Suggestion of Non-Profitable MO

[catchlights]

MO = Mass Order, in some other forums are using the term as Bulk Purchase, Group Order, Group Purchase.

The basic idea is gather a group of people to place consolidate order of some photographic item for a best deal in term of price.

Regarding some MO issues being rise in this thread, wish to have some discussion on non profitable MO, and hope to work out kind of mutual agreement among CSers of how a profitable MO should be conduct, and the Admins of CS able to give green light and lay down guild line of for profitable MO.

[teebs]

Originally Posted by catchlights MO = Mass Order, in some other forums are using the term as Bulk Purchase, Group Order, Group Purchase. The basic idea is gather a group of people to place consolidate order of some photographic item for a best deal in term of price. Regarding some MO issues being rise in this thread, wish to have some discussion on non profitable MO, and hope to work out kind of mutual agreement among CSers of how a profitable MO should be conduct, and the Admins of CS able to give green light and lay down guild line of for profitable MO.

Ummm...Are you looking for a discussion on non profitable MO or profitable MO?

Non Profitable MOs in most other forums are called SPREES. Wat happens is that the TS will indicate to people that he/she is buying something from a certain website/merchant on his thread. Exchage rate is usually indicated as well as estimated shipping costs, final pickup location and deposit required. Other people interested in any product from that website will post their replies to the thread with the item they want and the price in SGD. After TS has confirmed the orders and deposits have been made, the orders will be placed to the merchant.

Two issues to take note of though is that orders are normally limited to $350 or less as any item imported into Singapore that is more than $400 (including Shipping costs) will incur GST and the pickup location is usually dependent on the TS. Since no profit is made by the TS, collection is at locations that are convenient to the TS.

[jeanie]

catchlights,

one thing i dont understand at all.

IF there is no profit earn from a MO< then WHY organise a MO in the first place?

just buy it yourself.
or whoever wants it, then buy it himself/herself lor.

simple and straightfoward.

yes?no?

[Xiao_shin]

I belive the forum admin charged a small fee to help this forum going.

It is very difficult if not impossible to "prove" that the MO is non-profitable.

Perhaps, limit the MO to a small amount like 5 or 10. If there really is any profit, it will be very little. Just take it as coffee money for the starter of the MO.

On the other hand, if the starter of the MO is reputable like Admin. It could be done.

[Xiao_shin]

Originally Posted by jeanie catchlights, one thing i dont understand at all. IF there is no profit earn from a MO< then WHY organise a MO in the first place? just buy it yourself. or whoever wants it, then buy it himself/herself lor. simple and straightfoward. yes?no?

He is refering to bulk order where you will get a lower price. If buy 1 pay $1000. If buy 10, get 10% off.


simple and straightfoward.

yes? no?

[teebs]

Originally Posted by jeanie catchlights, one thing i dont understand at all. IF there is no profit earn from a MO< then WHY organise a MO in the first place? just buy it yourself. or whoever wants it, then buy it himself/herself lor. simple and straightfoward. yes?no?

The concept of MO is actually to save on the product cost due to:

1) Lower price overseas
2) Consolidated shipping means lower shipping costs per unit

E.g Raynox MSN202 is sold at $145 in Singapore

On Amazon.com, price is USD 75 ~ SGD 115
Shipping to Singapore by vPost is ard $25, so total cost is SGD 140, meaning you save $5 buy it yourself on Amazon.

However, if there are 3 people buying it together, shipping cost per item is only ard $8 so the item cost becomes SGD 123 and each person saves $22 from the local price in Singapore.

A savings of $5 means that it is not practical to buy the product yourself from Amazon but a savings of $22 is a different proposition altogether.

[teebs]

Originally Posted by Xiao_shin I belive the forum admin charged a small fee to help this forum going. It is very difficult if not impossible to "prove" that the MO is non-profitable. Perhaps, limit the MO to a small amount like 5 or 10. If there really is any profit, it will be very little. Just take it as coffee money for the starter of the MO. On the other hand, if the starter of the MO is reputable like Admin. It could be done.

Usually for Sprees or MOs on other forums, the principle is very simple. All prices are transparent. Spree organiser will order form a single website/retailer and the price is known to everyone participating in the Spree/MO. Currency exchange rate is estimated and final one will be made known to everyone participating by the Spree organiser when the amount is billed to his credit card account. Likewise shipping charges will be made known to everyone through scanning of the shipping invoice.

Thus, in most circumstances, no profit is made by the spree organiser. One may then question why people go through all the trouble if no profit is made. Reason simply is that the spree organiser also needs to order something from the website/retailer and benefit to him/her is the cost savings from the consolidated shipping.

