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Thread: Wedding Photographer Mishap: What to do?

  1. #101
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    Default Re: Wedding Photographer Mishap: What to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by godzilla60 View Post

    competition management: (ah...those uncle bobs)
    telling the aspiring photographers that you need to take the shot first and offering them your position and angle so that they will wait patiently for you to finish and try from your angle. also get the brothers to advise other uncle bobs nearby to wait and assure them they get their opportunities.
    Let's say 30 tables wedding dinner. If you do this for every table, it will be the wedding couple who will be tired and will rush the photog to hurry up.

  2. #102
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    Default Re: Wedding Photographer Mishap: What to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadpoet View Post
    We are all MISSING the point here, and blaming the photographer who was hired to do a job.

    At the end of the day, should we ask, WHY ON EARTH does uncle bob or cousin joe felt that they must, felt that they were entitled, and felt that was their duty to snap away?

    If uncle bob or cousin joe are such great photographers, and felt it's their duty, then they should have discussed this with the wedding couple, and volunteered their services before the official photographer was hired.

    Too many cooks spoil the soup. Same applies. Too many photographers ruin the picture.

    I am braced for rebuttal from the hot heads that their snaps saved the day because of official photographer did not deliver. I will say this again, they why not volunteer their services ahead of time and become the official photographer!!! duh.
    ah.....u have failed to see that the thread is not solely blaming the photographers....just as it is not nice that an official photographer refuses to shoot just because uncle bob is there, it is also not nice for uncle bob to shoot when an official photographer is there. in fact, it boils down to EQ and proper management of the circumstances. A photographer who is able to rise above the circumstances, managing the situation and yet deliver good photos will have more jobs than one who quits even before attempting to talk it out with uncle bob.

    also, i have failed to see any hot heads that their snaps saved the day..... in fact, i am not unconvinced that the official photographer will not miss a shot even if he is unhindered. also, i am unconvinced that an unofficial photographer will not be able to take a photo at any angle that may be better than the official photographer. why are u against another uncle bob who may be able to snap a better picture/different angle from u?

    also, maybe these uncle bobs/cousin joes/aunts/fathers/mothers/sisters/brothers actually have the approval to take pictures?
    G

  3. #103
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    Default Re: Wedding Photographer Mishap: What to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Makanator View Post
    Okay from what I can see from the postings here, perhaps some people has abit of misunderstanding of what is going on. So let me clarify this matter again:

    Wedding photographer(let's call him A) poses couple and shoot.
    After 1 shot, A moves away to prep the couple for another pose.
    My friend and uncle goes in, thinking that they are cleared for a shot or two.
    Misunderstanding occurs over "copyrighted" poses and A's refusal to work together(even when it is possible).
    Friend and uncle leaves scene to table.

    Hope i make things clearer abit. And please do not infer too much on the sulking.
    haha...the issue on copyrighted poses? show me the patent or trademark number before telling me about copyrighted poses. want the safest way to protect your copyrighted poses? dun shoot. dun print. keep it in your mind.....safe forever....haha
    G

  4. #104
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    Default Re: Wedding Photographer Mishap: What to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by canturn View Post
    Just to share some tips that has really worked, and my assistant photographers can vouch for that. The key here is to communicate and get the helpers/coordinators/bridal party to help you out. I don't do the group shots, and I find that establishing some of these does help my assistant get his job done very quickly, and I mean 60 tables in less than 40 minutes is entirely possible.

    1. Couples would have arrowed at least 4 helpers to help out during the group /table shots, usually right after the 2nd walk in/champ toasting.

    2. The key here is to get 2 tables ready before we even shoot it. There's no waiting for anyone because emcee has annouced that if you're not at the table that's too bad (no matter how big shot you are, no one's going to wait for you to finish smoking or peeing)

    3. No one is else is supposed to shoot, and the 4 helpers are there to enforce that. My assistant is to help make that happen. I always tell my assistants NEVER to take anyone's camera to shoot, whatever the circumstance is. When you've seen things like Uncle Bob's camera slipping off the hand of the helper (while trying to pass the camera to the photographer) into a bowl of drunken prawn broth, you'll understand why we don't touche other people's cameras. When one Uncle bob passes the camera to the photographer to shoot, the other people will follows, so think of how much time that's going to waste. Some of my couples does get their emcees to annouce that due to time constraint, the photographers will not be able to use anyone else's camera to shoot the group shots.

