Calling Canon strobists -- Please help with multiple flash setups!

[David]

I think using multiple flash setups is the least mentioned/discussed toicc over here and perhaps elsewhere in the photography forums.

Wish there can be a sticky thread here dealing specifically on Flash photography.

I think so far, many are simply contended with fixing some form of diiffuser onto their flash, fire, let the E-TTL decide, and Done. That's a pity. Cos I feel there is so much more that our Canon flashes can do, even for the affordable 430EX that we have not yet explored.

I'm no exception. I've used Canon flashes for years and I've never dabbled with the Manual controls such as using fractional powers of the flash, or controlling the zoom on the flash.

They all seem alien to me!

I've been searching high and low for a decent book or discussion on the net but no one quite teaches clearly or specifically how it should be done. (I suspect many full time pros hardly use these functions themselves.)

I've seen multiple flash setup sample pics and I'm totally sold on getting a second Canon flash to complement my 430EX.

Can some of you strobists kindly share where I can get more info on learning such setups (books or on the Net). Or perhaps you can also share some of your works here? Would be grateful for that.

THANK YOU!

[Headshotzx]

Hi David,

All I ever read about multi-flash setups was from www.strobist.com ...

I would say that unless you have a second body for event type of shooting, you don't exactly need another canon flash.

For the price of a 580EXII, you could get 2x 43" umbrellas (S$80) , 2 lightstands (S$90), 2 radio receivers from ruby photo (S$100), 1 radio transmitter from ruby photo (S$50), 2x hotshoe connectors (S$40) and still have money left over for a Vivitar 285HV or second-hand Nikon SB28 or SB80X.

Unless you need E-TTL for quick-changes without having to run around adjusting manually, I'd recommend using the cheaper radio triggers and use manual mode flashes. That'll enable you to save more money or park the money into umbrellas, lightstands and all that jazz.

Cheers
Zexun

[SianZronG]

just that i agree... but you can only do this with alot of time , which is usually the case when you are on location shooting. unless you are maybe looking for a quick solution then 580 with 430s are the easiest way out or laziest way out =p

and 1 golden rule, die die must try. If you never do try , you will never know how it works =)

[David]

Thanks Zexun for the useful input!

I'm not quite into umbrellas and radio triggers yet. Though that could be in my plan perhaps a year from now.

Right now, I would like to venture into a "cleaner" setup, using main flash on camera as Master, and a slave flash to light the background or provide secondary lighting on subjects to provide that "3D" effect.

[SianZronG]

be warned canon IR sensors are not that friendly. they can only work in limited range and they usually get in the frame cause it has to be in Line of Sight unless you are doing a zoom shot. I use them during out door shoots and they work but sometimes in a series of 10 shots only 3 fire off.. which gets irrtating sometimes....

[Headshotzx]

Originally Posted by David Thanks Zexun for the useful input! I'm not quite into umbrellas and radio triggers yet. Though that could be in my plan perhaps a year from now. Right now, I would like to venture into a "cleaner" setup, using main flash on camera as Master, and a slave flash to light the background or provide secondary lighting on subjects to provide that "3D" effect.

No prob, glad I could help.


This is what an umbrella can do. Direct flashes aren't the way to go if you want "3D" shots, because the light is uneven (or harsh, if it's near). I shot this with just a 580EXII bounced into an umbrella (a one-umbrella setup that's mobile).

If you're always pressed for time, a 580EXII + 430EXII with ETTL usage is the way to go. If you want the cheaper route and might want to get into umbrellas in the future, radio triggers and cheaper flashes are the way to go.

All the best for your search!

Cheers
Zexun

[David]

Originally Posted by SianZronG be warned canon IR sensors are not that friendly. they can only work in limited range and they usually get in the frame cause it has to be in Line of Sight unless you are doing a zoom shot. I use them during out door shoots and they work but sometimes in a series of 10 shots only 3 fire off.. which gets irrtating sometimes....

oh wow, that bad huh...

i've read that the IR works better indoors.... Is that why people use radio triggers instead?

