what if the persons he offended were the groom's or bride's parents?
what if the persons he offended were the groom's or bride's parents?
In the uncle Bob's case, crediting one's work is not the first thing that should be on any self-respecting photog's mind. Let him shoot, what's the big deal? Unless he barges in without consideration, then yes, I'd kick his S.
Or let them shoot the signing of the solemnisation over our shoulders or worse...right in front of our lenses?
how about uncle bob suddenly whip out his camera just when u count 1,2...and at 3...a couple of the subjects in the group turn and look at uncle bob...while you screwed up...he simply take a walk away....
hmmm and what if there is uncle bob shooting over your shoulder and something happened such as the photographer tripping him or he is so clumsy to trip you...
I can go on and on
Let him shoot? So whats the BIG DEAL? Is not barging in but over your shoulders in your considerations?
I think u oughta take a walk and THINK!
You do not need to reply my post...u just need to think about it all over again...
I must have underestimated some of the insecurities here..I thought the TS's post is quite clear what uncle bob was trying to do(i.e take a pop shot at the pose, although using the term "model shoot" is a bit stupid of him) but some of the so called pros here are sounding as if their rice bowls would be taken when put in similar situations. That's the local scene for u..insecured, petty and empathy-leSS.
Where is the insecurities??
Seriously, pls dun OT and got the thread locked just for 1 guy immature comments.
Eat breath LIVERPOOL!!!
Both side are right for me i think.. however i think the photographer should have handled this is a much more tactful manner to stop them from taking.
As he might be losing potential if the photos from Uncle Bob turns out to be nice or to say the couple didnt buy the particular few prints that he took because they choose the photos from Uncle Bob and printed out from there.
With the market flooded with all the diy photo albums easily made, more couples would like to have more involvement in their own albums and are going to make their own after their wedding using the photos bought. so it make sense for the photographer to stop Uncle Bob from taking the photos..
The issue here was not about the barging in, it is about the consequences of a rip in the wall of a dam, metaphorically speaking. One drop versus a torrent.
Common sense would tell you that a wedding shoot places high demand on crowd management skills, and that includes ensuring as little intrusive background photography and not forgetting, with the right polite attitude.
Your clients do not owe you a living, and in a line that is reliant on human relationships, it is pertinent that one treats his clients (and their hangers-on) with a decent amount of courtesy, while ensuring your quality of work is not compromised.
One solution, hire an assistant to manage the crowd, not chase them, nor let them wash over you like an undammed river.
We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities. - Oscar Wilde
Maybe it's really the typical kiasuism at play in Singapore. And having studied and worked for a while overseas, I do think its indeed the insecurities of people here in general. You know, the way we've been brought up -- if I advise my classmate too much with her homework, I will LOSE OUT to her.
As some rightly said, give the couple a break, man. A wedding is a happy occasion. It's natural to expect friends and relatives to be taking shots of the couple all the time. Imagine yourself to be a non-photographer who is not into photography, and it's your favorite friend's or niece's wedding. It's intuitive that you will want to whip out your cam to get that shot.
I find some local photographers who have been posting here seem to have that "scared to lose mentality". No offence. I'm not saying Go ahead, let Uncle Tan (I prefer this as Bob sounds too Caucasian!) and Auntie Goh block your view to the point that you can't do your job. I think you have to know when to step in to let them know they've gone overboard. But here, what's the big deal really?
Let me cite 2 analogies to see if my point comes thru:
1. You travel overseas and in front of you is a beautiful landscape, you set up your tripod, and gleefully imagine you will get that kick a** shot to impress fellow CS when you return to Singapore. Then suddenly, you see people by your side, with their digicams, never mind if they're just tiny compacts or DSLRs better than yours. What are you going to do? Get jealous and chase them away? Tell them, "Hey guys, Buzz off! The landscape in front of us is mine!" Or tell them, "Quick, go ahead, shoot all you want. Cos after that, it's my turn." Ridiculous right?
There is a high chance that those people around you will get quite similar shots to what you compose. Or may not. You as the photographer, how do you REACT? If you are scared someone else is going to get a similar shot, it's clear your skills are not good enough and you don't have the mentality of a top photographer. Top photographers seriously can't be bothered the other people seemingly trying to vie for the same shot as them. Cos photography is an art. No matter how well you can copy the Sunflower, you can't be as famous Van Gough. Why do you think good singers never become famous even though they can sing well top hits by the original singers? There are other factors involved.