    4. Setting the target time the group shots is to finish will help to get pressure points going and comeon, if 40 tables are going to take 1 hour 30 minutes to complete, which happened to one of my relative's wedding, that's almost half the banquet time. Ask your couple whether they spent a year planning for the banquet for that to happen.

    5. Be firm, not kwai lan and do it with a smile. At the end of the day, you can't please everyone, but everyone has to know that you're paid to do your job well.


    professionalism

    gets the job done with minimal damage.
    G

  5. #105
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    Default Re: Wedding Photographer Mishap: What to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by helmiz View Post
    Encountered a similar incident before. Of course, I explained nicely but to no avail. I then turn offensive. What I did was,

    a) after I had taken the group photo, I informed loudly to the couple to proceed to the next table, giving him no chance to shoot.

    b) still no effect. I then turn to plan B. When it's his/her turn to shoot after me, I purposely blocked him just when he's about to shoot.

    c) still no effect. Plan C. Before I shoot, I tilted my flashhead directly to him/her and fire directly into his/her face. I then quickly turn the flash to my desired position and shoot again. Of course, after that I quickly move away from him/her.
    haha.....this is uncle bob - limited extreme edition....haha....

    man....this uncle bob is either blur or just simply unautomatic.....

    for the record, i have never seen any uncle bob taking every shot that the official photographer is taking......
    G

  6. #106
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    Default Re: Wedding Photographer Mishap: What to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by helmiz View Post
    Let's say 30 tables wedding dinner. If you do this for every table, it will be the wedding couple who will be tired and will rush the photog to hurry up.
    haha...that is true.....which means that the couple will be more than happy to tell the rest of the uncle bobs not to disturb....

    honestly, i have never seen any uncle bob following throughout and missing the food in the banquet...unless the food sucks....
    G

  7. #107

    Default Re: Wedding Photographer Mishap: What to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Makanator View Post
    They thought it was alright to join as the photographer was preparing for the next shot and not in the middle of a shoot.



    Yes i do agree on that point. But the method that the photographer handled the situation (on requesting my friend and his uncle for not shooting) could be better.



    On the point of "working together", I had stated in earlier posts in which my friend's uncle told the photographer that they could shoot from another angle while the couples are posing for the wedding photographer(without distracting either one of them).
    I do believe a quick plan could be made up on the spot. Isn't photography about having initiatives as well?



    On the point of taking things out-of-context, my friend told me from his experience word-by-word. He does have an account in Clubsnap but wishes to be Anonymous at this point of time.

    In regard to who the photographer actually was, my friend was not able to find out, so therefore we cannot have his point of view.


    I have tried to reply your queries to the best of my abilities and knowledge obtained from my friend. I do hope that what I can provide here should be insightful enough.
    After reading all the responses, all the comments, I think TS is still the one who did not get the points.

    The point are, 1) the official photographer is hired to deliver certain images, 2) the official photographer is solely responsible to make sure agreed on images are delivered, as agreed, 3) uncle bob was not engaged to nor expected to deliver any images to the wedding couple.

    The official photographer may be rude, or lacking in social skill, or offensive even to uncle bob, but if uncle bob did not intrude, all these unpleasantnesses will not have happened.

    In terms of whether the story is one side or not, it does not matter. If thephotographer failed to deliver the images as agreed, I am sure TS's friend would have passed on another story, "... wedding photographer failed to deliver ..." The photographer must deliver, and if said photographer does not like to work with other people shooting over his shoulder or waiting for some uncle bob to shoot inbetween his sets, then that is the photographer's style and work habits.

    Ifyou don't like it, they don't hire this particular photographer. I am sure there are many on CS who "freelances" and do not mind uncle bob shooting over, behind, and and between him. DUH!
    deadpoet
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  8. #108
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    Default Re: Wedding Photographer Mishap: What to do?