I'm thinking of getting the 580EX II but have to think carefully lest it becomes a white elephant. And it's not exactly cheap.

Guess I have to learn by trial and error.

[xl1]

im using Canon camera with Nikon Flash 2x SB-26 2x SB28 (both model cost me $100 - $200 each) with pocket wizard, u want wireless help your self to learn using manual flash, after a while you can use a cheap flash as long as it support manual mode.

[David]

Originally Posted by xl1 im using Canon camera with Nikon Flash 2x SB-26 2x SB28 (both model cost me $100 - $200 each) with pocket wizard, u want wireless help your self to learn using manual flash, after a while you can use a cheap flash as long as it support manual mode.

I see.. So it isn't really necessary to use Canon flashes for slaves? I'll read up more on that. Tnx.

Then is there any advantage to using Canon flashes? E-TTL function as opposed to manual?

[SianZronG]

Originally Posted by David oh wow, that bad huh... i've read that the IR works better indoors.... Is that why people use radio triggers instead? I'm thinking of getting the 580EX II but have to think carefully lest it becomes a white elephant. And it's not exactly cheap. Guess I have to learn by trial and error.

It works. but you have to becareful how to aim the slave flash. But it REALLY saves alot of time as almost everything is auto matic, just point in at the spot requiring some light and press the shutter. After which compensate via EV+/- to adjust the flash output. as i have a 430 and 580, i use the 580 purely for remote triggering.

[David]

Originally Posted by SianZronG It works. but you have to becareful how to aim the slave flash. But it REALLY saves alot of time as almost everything is auto matic, just point in at the spot requiring some light and press the shutter. After which compensate via EV+/- to adjust the flash output. as i have a 430 and 580, i use the 580 purely for remote triggering.

Yah, that's what I'm thinking. E-TTL is prob more convenient. But the price is in investing for another Canon flash I suppose. I like to shoot "on the go" for now.

So you are using the 580EX sort of like the Canon ST-E2 transmitter?

[Headshotzx]

David, you mentioned "on the go". Would that mean that you'd only get 1 or 2 shots of somebody or something and that's it? If you're able to go the manual flash way, you will learn more and quite possibly learn a lot more.

Being "mobile" and "on the go" doesn't mean anything if your first test shot in the flash setup is perfect already. I did just that for my school's band dinner: 580EXII bounced into reflective umbrella, constant power.

How I set up was this:
- Shoot a scene in Av mode and take note of the shutter speed. It was 1/30 f/8 ISO800 for a correct exposure.
- Put camera in manual mode, and make the shutter speed 2 stops faster (1/125).
- Add in one flash, and keep testing for which flash output is good. I settled for 1/4power @ +2/3EV

The above took me 2 minutes to setup, and the umbrella setup took me another 2 min to setup. So within 5 minutes, I got a mobile "on the go" flash that I brought around the function room to take pics of groups with constant lighting. If the people were too far away, I dropped the shutter speed to 1/60 to get more light on the sensor. If they were too near, I upped it to 1/200.

Sec School Band Dinner Pics

Constant lighting was objective, and I think I achieved that for most of the shots.


You must understand that Canon's flash IR system isn't that useful after a while. The 2 flashes must be able to see each other's IR module (the black thing) and they must not be more than 5m away from each other. Indoors, that's okay. Outdoors, you'd have a problem.

If, however, you can get everything to work out, indeed it is definite a lot fast if you want to change things quickly.

Here's a 3-flash setup. On-camera 580EXII bounced, off camera 580EXII to the right of camera direct flash, off camera 430EX to the left of camera, direct flash again.


As you can see, it's quite (very) harsh.

If you want "3D", you'd want umbrellas or softboxes. If you want umbrellas or softboxes, then you'd want radio triggers, not E-TTL canon IR because it might not sense the flash etc etc.

