see... most of the uncle and auntie also...

    at least if a proper breakdown been presented to commoners like us... we can understand and pacify our frustration on why the garmen is raising fee everytime... my question to the garmen is that 'do we have a choice in all these decisions?'... my take is that as long the TC aka garmen can provide more information and transparency, think the resident can be happy.. probably the 12 million might not be that be a deal if its only less than 10% of the sinking fund... but cos people will ask why so much reserve for?

    to be frank.. i still believe in the garmen.... juz that since the sub-prime mortage crisis to food crisis.. 7% gst... singapore standard of living is increased so is the cost of living.. i understand that money dun drop from heaven.. it muz come from the taxpayer.. can gimme a bus without aircon but i pay less... i didnt chose to have air-con in the first place... my salary increment doesnt inflat with the garmen rate...

    think i go eat cup-a-noodle for the time being...
    Last edited by maximize; 18th November 2008 at 11:35 PM.

  11. #71

    Default Re: Two town councils invested in Lehman and Morgan Stanley.

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    do you think it is more important to ensure that nothing happens again in the future, or do sit around crying over split milk and baying for blood?
    Before you can ensure things don't happen again, you have to find out what went wrong and who is responsible.
    You call that "baying for blood"????

  12. #72

    Default Re: Two town councils invested in Lehman and Morgan Stanley.

    Quote Originally Posted by mattlock View Post
    Before you can ensure things don't happen again, you have to find out what went wrong and who is responsible.
    You call that "baying for blood"????
    who is responsible for making people buy into these things?

    let's put this into context, if people bought a camera from a local camera shop, and they were attended to by a salesman who didn't know what he was talking about or selling; and they bought something like a mutant d3 - a d3 which looks like a d3, has all the functions of a d3, but produces pictures like a hello kitty camera.. you're saying that the blame should be all on the camera salesman?

    are we talking about entirely different things when i say "baying for blood" and those other things?

  13. #73

    Default Re: Two town councils invested in Lehman and Morgan Stanley.

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    who is responsible for making people buy into these things?

    let's put this into context, if people bought a camera from a local camera shop, and they were attended to by a salesman who didn't know what he was talking about or selling; and they bought something like a mutant d3 - a d3 which looks like a d3, has all the functions of a d3, but produces pictures like a hello kitty camera.. you're saying that the blame should be all on the camera salesman?

    are we talking about entirely different things when i say "baying for blood" and those other things?
    this is my last reply to you, because I think that some of your posts are for the sake of playing the devil's advocate. Your analogy makes no sense.

    Town councils invested their money in bad financial products.
    Financial products all come with risks, understandable. This is NOT the topic of debate here. We are looking at something more fundamental.

    First and foremost, what is the town council's role.

    Secondly, should it be investing people's money (paid as compulsory fees) in a way that is unsafe and not transparent to the people who are paying these fees. It is allowed by the government but whether this is an appropriate role for Town Councils to play is the question.
    The huge surpluses raise the question of whether the Town Councils have any justification to keep raising the conservancy fees too. In fact a whole bag of issues are raised.

    Town Councils are not businesses.
    Quoting Mr Wang: "It's as if the town council were a fund manager or a unit trust. Except that you as customer are never going to get a cent back. "

    http://mrwangsaysso.blogspot.com/200...your-town.html
    Last edited by mattlock; 18th November 2008 at 11:51 PM.

  14. #74

    Default Re: Two town councils invested in Lehman and Morgan Stanley.

    Quote Originally Posted by mattlock View Post
    this is my last reply to you, because I think that some of your posts are for the sake of playing the devil's advocate. Your analogy makes no sense.

    Town councils invested their money in bad financial products.
    Financial products all come with risks, understandable. This is NOT the topic of debate here. We are looking at something more fundamental.
    apologies, i thought you were talking about who to blame regarding bad investments, because of the slew of posts regarding that (around yours). about what you were actually talking about, i have no idea. from what i see , town councils all over the uk do the same thing, it has been a hot topic online here as well.

    in any case, i was talking about the fact that too many people place the blame on their magical "financial advisors".
    Last edited by night86mare; 18th November 2008 at 11:55 PM.

  15. #75
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    Default Re: Two town councils invested in Lehman and Morgan Stanley.

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    apologies, i thought you were talking about who to blame regarding bad investments, because of the slew of posts regarding that (around yours). about what you were actually talking about, i have no idea. from what i see , town councils all over the uk do the same thing, it has been a hot topic online here as well.

    in any case, i was talking about the fact that too many people place the blame on their magical "financial advisors".
    This is my last post to you about this subject too.

  16. #76

    Default Re: Two town councils invested in Lehman and Morgan Stanley.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sion View Post
    This is my last post to you about this subject too.
    This is my last post to you about this last post.

  17. #77

    Default Re: Two town councils invested in Lehman and Morgan Stanley.

    are we in a who post the last post wins?
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  18. #78

    Default Re: Two town councils invested in Lehman and Morgan Stanley.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wibblo View Post
    are we in a who post the last post wins?
    This is my last post to you.

  19. #79
    Senior Member Sion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two town councils invested in Lehman and Morgan Stanley.

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    This is my last post to you about this last post.
    This is my last last post to you about your last post.

    Okay?

  20. #80

    Default Re: Two town councils invested in Lehman and Morgan Stanley.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sion View Post
    This is my last last post to you about your last post.

    Okay?
    Since you have changed the subject to "last last post to me"

    This is my last post to you again.

    Okay.

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