[catchlights]

Originally Posted by teebs Ummm...Are you looking for a discussion on non profitable MO or profitable MO? Non Profitable MOs in most other forums are called SPREES. Wat happens is that the TS will indicate to people that he/she is buying something from a certain website/merchant on his thread. Exchage rate is usually indicated as well as estimated shipping costs, final pickup location and deposit required. Other people interested in any product from that website will post their replies to the thread with the item they want and the price in SGD. After TS has confirmed the orders and deposits have been made, the orders will be placed to the merchant. Two issues to take note of though is that orders are normally limited to $350 or less as any item imported into Singapore that is more than $400 (including Shipping costs) will incur GST and the pickup location is usually dependent on the TS. Since no profit is made by the TS, collection is at locations that are convenient to the TS.

SPREES is usually group buy from oversea, the Non-Profitable MO does not limit to oversea.

[catchlights]

Originally Posted by jeanie catchlights, one thing i dont understand at all. IF there is no profit earn from a MO< then WHY organise a MO in the first place? just buy it yourself. or whoever wants it, then buy it himself/herself lor. simple and straightfoward. yes?no?

to enjoy a little saving, my dear.....

[catchlights]

Originally Posted by Xiao_shin I belive the forum admin charged a small fee to help this forum going. It is very difficult if not impossible to "prove" that the MO is non-profitable. Perhaps, limit the MO to a small amount like 5 or 10. If there really is any profit, it will be very little. Just take it as coffee money for the starter of the MO. On the other hand, if the starter of the MO is reputable like Admin. It could be done.

if you would notice, the MO long long time ago is mostly one time event, the CSer conducting MO state very clear if he able to get how many order, and the final cost is how much.

He does not keep stock, and the item he order is for own consume.

the main idea is everyone enjoy saving, not making profit from it.

[catchlights]

Originally Posted by teebs The concept of MO is actually to save on the product cost due to: 1) Lower price overseas 2) Consolidated shipping means lower shipping costs per unit E.g Raynox MSN202 is sold at $145 in Singapore On Amazon.com, price is USD 75 ~ SGD 115 Shipping to Singapore by vPost is ard $25, so total cost is SGD 140, meaning you save $5 buy it yourself on Amazon. However, if there are 3 people buying it together, shipping cost per item is only ard $8 so the item cost becomes SGD 123 and each person saves $22 from the local price in Singapore. A savings of $5 means that it is not practical to buy the product yourself from Amazon but a savings of $22 is a different proposition altogether.

yes, that's the whole idea about.

[catchlights]

Originally Posted by teebs Usually for Sprees or MOs on other forums, the principle is very simple. All prices are transparent. Spree organiser will order form a single website/retailer and the price is known to everyone participating in the Spree/MO. Currency exchange rate is estimated and final one will be made known to everyone participating by the Spree organiser when the amount is billed to his credit card account. Likewise shipping charges will be made known to everyone through scanning of the shipping invoice. Thus, in most circumstances, no profit is made by the spree organiser. One may then question why people go through all the trouble if no profit is made. Reason simply is that the spree organiser also needs to order something from the website/retailer and benefit to him/her is the cost savings from the consolidated shipping.

Even have profit from the MO also does not justify the time, effort and risk of organizing a MO.

what is your view? and other people views too.

[vince123123]

This is a new thread specifically to discuss the feasibility of non-Profit MOs which will fall outside the usual "pay to advertise" scheme currently within ClubSnap.

I was personally quite unaware of the exception for non-Profit MOs and thought that ALL MOs will need to pay to advertise.

That said, given that there may now be potential to consider and structure this exception in a formalised and clearer way, I am starting this thread with the blessings of the moderator in the last thread.

I have also quoted the relevant discussions as follows:

Originally Posted by Roygoh Good questions Vince123123. If we are going to discuss about how we can conduct non-profit MOs on CS I'd relly hate to have that discussed in this thread...the thread title is just too offensive. I believe I have addressed the 2 main questions raised in this thread, so I am hereby closing it. If anyone has good suggestions about how to conduct non-profit MOs on CS please start a new thread in feedback. I am not promising anything on behalf of the entire admin/mod team. But a healthy discussion is always welcomed. Thanks! -Roy

Originally Posted by Del_CtrlnoAlt Transparency is the key, for most MOs that are non-profit, the easiest way is to be transparent and state upfront the cost involve, the shipping charges, etc... For eg, MO for xxx. Item cost - $9.90 per item before shipping Minimum number to go ahead - 20 Maximum number for this MO - 30 (dun wanna incur gst, etc) Shipping cost - $20 Then you can scan the invoice to show everyone that you don't profit from it. Its like the post refered by the TS, the other guy just consolidate the list and money was not given to him for deposit or otherwise, list given to the vendor and the nicks in the list will be given the discount. Anyway, this is just my idea... you guys may offer some ideas of how to be transparent in the ways to conduct non-profit MOs in CS. Pm me if needed, then i consolidate and propose. If its a win-win situation, and nobody is exploiting anyone of us, i think its definitely better for the entire society.

