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Thread: Rereading Karl Marx

  1. #1

    Default Rereading Karl Marx

    Marx popular amid Credit Crunch

    Maybe there needs to be another economic model other than capitalism.

    Even Alan Greenspan thinks he is wrong, partly:
    "Those of us who have looked to the self-interest of lending institutions to protect shareholder's equity -- myself especially -- are in a state of shocked disbelief"
    The congressional committee's Democratic chairman, Henry Waxman, pressed him: "You found that your view of the world, your ideology, was not right, it was not working?" Greenspan agreed: "That's precisely the reason I was shocked because I'd been going for 40 years or so with considerable evidence that it was working exceptionally well."
    A few interesting insights here:

    1. Look after yourself, no one else would.
    2. 40 years of evidence still not necessarily be right. (This is Popperism for those who knows Popper.)
    3. what is wrong is wrong no matter how right it may look.
    4. what is right is right no matter how wrong it may look.
    5. what is wrong bites back at you, very hard.
    6. most of the time we dont know, we just believe, rightly or wrongly.
    Last edited by espion; 24th October 2008 at 11:42 AM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Rereading Karl Marx

    Kaputalism ?



    System is fine, but to err is human

  3. #3

    Default Re: Rereading Karl Marx

    Quote Originally Posted by Benign View Post
    System is fine ...
    And "fine" means?

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    Default Re: Rereading Karl Marx

    Quote Originally Posted by espion View Post
    And "fine" means?

    Whether it is socialism or capitalism, it is workable! But human nature is more unpredictable than the system itself. Throughout history, the main reason for such failure is GREED!

    Instead, maybe we should educate ourselves to be contented and responsible in our work!



    Here is an interesting article: http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sto...86-662,00.html

    Aussie broker knocks back $330m bonus


    April 24, 2008 01:00pm

    AN Australian who gave up a bonus of up to $330 million has hired his own public relations team as his decision causes a sensation in London.
    Greg Coffey, 36, knocked back the bonus when he quit London-based hedge fund GLG Partners this week to set up his own business.

    Reached at his office today, Mr Coffey said he was too busy managing his massive funds to discuss his pending move.

    "I'm running a really large portfolio and I'm always trying to act in the best interests of my investors," he said.

    "I can't really spend time on this sort of stuff . . . I'm going to give you someone who is representing me."

    With billions of dollars resting on his every decision, who could blame him.

    Mr Coffey runs emerging market funds worth $7.3 billion for GLG.

    The success of the funds has earned him an exceptional reputation and salary to match.

    For his efforts he earns a salary up to a startling $158 million a year, making him one of the most highly paid workers in world finance.

    But in deciding to go out on his own, he had to forfeit $330 million in shares he had earned as bonuses, the Evening Standard reported.

    The married father of two, who lives in a $12 million home in Chelsea, sent financial circles into a spin with the announcement.

    One afternoon newspaper carried a front page headline about the "hunk" who had given up a guaranteed fortune.

    Attention was drawn to Mr Coffey's good looks, thick shoulder-length hair and preference for wearing casual clothes such as jeans instead of suits.

    However the graduate from Sydney's Macquarie University did his best to avoid the spotlight, directing enquiries to financial communications company Tulchan.

    "I'd really prefer no stories to be written," he said.

    Spokesman Andrew Honnor said Mr Coffey was a "very, very low key individual".

    "He's hired us to represent him so we are his PR advisers," Mr Honnor confirmed.

    "He's not doing interviews I'm afraid. It's not appropriate, he's still contracted with GLG."

    Mr Coffey's earnings brought in as much as 60 per cent of his company's total performance fees last year.

    One of his main funds was up almost 51 per cent last year and 60 per cent the year before, making him one of the two most successful hedge fund managers internationally, it was reported.

    Mr Coffey is expected to take a large portion of his clients with him when he leaves in October in a major blow for the New York-listed GLG. Shares in the company dived on speculation about the move last week.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Rereading Karl Marx

    Marx was wrong. So many people tried their system, created "Revolutions" to replace the bourgeois, and what has it got North Korea, East Germany, Cuba, USSR, China, etc?

    What happened happened because the pendulum swung too far, ie the regulators gave banks too much freedom. Now the pendulum will swing the other way. Which will also cause problems, but that's a separate matter.

    However, the capitalist system and ideology, ie the fundamental principles of private enterprise and free markets, will remain.

    Quote Originally Posted by espion View Post
    Marx popular amid Credit Crunch

    Maybe there needs to be another economic model other than capitalism.