Cheers
Zexun

[sprewell]

Haha. ok just to share with my fellow cs-ers. Heres what i did before:

Use an ST-E2 to trigger two 580EXII (one hairlight and other mounted to a ring flash adaptor),
at the same time i used a pc cord to trigger studio flash for background lighting.

Its actually very fun to manupilate light in this manner.

[flipfreak]

best resource will be strobist.com

most simple method to use multiple flash is to use the canon wireless system. any other alternatives means u need to be familiar with lighting ratios and etc because its all manual mode from there on.

my most recent attempt at offshoe shooting. pardon the harshness of the light on the left. an oversight from me failing to use a flag.

[David]

Zexun,

Thanks for your elaborate reply.

I saw your school band shots. So all of them were done using single 580EX into the umbrella? Do you have any shot where it's single direct flash?

You used an f/8 exposure. Was that to give you a less shallow DOF?

And you settled for 1/4 flash power at +2/3 EV. So these are the 2 parameters you adjusted by trial and error to get what you want?

Thanks...

[Headshotzx]

Originally Posted by David Zexun, Thanks for your elaborate reply. I saw your school band shots. So all of them were done using single 580EX into the umbrella? Do you have any shot where it's single direct flash? You used an f/8 exposure. Was that to give you a less shallow DOF? And you settled for 1/4 flash power at +2/3 EV. So these are the 2 parameters you adjusted by trial and error to get what you want? Thanks...

David,

All the group pics (other than one with slighy camera shake) were shot with the umbrella. The others were shot with bounce card on-camera.

I never ever use direct flash. Even if it's outdoors, I prefer to use a bounce card (I use white acrylic board: thread link) or the 580EXII built-in bounce card, because the light is way softer. It's only when the subject is more than 10m away from me (a bird, or maybe some thief at the opposite block that I want to capture red-handed), only then will I use direct flash.

Oh, and I posted a multiple direct flash picture 3 posts above =)

You are correct regarding the aperture. A rule of thumb for photographing groups is: one row, f/4; 2 rows, f/5.6; 3 rows; f/8 where you use a 50mm perspective lens (Full-frame camera equiv).

So I settled for f/8 because I knew I'd take group pictures with quite a few rows. With that in mind, I wanted a good shutter speed so that slight movement can be frozen, so I went for a slightly faster speed of 1/80 - 1/200.

So, there are 2 variables that I won't change. Aperture (f/8) and ISO (800). Then I moved on to my flash. I first shot at 1/4 power, and I realised 1/50 gave me a correct exposure. I wanted a faster shutter speed, so I increased the shutter speed by 2/3 stops, and increased the flash output by 2/3 stops. So now my background is 2/3 darker, but my subjects are the correct exposure.

The +2/3EV part is also adjusting power output, so what you mentioned is actually only one factor If you use your flash in manual, you can see that it's 1/2, then 1/2 + 1/3EV, +2/3EV, then 1/1 (for 580EXII, for 430EX it's 1/2 stop increments).

So to get what I want, the 2 parameters that I set by trial and error is the flash power output, and the shutter speed.

Cheers
Zexun

[J-Chan]

quite a simple 4 flash setup, all on equal power except my 430EXII.. one gripe I have about the Canon IR wireless system: No 2nd Curtain Sync!

[catchlights]

you get better and consistent results in manual mode for multiple flashes set up.

IR trigger only works well in (small) indoor area.

good (expensive) ratio trigger work far better than the cheap one.

strobist.com is the best source for such info

[nyist]

Can anyone recommend me a radio trigger (cheap & good) ? Available in S'pore. I'm currently using a 430EX.
Thanks.

[Headshotzx]

Originally Posted by nyist Can anyone recommend me a radio trigger (cheap & good) ? Available in S'pore. I'm currently using a 430EX. Thanks.

Already stated above. Impact RF-616 radio triggers from Ruby Photo.