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Thread: Color management with display, photoshop and printer

  1. #1

    Default Color management with display, photoshop and printer

    Hi all,

    Is there any best practices for color management to get WYSIWYG with the display, photoshop and printer. I have tried numerous combination of settings with these components. Somehow I just couldn't get a printout (on Canon's Photo Paper Plug Glossy II) from my Canon MP510 to be consistent with the display image. I calibrated my lcd using the NVIDIA control panel for screen optimisation. With photoshop, I set the color profile to AdobeRGB and tuned the pictures to my liking. When it comes to printing, I have tried these two combination:

    1. If I set the input profile (at the printer properties' color correction) to AdobeRGB, I get a printout that is slightly reddish and more saturated.
    2. If I leave the printer's color correction unchanged, or set it to ICM, the printout will appear hazy/foggy!

    Though I have no hardware with my display optimization, I believe I shouldn't be too far off from the correct color. But then you never know, I may actually be seeing wrong color.

    So the point here is ... can anyone please share how you get WYSIWYG with photo printouts.

    Thanks.
    cs
    Last edited by hemohemo; 26th October 2008 at 03:50 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Color management with display, photoshop and printer

    1st of all, the consumer type of LCD screen is not good(But does not means can not) for color management. Unless the LCD that allow u to do hardware calibration like what Eizo is selling.
    2ndly, only calibrate your monitor with a hardware like i1XTreme or spyder3pro or some other screen calibration products to achieve accuracy of color reproduction on the screen that u r seeing. "NVIDIA control panel for screen optimization" is just a built in software that does not create monitor color profile for u.
    3rdly, create a paper profile with the above mentioned hardware for the particular paper that u r printing from the printer.
    Lastly, "Photoshop Color Setting" must be set correctly to handle the photo that u r printing.

    I think there's only one way to the solution. Get the screen and printer calibrator, read and learn from the manual that come with it carefully. Then u should b getting somewhere. What to learn more? Go here.
    F3,F4,D70s,D3,1424,1735,2035,2470,2870,3570,80200, 80400,28PC, 351.4,Z352,501.2,Z851.4,MIR500

  3. #3
    Moderator Octarine's Avatar
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    Default Re: Color management with display, photoshop and printer

    Nothing to add, all said. If you want WYSIWYG then make sure that you see the colours correctly in the first place. The digital information must be properly converted into the right output at screen considering the individual characteristics of each screen - that's calibration. It has to be done for every single screen, don't try to import a calibration profile from a friend who has the same monitor. Only if you have this reference for your screen then you can adjust the print output to be identical.

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    Default Re: Color management with display, photoshop and printer

    so that means there is no software that can help to calibrate the color of the monitor?
    In the eyes of the beholder!

  5. #5

    Default Re: Color management with display, photoshop and printer

    Quote Originally Posted by Octarine View Post
    Nothing to add, all said. If you want WYSIWYG then make sure that you see the colours correctly in the first place. The digital information must be properly converted into the right output at screen considering the individual characteristics of each screen - that's calibration. It has to be done for every single screen, don't try to import a calibration profile from a friend who has the same monitor. Only if you have this reference for your screen then you can adjust the print output to be identical.
    Indeed!

    Quote Originally Posted by undergrd View Post
    so that means there is no software that can help to calibrate the color of the monitor?
    Indeed!
    F3,F4,D70s,D3,1424,1735,2035,2470,2870,3570,80200, 80400,28PC, 351.4,Z352,501.2,Z851.4,MIR500

  6. #6

    Default Re: Color management with display, photoshop and printer

    sorry to hijack, but would like to check, the printer's color profile,
    should it be the same as your screen profile? or the same as photoshop profile?

    since i would wan the print to match my screen, i suppose i should be using my screen's profile on the printer?

  7. #7

    Default Re: Color management with display, photoshop and printer

    Quote Originally Posted by wdEvA View Post
    sorry to hijack, but would like to check, the printer's color profile,
    should it be the same as your screen profile? or the same as photoshop profile?

    since i would wan the print to match my screen, i suppose i should be using my screen's profile on the printer?
    uuh.... U can work around to get it right, but it's wrong actually!

    Use of screen's profile in printing might give u the matching look printout. Actually it will not have good gradient tone. A small 4R or 5R might b ok but not bigger print.
    F3,F4,D70s,D3,1424,1735,2035,2470,2870,3570,80200, 80400,28PC, 351.4,Z352,501.2,Z851.4,MIR500

  8. #8
    Moderator Octarine's Avatar
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    Default Re: Color management with display, photoshop and printer

    Quote Originally Posted by wdEvA View Post
    sorry to hijack, but would like to check, the printer's color profile,
    should it be the same as your screen profile? or the same as photoshop profile?

    since i would wan the print to match my screen, i suppose i should be using my screen's profile on the printer?
    No, that doesn't work.
    Profiling means to determine the deviation of one single device from the technically ideal parameter set and to correct it. That means: if your monitor is too cold (shows too much blue - like most of the LCDs you can buy) then the profile will correct this by adding a warm offset. Adding these two things (blue tendency and warm calibration parameter) will result in a neutral colour rendering. (The example is very much simplified!) The profile of your monitor has no correlation to your printer and paper. They will have their own specific behaviour in reproducing the colours, so they need dedicated calibration after your monitor is calibrated.
    Do note that a printer profile is only valid for a certain type of paper. Other kinds of paper can bring different colour reproduction although it's the same printer.