    Even Alan Greenspan thinks he is wrong, partly:


    A few interesting insights here:

    1. Look after yourself, no one else would.
    2. 40 years of evidence still not necessarily be right. (This is Popperism for those who knows Popper.)
    3. what is wrong is wrong no matter how right it may look.
    4. what is right is right no matter how wrong it may look.
    5. what is wrong bites back at you, very hard.
    6. most of the time we dont know, we just believe, rightly or wrongly.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Sion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rereading Karl Marx

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong View Post
    However, the capitalist system and ideology, ie the fundamental principles of private enterprise and free markets, will remain.
    So is Canonism on which the rock of fine photography is built on.

    If it's in the hands of Karl Marx the State will give every proletariot a dslr and every commune will be well stocked with L lenses free to be used by the masses.

    Now I'll call that Canumism.
    Last edited by Sion; 24th October 2008 at 05:56 PM.

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    Default Re: Rereading Karl Marx

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong View Post
    What happened happened because the pendulum swung too far, ie the regulators gave banks too much freedom. Now the pendulum will swing the other way. Which will also cause problems, but that's a separate matter.

    how come the balls cannot find balance, cant the balls stop swinging?

    must be some really hard ball to catch & stay put...



    *boink boink boink goes the balls...

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    Default Re: Rereading Karl Marx

    i always tot safeguards are in place...

  9. #9
    Senior Member Sion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rereading Karl Marx

    Quote Originally Posted by sORe-EyEz View Post
    how come the balls cannot find balance, cant the balls stop swinging?

    must be some really hard ball to catch & stay put...
    It's anatomically impossible.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Rereading Karl Marx

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong View Post
    Marx was wrong. So many people tried their system, created "Revolutions" to replace the bourgeois, and what has it got North Korea, East Germany, Cuba, USSR, China, etc?
    Marx was not wrong. He was simply too idealistic. Well, in that you could say he was wrong. In a perfect world, with perfect people and perfect leaders, socialism is the perfect Utopian society in many ways.

    The systems that have failed, failed because of human greed and pursuit of personal gain.

    And we all know which system favours human greed the most.. After all, it embraces it fully. And that is the one we have been adopting, and the one which should stay. As long as there is proper regulation, it can't go wrong, really. Not today anyways.

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    Default Re: Rereading Karl Marx

    Hmm..back to Politics 101 and Economics 101.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Rereading Karl Marx

    Quote Originally Posted by bovine View Post
    Hmm..back to Politics 101 and Economics 101.
    maybe, i always enjoy talking to waileong about such things, because he brings water to the game. a lot of others don't, and that's really.. weird.

    what about you, what do you think?

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    Default Re: Rereading Karl Marx

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    what about you, what do you think?
    What do I think?? Hmmmm… There r 3 things I don’t discuss namely Religion,Politics and Camera Brands cos it will be never ending. However I’ll chip in a little bit (under the influence of good red wine )….....

    I agree with 99% of the things u said!

    I think Marx wasn’t wrong in a way (I still cannot decide whether Hitler is insane or a genius too) just that he was too idealistic in the wrong era. The world has changed drastically since the Communist Manifesto eg: population,climate,access to information.

    People who gained from capitalism have been trying to prove that Socialism,Fabianism,Communism r all wrong and that capitalism is the way to go. Economic crisis always brings out such debates isn't it. As the saying goes “Money is the root of all evils.” Human greed and selfishness creates unhappiness. We can't please everyone anyway.

    Failures and people who expect to be spoon fed complained that “the rich are getting richer and the poor r getting poorer” What they failed to comprehend is why the rich r still rich even if they lose $ during financial turmoil. Indeed Capitalism is the way to go. U r your own man and it’s fair if people who work hard for it obtained wealth one day. Look at those squatters and beggars on the streets of London…they choose to depend on state welfare instead of working cos they reckon that living on welfare makes them better off as compared to working in entry level jobs (after tax). Marx wants a classless society IIRC (Besides the Bourgeoisies and the Proletariats, what else did he look at?) However, putting aside the rich who obtained their wealth through inheritance or lottery, u r basically robbing those who became rich through sheer hard work by wanting communism.

    Again I agree that all systems failed because of human greed and as long as there r proper regulations, it can’t go too wrong. I think the finance and insurance industries r all turning into socialism now with their countries’ financial bailout. Look at Germany ….currently the working class r taking socialism seriously!

    I am Pro Capitalism cos it’s the way to go now. The failure of the Soviet Union n fall of the Berlin Wall has proven that imperialism and communism r the wrong systems in the 20th Century. Communism looks good in theory but it is not practical. People are getting more affluent and educated. In addition with the globalised world,there r plenty of opportunities nowadays. However,we can’t stop selfishness and personal gain at the expense of others. Marx wasn’t wrong when he predicted that capitalism will fail but he is wrong to say capitalism will finally fail.