    You must think from the view of your customer, imagine you are the attending your relatives wedding and you are not the photog but someone else does and you are exactly in the same situation as you mention. What will you think? I am sure you will not recommend this photog to anybody you know. Worst still, in this kind of wedding services, the world is very small and someone else you know told you he is hiring the same photog without knowing his previous assignment has angered his customer and you suggest him to change the photog. This poor photog will have lesser and lesser customer.

    So for those photog who provide services out there, "CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT". You only get more assignment when your custmers are happy. Service quality is important. Please remember.
    ?

  9. #109
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    Default Re: Wedding Photographer Mishap: What to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Makanator View Post
    They thought it was alright to join as the photographer was preparing for the next shot and not in the middle of a shoot.



    Yes i do agree on that point. But the method that the photographer handled the situation (on requesting my friend and his uncle for not shooting) could be better.



    On the point of "working together", I had stated in earlier posts in which my friend's uncle told the photographer that they could shoot from another angle while the couples are posing for the wedding photographer(without distracting either one of them).
    I do believe a quick plan could be made up on the spot. Isn't photography about having initiatives as well?



    On the point of taking things out-of-context, my friend told me from his experience word-by-word. He does have an account in Clubsnap but wishes to be Anonymous at this point of time.

    In regard to who the photographer actually was, my friend was not able to find out, so therefore we cannot have his point of view.


    I have tried to reply your queries to the best of my abilities and knowledge obtained from my friend. I do hope that what I can provide here should be insightful enough.
    I don't really think there is a trademark pose and if uncle bobs want to join in and grab a few shots of the same pose, so be it. But it would be nice if they asked both the photog (considering the photog too time to pose the couple properly) and the couple first (extra time for uncle bob to shoot may mean less posed shots in the couple's album).

    It is best if they not shoot over the photog's shoulder. Like some of the pros have mentioned, uncle bobs should shoot before or after the main photog. Too many photogs shooting at the same time, will quite surely lead to straying eyes (most evident in table shots), or even red tinted faces (courtesy of focus assist light from uncle bob's camera). The latter is easy to resolve, quick check and shoot again. but experienced photogs would probably attest that the former might not be so easy to correct, even if you shout at the top of your lungs to gain attention (which is not very professional too btw).

    Why is this so? Because uncle bob's nephew cousin joe is in the table and cousin joe knows very well that he ain't gonna receive the shot the main photog took and it would be much easier to get the almost similar shot from uncle bob instead. So which camera does he look at? I think the answer to that is quite elementary.

    We as photographers, understands why the guests want to take snapshots here and there and I personally would never ever ask any of the guests to bugger off. We deal with the extra flashes and hope to get the best possible shot for the couple.

    The guests (uncle bobs included) hopefully understands too that the wedding is not only a joyous occasion, it is importantly, a once in a lifetime event for the couple, which most times, are preserved only by the beautiful shots the main photographers delivered.

    Understanding from all parties goes a long way.

  10. #110

    Default Re: Wedding Photographer Mishap: What to do?

    From most of the responses here, it seems that many of us have forgotten the human aspect of this business. For the couple, it is a once in a lifetime experience, and for their family - they probably get to attend weddings probably a once or twice a year. I know, wedding photographers see and attend weddings week after week, and see it as just a job and are able to identify all the "nuisense" relative cliches, but remember that for these "nuisences", it is their first and only time encountering it - and more importantly, they are attending the wedding of a relative with whom they have shared a bond lasting a lifetime.

    I might turn into a pontential flame bait for saying this, but it seems that some photographers speak as if the whole event revolves around them - isn't it supposed to be the special day of the couple - the clients... and by extension, the family? They may be irritating and might do things whick disrupts the work of the photographer, but the photographer must remember that he is first and foremost a service provider. Good PR is just as important as any technical aspect of the business, if not more.

    I'm not directing my above comments at anyone in this thread in particular, it's just that I had a bad experience at my sister's wedding last year. It was bad enough that the photographer was barking orders and directing everyone, but when I passed my phone to my sis to show her a congratutory sms from an overseas family friend, the photographer snapped at me and said he was in the middle of something (which I was unaware of and would have apologised for if I wasn't rudely snapped at). I just smiled at him and said in a half joking manner: "Oh hi! I'm the bride's brother and I changed her diapers and bathed her when she was little. And who the **** are you?" The guests around us just laughed out loud, albeit a little nervously, and the photographer chuckled sheepishly, but his face turned an even darker shade of black for the rest of the day.

