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Thread: Electricity bills up 21%

  1. #161
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    Default Re: Electricity bills up 21%

    Quote Originally Posted by foreverlovex View Post
    yup. how to make sense to write off billions of dollars when it is supposed to be depreciated over 15 yrs or more.
    where did you get that figure? since the project was never undertaken, all the numbers are as good as vaporware.

    electric trains took over steam engines of old, didn't it? that investment paid of handsomely. or we can all grind R&D into a halt fearing depreciation of current technologies...

    Quote Originally Posted by foreverlovex View Post
    Over time the conversion efficiency will drop due to wear and tear on the panel surface.

    The main maintenance cost would be when it is time to change the inverter.
    what does not wear & tear? is the current way to generate electricity wearproof & tearproof? the drop in efficiency will most likely be mitigated by newer generations of solar cells.

    to remain as things are, is not the way forward.

  2. #162

    Default Re: Electricity bills up 21%

    Quote Originally Posted by Silence Sky View Post
    Given the scenario, I will let my call option expire if the strike price is less than $100 and buy at the spot rate $55. But that does not mean I have lost $45, what I have lost is the premium I pay for the call option which is much less than $45.

    This brings us to the 2nd part about vesting contract as SP Services does not produce electricity.

    http://www.ema.gov.sg/doc/vestingcontract.pdf

  3. #163

    Default Re: Electricity bills up 21%

    Quote Originally Posted by sORe-EyEz View Post
    where did you get that figure? since the project was never undertaken, all the numbers are as good as vaporware.

    electric trains took over steam engines of old, didn't it? that investment paid of handsomely. or we can all grind R&D into a halt fearing depreciation of current technologies...
    Singapore generation companies when under PUB bought a few steam generating units. The steam plants are still there.....these days the new owners converting them to cogen plants liao......

  4. #164

    Default Re: Electricity bills up 21%

    Quote Originally Posted by TheQuestion View Post
    same arguement can be made for conventional power generator as well.
    yes that why they need to be refurbished here and there. but for solar the cost of inverter.....

  5. #165
    Senior Member zac08's Avatar
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    Default Re: Electricity bills up 21%

    Quote Originally Posted by Silence Sky View Post
    Hi Foreverlovex:

    We have joined this forum for sometime now.
    We have had a few discussions on the privatization of state run companies.
    History and experience has proved to us that is not working in our Singapore Economy.

    1) They try to create two broadcasting company - Failed.
    2) They try to create two Rails operators - End result is fare hike.

    We are just trying to create a false sense of free economy. Let's face it, MIW just don't want to sudsidise you and do not want to play the bad guy. So when there is fare hike, they will say it purely business decision since it is privatised and it not MIW's problem anymore.
    But look who’s still controlling the Telecommunication after they liberalised the telco sector.
    I have not seen any efficiency in SG's methods...

    Their privatization efforts have been futile when the monopoly is TOO strong.

    How do you expect to win?
    Michael Lim
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  6. #166
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    Default Re: Electricity bills up 21%

    Quote Originally Posted by foreverlovex View Post
    This brings us to the 2nd part about vesting contract as SP Services does not produce electricity.

    http://www.ema.gov.sg/doc/vestingcontract.pdf
    but dun we pay all the same? whether SP produces the electricity matters to wad end?

    Quote Originally Posted by foreverlovex View Post
    Er........the batteries are not those in digital cams or cells phones. A more appropriate example would be electric powered cars which run on battery.

    The problem is there is still a long way to go before demand catches. High electricity prices and oil prices, may provide the drive for demand to catch up faster.

    that i know lah, cant be the size of the puny batteries. lol. every initial technology have a long way before demand catches up. but to shelf the idea prematurely, how wise is it?

  7. #167
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    Default Re: Electricity bills up 21%

    Quote Originally Posted by zac08 View Post
    I have not seen any efficiency in SG's methods...

    Their privatization efforts have been futile when the monopoly is TOO strong.

    How do you expect to win?
    cant win them, join them!

    neh, thatz how we win....

  8. #168
    Senior Member zac08's Avatar
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    Default Re: Electricity bills up 21%

    Quote Originally Posted by sORe-EyEz View Post
    cant win them, join them!

    neh, thatz how we win....
    How?