  9. #9
    Moderator Octarine's Avatar
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    Default Re: Color management with display, photoshop and printer

    Quote Originally Posted by undergrd View Post
    so that means there is no software that can help to calibrate the color of the monitor?
    You need software in the first place. But the question is: what do you use to measure the output of the screen? Either you can use your eyes or you can use hardware tools.
    Software can help you to get a very basic profile but it won't be very accurate since the human eye is easily fooled and easily tired. You can google for it and you'l find some tools (e.g. Monitor Calibration Wizard). But to get a good calibration there is no way around some hardware tools. Spyder2, Spyder3 and others can help you here but they cost money. Decide what you need and get what is necessary. Check B&S section for 2nd hand offers, can save some money. The Mass Sales section has new products for slightly less money than in the shops.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Color management with display, photoshop and printer

    I would say that within limits, a consumer monitor can fit into a pretty reasonable colour managed workflow... and certainly, while most monitors might not be able to handle the full Adobe RGB gamut, the gamuts of most monitors beat that of most printers so there's a bit of give in that respect... what one needs is to profile their monitor (note: profile, not calibrate... calibration involves adjusting the monitor itself and requires higher end monitors as well as equipment to make it worthwhile)...

    profiling involves getting a profiling device which creates a profile of your monitor, which is basically a "map" of the colours that your monitor can produce, and how your computer can get your monitor to produce these colours... this monitor profile is employed by your operating system (via the profiling software that comes with the profiling device) to control the colour of your monitor... but note that this profile should not be use as the colour space in Photoshop nor should it be used as the profile for print... it is a profile for your monitor and only that...

    when printing, if using Photoshop, you should make sure that the option for colour handling is "Photoshop Manages Colors", and that you switch off all colour management in your printer (to find out how to do that, consult your manual )... this is to allow Photoshop to be the only one controlling the colour of the print and to prevent the printer from trying to adjust the colour as well... Photoshop management of the colour is preferred as it is a more flexible tool to control colour rather than depending on the printer driver...

    in the print dialog as well, make sure to select the correct paper profile... while making your own profile might possibly ensure the best results, it is usually not necessary, enhancements might only be minimal, and the profiles provided by the printer companies are usually good enough for most, even commercial, use...

    and a good thing to do to try to see how prints would come out without actually doing a test print would be to "soft proof" the image to be printed... do this by selecting the correct proof profile and activating "Proof Colors" in Photoshop... use the gamut warning option at your discretion... YMMV... but of course, soft proofing is only useful if your monitor is profiled in the first place...

  11. #11

    Default Re: Color management with display, photoshop and printer

    what's a cheap printer calibrator? Spyder /Huey etc are for monitors right?

  12. #12

    Default Re: Color management with display, photoshop and printer

    hi TS, could i crash ur thread for a while? Hope my qns benefits all...

    I use spyderExpress to calibrate but whenever my RAW files opens up in Photoshop, it is not able to select the spyder profile.
    Thus whenever I am done with my RAW adjustments in photoshop, the picture will then be opened in the photoshop window but colors are slightly different from what i see previously when doing RAW adjustments.

  13. #13
    Moderator Octarine's Avatar
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    Default Re: Color management with display, photoshop and printer

    Quote Originally Posted by di0nysus View Post
    what's a cheap printer calibrator? Spyder /Huey etc are for monitors right?
    Spyder 2 Suite comes with printer profiling (thanks theRBK for pointing out), but I haven't used it yet.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Color management with display, photoshop and printer

    Quote Originally Posted by hemohemo View Post
    Hi all,

    Is there any best practices for color management to get WYSIWYG with the display, photoshop and printer. I have tried numerous combination of settings with these components. Somehow I just couldn't get a printout (on Canon's Photo Paper Plug Glossy II) from my Canon MP510 to be consistent with the display image. I calibrated my lcd using the NVIDIA control panel for screen optimisation. With photoshop, I set the color profile to AdobeRGB and tuned the pictures to my liking. When it comes to printing, I have tried these two combination:

    1. If I set the input profile (at the printer properties' color correction) to AdobeRGB, I get a printout that is slightly reddish and more saturated.
    2. If I leave the printer's color correction unchanged, or set it to ICM, the printout will appear hazy/foggy!

    Though I have no hardware with my display optimization, I believe I shouldn't be too far off from the correct color. But then you never know, I may actually be seeing wrong color.

    So the point here is ... can anyone please share how you get WYSIWYG with photo printouts.