  11. #111

    Default Re: Wedding Photographer Mishap: What to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ah_K View Post
    Why is this so? Because uncle bob's nephew cousin joe is in the table and cousin joe knows very well that he ain't gonna receive the shot the main photog took and it would be much easier to get the almost similar shot from uncle bob instead. So which camera does he look at? I think the answer to that is quite elementary.

    We as photographers, understands why the guests want to take snapshots here and there and I personally would never ever ask any of the guests to bugger off. We deal with the extra flashes and hope to get the best possible shot for the couple.

    The guests (uncle bobs included) hopefully understands too that the wedding is not only a joyous occasion, it is importantly, a once in a lifetime event for the couple, which most times, are preserved only by the beautiful shots the main photographers delivered.

    Understanding from all parties goes a long way.
    While writing a long story, Ah_K has already posted the points I was trying to get across - but in much less words!

  12. #112
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    Default Re: Wedding Photographer Mishap: What to do?

    Thumbs up for albinosage for telling off the rude fella hahah

  13. #113
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    Default Re: Wedding Photographer Mishap: What to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by MARTIN1023 View Post
    You must think from the view of your customer, imagine you are the attending your relatives wedding and you are not the photog but someone else does and you are exactly in the same situation as you mention. What will you think? I am sure you will not recommend this photog to anybody you know. Worst still, in this kind of wedding services, the world is very small and someone else you know told you he is hiring the same photog without knowing his previous assignment has angered his customer and you suggest him to change the photog. This poor photog will have lesser and lesser customer.

    So for those photog who provide services out there, "CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT". You only get more assignment when your custmers are happy. Service quality is important. Please remember.
    Handling a situation professionally and being able to deliver service quality is one. However, more than just service quality, I think the key issue here is about the understanding of your style and where you're coming from. Having established these right from the starts helps.

    I don't rig scenes or get couple or anyone to repeat something for the sake of getting that shot. So if Uncle Bob messes it up, that's too bad really. If customer don't accept this, which is fundamentally what my photography style is they can look for another photographer.

    For instance, guests passes you a camera, ask you to shoot for them, would you say yes? I won't because there's already enough cameras for me to handle, plus, what happens if you drops or spoil the camera, or suay suay erase the images in the camera?

    Yes, customer is always right. If a customer decides to engage your professional service, there has to be certain terms and boundaries that they have to accept as well, not everything also can.

    I use the analogy of dress code, if a customer chooses to go to a 5-star fine dining restaurant, he/she can't simply appear in t-shirt and jeans and flipflops, because the management will show you to the door. Now you can't tell them, "I'm the customer and I'm always right!" The same goes to customer who wants a certain photographer's style that is different from your average Joe's photos, then you can be dead sure that they are going to be some terms that deviate from the norm.

  14. #114
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    Default Re: Wedding Photographer Mishap: What to do?

    if you read my post properly, I stand for understanding on all sides (namely Couple, photographer and the guests)

    I never believe anyone should make any unnecessary comments / remarks which would make anybody else feel bad / unhappy.

    Ultimately, the most important customer is still the Couple (which i highlighted in my previous post) and nobody (photographer or guests) should jeopardize their day. While i fully agree that photographers must always have good PR, guests (close relatives included) scorning the photographer for whatever reason, may not be a good move too, as it might have an adverse effect on some photographers, which ultimately affects their work and the in turn the end products which the Couple receives.

    That's why i called for understanding and for all parties to work hand in hand to really make it a day for the couple to remember.
    Last edited by Ah_K; 26th October 2008 at 11:36 AM.

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    Default Re: Wedding Photographer Mishap: What to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by aeskywan View Post

    Perhaps times have changed and things are different now. But honestly is the spirit of the wedding still there? And end note the "my poses are copyrighted" is the dumbest thing I have heard in years.
    Personally, I prefer to do these portraits in private when they have my fullest attention, usually after before or after an event. Think about it, couple will be busy mingling with the guests, especially people whom they haven't met for years.