    My name not small Lee...
    Michael Lim
    My Flickr Site

  9. #169
    Senior Member egnaro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Electricity bills up 21%

    disappointment. imagine such increment happen in other country. what will happen?
    Life is like Photography, to improve, you have to keep shooting!

  10. #170

    Default Re: Electricity bills up 21%

    Quote Originally Posted by sORe-EyEz View Post
    but dun we pay all the same? whether SP produces the electricity matters to wad end?




    that i know lah, cant be the size of the puny batteries. lol. every initial technology have a long way before demand catches up. but to shelf the idea prematurely, how wise is it?
    Yes. it is a matter of time long vs short. As Keynes put it, in the long run, we are all dead.

    of coz we pay. we use we pay. We have choices. We can buy our own generating unit or don't use electricity.

    According to the IMD ranking, we are not that bad considering we import all our fuel.

  11. #171
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    Default Re: Electricity bills up 21%

    Quote Originally Posted by zac08 View Post
    How?

    My name not small Lee...
    sORe-Lee lah, i oso no idea how. got increase 'just swallow' loh...

    Quote Originally Posted by foreverlovex View Post
    Yes. it is a matter of time long vs short. As Keynes put it, in the long run, we are all dead.

    of coz we pay. we use we pay. We have choices. We can buy our own generating unit or don't use electricity.

    According to the IMD ranking, we are not that bad considering we import all our fuel.
    lol. is that wad you call choice?... we are not that bad, just bad enough will do... we din pay to get to this you know....

  12. #172
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    Default Re: Electricity bills up 21%

    Quote Originally Posted by egnaro View Post
    disappointment. imagine such increment happen in other country. what will happen?
    some1 called The Flash will appear in times of high electricity demand!

  13. #173
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    Default Re: Electricity bills up 21%

    With the current price hike, I am sure VR-man is glad he is not in service anymore. If not, sure jialat man. Imagine his operating costs go up, how like to save people like that?? Sigh...

  14. #174

    Default Re: Electricity bills up 21%

    they simply want the dividend that gave to us return back to them...

  15. #175

    Default Re: Electricity bills up 21%

    Quote Originally Posted by sORe-EyEz View Post
    sORe-Lee lah, i oso no idea how. got increase 'just swallow' loh...



    lol. is that wad you call choice?... we are not that bad, just bad enough will do... we din pay to get to this you know....
    what to do when you r in Singapore. How about we rejoin Malaysia? great ideA?

  16. #176

    Default Re: Electricity bills up 21%

    Quote Originally Posted by oTaRu View Post
    they simply want the dividend that gave to us return back to them...
    how come? the gencos under vesting contracts only one of them is wholly owned by Temasek.

  17. #177

    Default Re: Electricity bills up 21%

    Just trying to clarify on your electricity bill.....INCREASES

    1. SP Services is not the one unless you think there is billing/meter error.
    SP Services just bills you for the electricity bill and it buys electricity on behalf of non-contestable consumers ("NCC") (that is household) from the electricity at vesting price (http://www.ema.gov.sg/doc/faq_vc.pdf). The tariffs for NCC is approved by Energy Market Authority ("EMA").
    (http://www.spservices.com.sg/news/Pr...-29-Sep-08.pdf).

    Singapore Power Group of Companies are basically the operator of "monopoly" services. Such as transmission grid, gas pipelines, billing services, meter reading, etc. It does not produce electricity to sell. Basically, they can't "chop" you for electricity prices as they are price regulated every 5 years or so for operating the "monopoly services". Production of electricity is not a monopoly. Currently there are 6 active generation companies in the market (including NEA).

    2. Why forward Oil Prices?
    This one has to go back to the vesting contract as SP Services is required to purchase electricity from the pool at vesting price. Vesting price is linked to 3 months forward oil prices. You can read up on vesting contract at http://www.ema.gov.sg/Electricity/vesting.php

    3. Who are in the vesting contract?
    6 generation companies in Singapore (does not include NEA and only 5 are active). Currently, only 1 is wholly owned by Temasek. 3 of them wholly foreign owned. 2 of them listed companies with partial govt ownership.

    4. What is the market price of electricity now?
    Alot of ppl don't know that Singapore has an electricity market. The prices are determined by demand and supply and will change per half an hr period, basically something like SGX. Most big users of electricity buy from electricity retailers who in turn buy from the electricity pool and the retailers at the same time entered into a contract for differences with the generation companies. You can check the latest electricity prices at http://www.emcsg.com/n390,20.html.