    Just my 2c worth. *raise glass*

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    Default Re: Rereading Karl Marx

    Quote Originally Posted by Benign View Post
    Kaputalism ?



    System is fine, but to err is human
    and to forgive...Divine!

    Or should it be..............To moo...BOVINE!

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    Default Re: Rereading Karl Marx

    Quote Originally Posted by Sion View Post
    It's anatomically impossible.
    use both hands!!


    .................


    the system is perfect (nobody was able to prove otherwise), & we've got a few "capable & good" men to oversee that the system is "fine".

  16. #16

    Default Re: Rereading Karl Marx

    Quote Originally Posted by bovine View Post
    I agree with 99% of the things u said!
    Hahaha...You must be heavily intoxicated from your drinks.

    Back to your points.
    For discussion purpose, if we take away the human factors from the equation (eg. Selfishness, greediness, recklessness, irresponsible...), which system do you think will make a better choice for a society, is it Capitalism or Socialism?

    China has a very interesting economy and they are ruled by the communist party. Today, the whole world is looking to them as the savior to the current crisis, so what has they done right?
    Few years after the 97 Crisis, IMF praised Dr M for his ingenuity to implement the currency control, for the same group of people haave criticized fervently against his action.
    So what did Dr M realized or has learnt from the Capitalism West when he implemented the currency control?

  17. #17
    Senior Member Sion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rereading Karl Marx

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    And we all know which system favours human greed the most....
    That should be Canon or Nikon system. No?

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    Default Re: Rereading Karl Marx

    Quote Originally Posted by Silence Sky View Post
    Hahaha...You must be heavily intoxicated from your drinks.

    Back to your points.
    For discussion purpose, if we take away the human factors from the equation (eg. Selfishness, greediness, recklessness, irresponsible...), which system do you think will make a better choice for a society, is it Capitalism or Socialism?

    China has a very interesting economy and they are ruled by the communist party. Today, the whole world is looking to them as the savior to the current crisis, so what has they done right?
    Few years after the 97 Crisis, IMF praised Dr M for his ingenuity to implement the currency control, for the same group of people haave criticized fervently against his action.
    So what did Dr M realized or has learnt from the Capitalism West when he implemented the currency control?

    Personally, I prefer a mixed economy. Best of both worlds? Nothing is certain....
    Striving for a free market economy with a degree of government intervention is most ideal. Then again how do you balance the two. On one hand, everyone would love to have lower taxes. On the other, welfare for the poor is equally important too. Can we achieve the equilibrium?

    Every country is unique due to its own limitations in resources, technology and education...etc etc. So there can never be applied the same way.

    Whatever the crisis maybe, I strongly believe in a Chinese parable:

    Near China's northern borders lived a man well versed in the practices of Taoism. His horse, for no reason at all, got into the territory of the northern tribes. Everyone commiserated with him.

    "Perhaps this will soon turn out to be a blessing," said his father.

    After a few months, his animal came back, leading a fine horse from the north. Everyone congratulated him.

    "Perhaps this will soon turn out to be a cause of misfortune," said his father.


    Since he was well-off and kept good horses his son became fond of riding and eventually broke his thigh bone falling from a horse. Everyone commiserated with him.

    "Perhaps this will soon turn out to be a blessing," said his father.

    One year later, the northern tribes started a big invasion of the border regions. All able-bodied young men took up arms and fought against the invaders, and as a result, around the border nine out of ten men died. This man's son did not join in the fighting because he was crippled and so both the boy and his father survived.




    Maybe time and again in life, we need crisis of some sort. So, we know we are smarter or dumber?

  19. #19

    Default Re: Rereading Karl Marx

    1. There is no such thing as perfect world. Hence by your assertion, Marx cannot be right. QED.

    2. The individual's self-interest is the basis on which any economic ideology must be based. Any ideology which believes that man will give of himself freely to the state contradicts this and thus is self-defeating.

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    Marx was not wrong. He was simply too idealistic. Well, in that you could say he was wrong. In a perfect world, with perfect people and perfect leaders, socialism is the perfect Utopian society in many ways.

    The systems that have failed, failed because of human greed and pursuit of personal gain.

    And we all know which system favours human greed the most.. After all, it embraces it fully. And that is the one we have been adopting, and the one which should stay. As long as there is proper regulation, it can't go wrong, really. Not today anyways.

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    Default Re: Rereading Karl Marx

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong View Post
    1. There is no such thing as perfect world.

    2. The individual's self-interest is the basis on which any economic ideology must be based. Any ideology which believes that man will give of himself freely to the state contradicts this and thus is self-defeating.
    very true.

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