    For couples who are hiring the top end pros, I don't think they are expecting pictures to look like Uncle Bob's. Even if the angles (and in some cases, cameras) are similar, the finishing and editing work is going to be different from Uncle Bob's, if not I don't see how they can command a premium price.

  16. #116
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    Default Re: Wedding Photographer Mishap: What to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ah_K View Post
    if you read my post properly, I stand for understanding on all sides (namely Couple, photographer and the guests)

    I never believe anyone should make any unnecessary comments / remarks which would make anybody else feel bad / unhappy.

    Ultimately, the most important customer is still the Couple (which i highlighted in my previous post) and nobody (photographer or guests) should jeopardize their day. While i fully agree that photographers must always have good PR, guests (close relatives included) scorning the photographer for whatever reason, may not be a good move too, as it might have an adverse effect on some photographers, which ultimately affects their work and the in turn the end products which the Couple receives.

    That's why i called for understanding and for all parties to work hand in hand to really make it a day for the couple to remember.
    I do make it the client's responsibility to explain to the guests why they shouldn't get in the way; work closely with the best man/bride's maid/coordinator to get the message across while I can focus and get my job done. Putting it as one of the items from my T&C is one, but the underlying rationale of everyone wanting the best for the couple, will help get things done, and at the same time diffuse any potentially ugly situations.

  17. #117

    Default Re: Wedding Photographer Mishap: What to do?

    It looks like the thread has evolved from talking about how to react a photographer asking friends and family to stop copying his invented poses to other matters close to everybody's hearts But there are many good informative and educative posts, so kudos and thanks.

    I just wanted to play contrarian and say that any "invented pose" that attracts friends and family to copy probably isn't unique enough.

    And then, isn't copying a sincere form of flattery?

    On the matter of group shots, one method I have tried is to have direct eye contact with the subjects after composing the shot in the viewfinder. Of course, you have to be sure that your composition doesn't move too much after taking your eye from the viewfinder. No, I don't bring a tripod around I won't vouch that it works for you, but the idea is to have a presence larger than hiding your face behind a camera.

    I have seen a Tatler photographer getting posed shots by getting the attention of the subject quickly and then making snap shots - the camera is placed right next to his face. Then again, the groups are small and the guests have their hands full with champagne flutes rather than cameras

  18. #118

    Default Re: Wedding Photographer Mishap: What to do?

    This is very bad. You should not hesitate to advise your friend and his/her relatives to file a police report. Engage a QC to fight it to gain back their dignities.

    I pity them as they have invested in their camera gears and who know could have study the art and technique of photography for years, and to be told by someone to stop shooting beside me. This amount to insult of its worse kind to any well respected digital camera owners.

    I hope they have ate and able to digest their shark fin and abalone. Did they finished the desert? So sad for them if they lost their appetite.

  19. #119
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    Default Re: Wedding Photographer Mishap: What to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by canturn View Post
    .................................

    For instance, guests passes you a camera, ask you to shoot for them, would you say yes? I won't because there's already enough cameras for me to handle, plus, what happens if you drops or spoil the camera, or suay suay erase the images in the camera?

    ..............................
    lol, wasting couple's money to ask you to take a snap shot using PnS....

    anyway, if someone asking me to help to snap using their PnS, I smile and help them, when returning the camera, I tell them first shot is FREE, second shot onward is $20 per shot..... strangely, no one will ask me to help again...heheheh
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  20. #120
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    Default Re: Wedding Photographer Mishap: What to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by jopel View Post
    This is very bad. You should not hesitate to advise your friend and his/her relatives to file a police report. Engage a QC to fight it to gain back their dignities.

    I pity them as they have invested in their camera gears and who know could have study the art and technique of photography for years, and to be told by someone to stop shooting beside me. This amount to insult of its worse kind to any well respected digital camera owners.

    I hope they have ate and able to digest their shark fin and abalone. Did they finished the desert? So sad for them if they lost their appetite.
    uncle jopel...... should I read the message in your post the other way round??
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