    Just to summarise before I go back to my books......
    1. SP Services/ Singapore Power Group just passed through what they contracted for under the vesting contract with the 6 generation companies.
    2. There are pros and cons to a vesting contract. The 21% price increase is a typical example of a CON.
    3. Plenty of Singaporeans like to blame government or a target (e.g. Singapore Power) for anything and everything without looking into the details or rather they only look at fact: 21% increase in electricity tariffs. 1st thing that comes to their mind.....must be the government. Not surprisingly with the government big involvement in Singapore economy.
    4. It is a fact that billions are written off. I just google....and found this http://singapore.usembassy.gov/uploa...yGas_Jun04.pdf
    5. I am just a (relatively old) student trying to put the facts across - pls don't flame me.
    Last edited by foreverlovex; 2nd October 2008 at 09:15 PM.

  18. #178

    Default Re: Electricity bills up 21%

    Quote Originally Posted by foreverlovex View Post
    Just trying to clarify on your electricity bill.....INCREASES

    1. SP Services is not the one unless you think there is billing/meter error.
    SP Services just bills you for the electricity bill and it buys electricity on behalf of non-contestable consumers ("NCC") (that is household) from the electricity at vesting price (http://www.ema.gov.sg/doc/faq_vc.pdf). The tariffs for NCC is approved by Energy Market Authority ("EMA").
    (http://www.spservices.com.sg/news/Pr...-29-Sep-08.pdf).

    Singapore Power Group of Companies are basically the operator of "monopoly" services. Such as transmission grid, gas pipelines, billing services, meter reading, etc. It does not produce electricity to sell. Basically, they can't "chop" you for electricity prices as they are price regulated every 5 years or so for operating the "monopoly services". Production of electricity is not a monopoly. Currently there are 6 active generation companies in the market (including NEA).

    2. Why forward Oil Prices?
    This one has to go back to the vesting contract as SP Services is required to purchase electricity from the pool at vesting price. Vesting price is linked to 3 months forward oil prices. You can read up on vesting contract at http://www.ema.gov.sg/Electricity/vesting.php

    3. Who are in the vesting contract?
    6 generation companies in Singapore (does not include NEA and only 5 are active). Currently, only 1 is wholly owned by Temasek. 3 of them wholly foreign owned. 2 of them listed companies with partial govt ownership.

    4. What is the market price of electricity now?
    Alot of ppl don't know that Singapore has an electricity market. The prices are determined by demand and supply and will change per half an hr period, basically something like SGX. Most big users of electricity buy from electricity retailers who in turn buy from the electricity pool and the retailers at the same time entered into a contract for differences with the generation companies. You can check the latest electricity prices at http://www.emcsg.com/n390,20.html.


    Just to summarise before I go back to my books......
    1. SP Services/ Singapore Power Group just passed through what they contracted for under the vesting contract with the 6 generation companies.
    2. There are pros and cons to a vesting contract. The 21% price increase is a typical example of a CON.
    3. Plenty of Singaporeans like to blame government or a target (e.g. Singapore Power) for anything and everything without looking into the details or rather they only look at fact: 21% increase in electricity tariffs. 1st thing that comes to their mind.....must be the government. Not surprisingly with the government big involvement in Singapore economy.
    4. It is a fact that billions are written off. I just google....and found this http://singapore.usembassy.gov/uploa...yGas_Jun04.pdf
    5. I am just a (relatively old) student trying to put the facts across - pls don't flame me.

    Bro, are you Cheng Hu lang?
    Very heavy stuff, need some time to go through and understand.

  19. #179
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    Default Re: Electricity bills up 21%

    Quote Originally Posted by foreverlovex View Post
    what to do when you r in Singapore. How about we rejoin Malaysia? great ideA?
    thatz your idea, not mine.

    at the end of the day, has privatising energy market lead to a more efficient outfit? since major sentiment is that they just pass the increase to consumers...

  20. #180

    Default Re: Electricity bills up 21%

    Quote Originally Posted by Silence Sky View Post
    Bro, are you Cheng Hu lang?
    Very heavy stuff, need some time to go through and understand.
    Er......who is cheng hu lang?

    Hopefully someone will go thru it......then start whacking it correctly.

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