2. Have you seen photographers, pros or amateurs alike, whose flashes go Pop Pop Pop when a celebrity comes to town? If you are the official or press photographer, are you going to chase the amateurs away and say, Hey, stop stealing my shots!
And I'm sure many here are avid, non-official photographers who go shooting at concerts, sports, catwalk events, and the recently concluded F1 race here. Aren't you being one of Uncle Tan yourself in those situations?
Coming back to the wedding scenario, unless Uncle Tan is being a nuisance and your shadow by following you around, I don't think you have any right to tell him off. If you are afraid he's going to "steal" your shots, that's plainly jealousy and kiasuism at work for me. Maybe some kind of paranoia or insecurity.
Think about it: Is Uncle Tan just happening to be shooting at that point in time or is he following you all the way and get exact shots as you? You are the pro. Are you not confident enough that at the end of the day, you are the one who will provide the complete collection of nice pictures to the couple? If you think those few shots of Uncle Tan's will make you lose business, then clearly, you are not up to standards. Just for the record, it's quite impossible that even when two photographers stand side by side will they get very identical angles or poses. I thought this is a known fact?
Anyway, I think you guys really have the energy to go on and on with this discussion! I've enjoyed and am amused at some of the arguments that sprout out by others. I do feel it's gone quite out of hand somehow. We don't know the exact scenario of what happened between Uncle Tan and that photographer as related by the original poster of this thread. So it's better not to speculate so much.
As a final note, I can't help but read with disapproval some of those so-called pros who seem to think highly of themselves. I mean, your are ranked now among many of the normal pros. What is going to happen to you in 10 years time (a top notch photographer or just a "cameraman"?) or how big a money you will earn is irrelevant to this discussion. Good photographers never brag themselves. Their works and well mannered attitude speak for themselves. And they go on from there.
Last edited by Priscilia; 31st October 2008 at 11:16 PM.
they can take the same photos at the same time and place
but the end results will be different
thats the difference btw uncle bob and a paid photographer
Last edited by aeskywan; 1st November 2008 at 12:30 AM.
the issue there was stealing the pose. frankly i find it quite ridiculous
ultimately, the person directing the couple to pose is still the main photog and he has the idea in mind.
this is why i find the behaviour of the photog as described by TS to be rather ridiculous. if you were the photographer you may not like pple to disturb, but surely the reason is something other than a "copyrighted" pose, right?
but i do agree that shooting over the shoulder of the pro would be very irritating. as a guest, i'd aim mostly for candids and for pose shots, i'd point my camera down until the pro is done, then i lift it up and fire away. to avoid distracting the people.
Last edited by boyboy; 1st November 2008 at 05:22 PM.
and during solemnisation...why can't everyone just simple sit down at where the general guests of the ceremony and simply shoot from there...is there a need to document the signing of the ceremony at the table together with the main and 2nd photog?
Yes there are no signs that say u cannot shoot...but be considerate to the ceremony, to the couple, their parents, the official photographers and the justice of peace. Stay at your designated area and shoot from there.
Clients pay good money to get quality photos from their photographers, the main and 2nd photog also puts in alot of effort not to be in each other's frames. How would they feel if this uncle bob keep appearing in most of the photographs.
I'm pretty sure most experienced photographers have a certain tolerance to the enthusiasm of uncle bobs, have a job to deliver, and have good solutions to any nuisance that may arise in their job
Is the issue stealing the pose? Dude, i mentioned it as an example. Get over it. The main issue is not stealing the pose. Its more then that.
How has the photographer's behaviour been established? I read through all 10 post from TS and none of them mentioned that the Main photographer's behaviour and attitude has been established.
So i'll put it straight forward now. the only stand i have in this is, i have no problems with uncle bob or cousin joe shooting along side with me. But at the same time i have also requested that they stop shooting via the couple. The ONLY time i will do this is when uncle bob has repeatedly cut in front of my lens during crucial moments. So stop assuming over EXAMPLES given by me as word.
most of these people don't know the effects their flashes have on you...
a successful businessman (a professional photographer running his own biz should be considered as one) anticipates problems such as these and start to manage the problems by working around it via cooperation. (read PR skills).
dun let extremist views make u hate the uncle bobs. most of them can be managed except for the little few who are the extremes.