Originally Posted by vince123123 One question I have, if there is an exception for non-profit MOs, should this exception be stated clearly in an official statement or rule somewhere (maybe in the thread regarding paying to start MOs) so that there won't be further misunderstanding? I wasn't really aware there was such an exception. On an enforcement part, how does the Admin/Mod ensure that the MO is really non-profit? If this works out well, it will be good, because I have wanted to start such non profit MOs for quite a while with an intention to share shipping/bring unavailable products in Singapore to other CSers. Thanks!

Hopefully this can be taken up and new guidelines drawn to formalise the exception for non-Profit MOs so everyone can benefit.

[teebs]

Originally Posted by catchlights Even have profit from the MO also does not justify the time, effort and risk of organizing a MO. what is your view? and other people views too.

I believe that most people feel for profit MOs are justifiable otherwise there won't be paid advertisers in the Mass Sales section...

For non profit MO organisers, at least in my personal case, the main reason for doing such an unproductive & generally unappreciated work is the cost savings I get from consolidated shipping.

The only issue I forsee here is when non profit MOs and profit MOs offer the same items...

Then in this case, what will be the mods and admins decision? To allow both to run concurrently and incur the wrath of the paid advertisers or to forbid not for profit MOs for the products that the advertisers are already selling, thus incurring the wrath of ordinary CSers???

[catchlights]

when last time before MO organizer is not chargeable, (last time whereas CS policeman still wearing shorts ) the Mods do make a point that no two persons MO for the same item at a same time, nowadays is still the same.

however, nowadays, MO are profit driven, so organizers only find those popular and more demanding items for conducting MO,

if a CSer came across some items are less popular, and would like to gather a few people to place an order together, to enjoy saving on shipping or discount. so is this type of MO ok or not ok? I hope CS should have a clear guideline on this.

[vince123123]

Oops looks like there's another thread already. Would appreciate a merging and closing.

Thanks!

[vince123123]

The reason why there are paid advertisers is because the current rule is that ALL MO organisers need to be paid subscribers. In the past, ALL MO organisers did not need to be paid subscribers.

We are now discussing a potential exception to the requirement of being a paid subscriber for non-Profit MOs, as the mods have indicated that they have made an execption for some non-Profit MOs already.

Finally, in my experience conducting MOs back in 2005 here, other than consolidated shipping, you can also get bulk discounts from the manufacturers. Its all about how good your negotiation skill is.

Originally Posted by teebs I believe that most people feel for profit MOs are justifiable otherwise there won't be paid advertisers in the Mass Sales section... For non profit MO organisers, at least in my personal case, the main reason for doing such an unproductive & generally unappreciated work is the cost savings I get from consolidated shipping. The only issue I forsee here is when non profit MOs and profit MOs offer the same items... Then in this case, what will be the mods and admins decision? To allow both to run concurrently and incur the wrath of the paid advertisers or to forbid not for profit MOs for the products that the advertisers are already selling, thus incurring the wrath of ordinary CSers???

[vince123123]

catchlights: whilst that was the unofficial rule, some did slip through the cracks. I had my MO being crashed by others before.

One unscrupulous MO organiser tried to do that to me the first time. I then lodged a complaint. The second time, guess what he did. After seeing that I had the required mass of orders, he went to the overseas supplier, and snapped up ALL (yes 100%) of the stocks inbound for Singapore ahead of me (I needed to collect $$ before ordering).

Hence, I had no choice but to buy from him in order to meet the MO orders. I did also lodge a complaint to the overseas supplier who has since been informed about the underhanded tactics

But yes, I hope to have a clear guideline as well. Now it seems to be an adhoc basis of exceptions.

Originally Posted by catchlights when last time before MO organizer is not chargeable, (last time whereas CS policeman still wearing shorts ) the Mods do make a point that no two persons MO for the same item at a same time, nowadays is still the same. however, nowadays, MO are profit driven, so organizers only find those popular and more demanding items for conducting MO, if a CSer came across some items are less popular, and would like to gather a few people to place an order together, to enjoy saving on shipping or discount. so is this type of MO ok or not ok? I hope CS should have a clear guideline on this.

[catchlights]

Originally Posted by vince123123 catchlights: whilst that was the unofficial rule, some did slip through the cracks. I had my MO being crashed by others before. One unscrupulous MO organiser tried to do that to me the first time. I then lodged a complaint. The second time, guess what he did. After seeing that I had the required mass of orders, he went to the overseas supplier, and snapped up ALL (yes 100%) of the stocks inbound for Singapore ahead of me (I needed to collect $$ before ordering). Hence, I had no choice but to buy from him in order to meet the MO orders. I did also lodge a complaint to the overseas supplier who has since been informed about the underhanded tactics But yes, I hope to have a clear guideline as well. Now it seems to be an adhoc basis of exceptions.

I guess this particular individual is all out for profit, no ethic or intension of helping other CSers by organizing MO.

[catchlights]

btw, I have no issue on the policy for MO organisers need to pay for conducting MO. but hope to have a clear guideline for Non-Profitable MO.