    Thanks.
    cs
    I assume you are printing from Photoshop. Off the bat, the first step towards getting the picture you see on screen and the picture printed in "sync" is to calibrate your monitor using a hardware calibrator. You'd be surprised how far off you can be without that. Unless you are extremely particular, most of the time, the canned paper profile that comes with the printer is good enough. Here's a rough guide to achieve WYSIWYG (or near that).

    a) Calibrate monitor using hardware.

    Soft proofing,
    b) In photoshop, with your picture opened, create a duplicate and set the original as proof. The picture will become dull as the contrast ration for paper is much lower than the monitor.
    c) Using the duplicate for comparison, adj the pic on the original using curves and hue/saturation or any other means until the 2 pics more or less match each other.

    Upon printing,
    d) set color management as ICM.
    e) set "photoshop manages color"
    f) set rendering intent as "relative colorimetric"
    g) set printer profile to the profile for that paper
    f) Print

    Hope above helps.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Color management with display, photoshop and printer

    Quote Originally Posted by Octarine View Post
    Spyder 2 Suite comes with printer profiling (thanks theRBK for pointing out), but I haven't used it yet.
    er... I don't think I pointed out that Spyder 2 Suite comes with printer profiling... if you mean pointing out printer profiling as a process, sure

    the main options for affordable (a relative term...) printer profiling are Spyder3 Studio, Spyder3 Print, PrintFix Pro (if you can still find it... was replaced with the Spyder3 series but you never know...), and ColorMunki... but really, the profiles from the printer and paper manufacturers are good enough for most uses...
    Quote Originally Posted by dingzyangz View Post
    hi TS, could i crash ur thread for a while? Hope my qns benefits all...

    I use spyderExpress to calibrate but whenever my RAW files opens up in Photoshop, it is not able to select the spyder profile.
    Thus whenever I am done with my RAW adjustments in photoshop, the picture will then be opened in the photoshop window but colors are slightly different from what i see previously when doing RAW adjustments.
    don't really understand your situation... your computer operating system, OSX or Windows, should, along with the software that came with the profiling hardware, handle the monitor profile and control the monitor directly... Photoshop should not need to do anything... could you describe your process in detail, probably preferably in a new thread
    Quote Originally Posted by lightbrush View Post
    Off the bat, the first step towards getting the picture you see on screen and the picture printed in "sync" is to calibrate your monitor using a hardware calibrator.
    again, I stress, its profiling, not calibration... diff things... profiling takes into account what the device can do and works around it, calibration actually adjusts the output characteristics of the device

  16. #16
    Moderator Octarine's Avatar
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    Default Re: Color management with display, photoshop and printer

    Quote Originally Posted by theRBK View Post
    er... I don't think I pointed out that Spyder 2 Suite comes with printer profiling... if you mean pointing out printer profiling as a process, sure
    Yes, I refer to profiling. I noticed that I also use the term 'calibration' where it is only a profiling. Thanks for reminding.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Color management with display, photoshop and printer

    Quote Originally Posted by theRBK View Post
    again, I stress, its profiling, not calibration... diff things... profiling takes into account what the device can do and works around it, calibration actually adjusts the output characteristics of the device
    Thks for explaining the difference. I am clearer now

  18. #18

    Default Re: Color management with display, photoshop and printer

    F3,F4,D70s,D3,1424,1735,2035,2470,2870,3570,80200, 80400,28PC, 351.4,Z352,501.2,Z851.4,MIR500

  19. #19

    Default Re: Color management with display, photoshop and printer

    Quote Originally Posted by BeeHive View Post
    I have same problem with SPYder3 and canon MP510 & canon LP5000...follow the step after results still no synchronize , same problem yellow cast at every print out....

  20. #20

    Default Re: Color management with display, photoshop and printer

    I didn't get satisfactory results from my set up until I ponied up for the Spyder2Pro Studio kit which includes both a monitor and a printer profiler. Followed the simple instructions to create profiles for my monitor and printer (for a variety of papers), set up Photoshop accordingly and got the WYSIWYG that I desired.

    The monitor profiling was just about entirely automated ie. the software just about did everything on its own once I set up the analyser to centre on the monitor and hit the start button. The printer profiling process is somewhat more labour intensive. You have to print the swatch sheets (the easy part). This consists of sheets filled with colour swatches. Then you use the print analyser to sample every colour swatch (the tiring part) on the sheets you printed. If you are going to print in black and white, you will have to repeat the process again but this time with black and white swatches (read as even more tiring). Interestingly. each time you sample a swatch, the software will show on screen, the shade of colour you should be getting for that swatch (the target) and the shade colour you actually have got printed. Almost every colour was off. Many were way way way off. Once the software has the data it needs, it produces the printer profile which you install to work with your graphics software, in my case, Photoshop and your print driver.

    The good news is that you only have to do this once for every paper you intend to use your printer to print on. In my case I use a gloss, an archival matte paper and a rag paper so I had to repeat the process three times to produce the three print profiles needed. About under an hour of time needed for each. Time worthwhile invested in my opinion.
    Last edited by Alliance; 17th November 2008 at 03:11 PM.

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